Matter or consciousness?

[Birch]

We're in the Vedanta subforum!

DODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODO!

 

 

 

Does this D.O?

 

Sure, fine for those chairs and leaves huh.

 

Edit. Media fiddling

Edited November 16, 2011 by -K-

[Birch]

Excellent point - my apologies if I sound preachy.

I've given up discussing this stuff with the gen. pop. entirely for that very reason.

I only discuss it with other like-minded fools interested in worrying about this metaphysical crap, like us.

That is why I hang out here.

And I don't mean to preach - just sharing my perspective and understanding relative to the question at hand, that is every bit as flawed and inaccurate as anyone else's.

 

 

PS - Q: If I feel a oneness and MH feels a twoness, who is "correct"?

 

A: Both, I think....

That's ok Steve:-) At least you didn't tell me my issue with your post was on account of my ego and my subconscious subtly attracting my flawed personality into a moment ripe for resolution but doomed to repeat or something:-)

You're not actually worried about this stuff, are you?..

[3bob]

And what of "preaching" to not preach about what one takes as preaching... yet many others don't and the basis of the website doesn't?

 

Thus I wonder why certain people even bother to throw stones or comment on stones and other subjects around here and instead don't join sites where mystical stuff is ignored out of hand for its non-proofs and or silliness. Are such types here to preach to or counter those they see as being misled because of their interest in and experiences with unprovable mystical stuff, if so (and you know who you are) you are barking up the wrong tree imo...

 

Om

Edited November 16, 2011 by 3bob

[doc benway]

That's ok Steve:-) At least you didn't tell me my issue with your post was on account of my ego and my subconscious subtly attracting my flawed personality into a moment ripe for resolution but doomed to repeat or something:-)

You're not actually worried about this stuff, are you?..

I love you exactly as you are!

Worried about it?

Not anymore - I used to be obsessed, now I still find it very interesting but more entertaining than distracting.

Realizing that I'll never understand it but if I stop trying to, I'm already living it... that helped.

[Birch]

And what of "preaching" to not preach about what one takes as preaching... yet many others don't and the basis of the website doesn't?

 

Thus I wonder why certain people even bother to throw stones or comment on stones and other subjects around here and instead don't join sites where mystical stuff is ignored out of hand for its non-proofs and or silliness. Are such types here to preach to or counter those they see as being misled because of their interest in and experiences with unprovable mystical stuff, if so (and you know who you are) you are barking up the wrong tree imo...

 

Om

Esoteric much?

Hmm, I bother throwing stones because I am patently unfavourable towards religion of any kind yet I have a set of experiences in meditation that I've found a bunch of people to talk through with. Yes, the monotheisms point at such things but we a) know that ain't it know that some of them have led to heinous acts in the real world over millenia c) approach tentatively that despite the trappings there may still be "some truth" that can be found via them if you start thinking (or practicing)

I also listen to rocks:-)

[Marblehead]

The flaw in your logic is that it fails to recognize the underlying connection between the experiencer and the experienced.

Between the organism and environment.

Between the sentient and the non-sentient and between one sentient and another.

 

But Steve, this has nothing to do with whether or not the rock is self-aware/conscious.

 

My looking at the rock does not give the rock consciousness. In fact, it give the rock nothing. Now, if I threw the rock into the lake than the rock would have a very long bath.

[Marblehead]

 

PS - Q: If I feel a oneness and MH feels a twoness, who is "correct"?

 

A: Both, I think....

 

Yea!!! I get to agree with you!

[Marblehead]

... bother to throw stones ...

 

I throw stones into the lake in order to give them a bath.

[doc benway]

But Steve, this has nothing to do with whether or not the rock is self-aware/conscious.

 

My looking at the rock does not give the rock consciousness. In fact, it give the rock nothing. Now, if I threw the rock into the lake than the rock would have a very long bath.

Of course it does, the universe is self aware, the rock is not other than the universe.

 

 

I love ya brother!

 

 

You fucking rock killer!

[Birch]

The usual thing i think the D.O. folks would say is that it's a mutual giving. I've pondered this one a while and come up with the idea that the rock is within my consciouness so by that it is "consciousness" itself. It became part of my consciouness and became consciouness because of the act of seeing. Then we get into the misattribution issue. I think logic "works" in this one because of the nature of logic, not because of reality. So you could agree to the argument logically but it wouldn't have any basis in reality (or the order would be "wrong"). But since "order" is a linear function and reality obviously isn't then that argument would get shot as well. I think, I think I'm rambling a bit, sorry!

[Birch]

Just so you know, the rock is my grandmother in 5E so no throwing:-p

[Apech]

But Steve, this has nothing to do with whether or not the rock is self-aware/conscious.

 

My looking at the rock does not give the rock consciousness. In fact, it give the rock nothing. Now, if I threw the rock into the lake than the rock would have a very long bath.

 

Marblehead you only exist because the rocks are watching you . Don't get paranoid now.

 

... but seriously I want to pursue the question of consciousness/ sentience. If we agree about plants then that's a start. Plants with some kind of sentience. They have no brains or complex nervous systems ... so at least their sentience is not the product of complexity. This suggests perhaps that the complexity we have in our brains and bodies is just a vehicle to allow us to express our consciousness rather than the basis for it.

 

I suggested a long time ago that the interactivity of particles was the basis of sentience in 'higher' levels of life. Here is a Feynman diagram of two electrons interacting.

 

The interaction which is shown as a photon exchange is the equivalent of one electron saying to the other ... hey I'm over here ... move over will you. Could this not be the basis for what develops as sentience???

 

Anyone?

[dwai]

But Steve, this has nothing to do with whether or not the rock is self-aware/conscious.

 

My looking at the rock does not give the rock consciousness. In fact, it give the rock nothing. Now, if I threw the rock into the lake than the rock would have a very long bath.

Mh,

 

Are we self-aware in deep sleep? If not, then are we then lacking in consciousness under such circumstances?

[Marblehead]

Of course it does, the universe is self aware, the rock is not other than the universe.

 

Of course it does Steve - from your perspective.

 

You fucking rock killer!

 

I love marbles though!

[Birch]

Good post Apech:-) Hmm, why is it when I explain the same thing questions of kitchen experiments come up and when Feynman does it with a diagram he gets kudos:-)

Nah, not important, I didn't do the math/physics work and Feynman sounds like a non-pathalogical human:-)

 

Edit. More typos

Edited November 16, 2011 by -K-

[dwai]

We're in the Vedanta subforum!

DODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODO!

 

Ahem, be careful there might be a buddhabum attack for making such a scandalous allegation

 

do is a natural result of inquiry into nature of "reality"...that shows that objects lack a self nature and it takes consciousness to give them meaning.

[Apech]

Good post Apech:-) Hmm, why is it when I explain the same thing questions of kitchen experiments come up and when Feynman does it with a diagram he gets kudos:-)

Nah, not important, I didn't do the math/physics work and Feynman sounds like a non-pathalogical human:-)

 

Edit. More typos

 

Maybe he just looks like he knows something about particles and all that stuff:

 

[Marblehead]

Marblehead you only exist because the rocks are watching you . Don't get paranoid now.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Story time. About rocks.

 

Years ago I went up to North Georgia to get some river rocks for my pond area. I was in the water collecting some and a Fish and Wildlife agent came down and asked me what I was doing. (He was hoping to catch someone without a license.) I told him and he said I couldn't do that because it was private property and beside, if everyone came and collected rocks there would be none left.

 

I said nothing but when he left I went to the sheriff's office and told them what had happened and asked if the river was private property and if it was illegal to collect some rocks out of the river. They answered no to both questions.

 

I went back to the river and continued collecting my rocks almost hoping the agent would come back.

[Birch]

My spelling is getting worser and worser!

 

Yep, looks like a decent enough dude. Should i be off hunting online for stories about secret-society membership and decadence?

 

Sort of OT, I was pondering secret-societies the other day and i figured that if i did something really strange, at some point someone would be able to point to my activities as a TTB and suggest conspiracy:-).

 

Right, back to the rocks and consciousness. It ain't for naught they call this "the hard question" :-)

[dwai]

Dwai, I know it's an old question but if consiousness is experiencing unity of consciousness, isn't that problematic? The experience is real, yes, but the conclusion is "after the fact".

Ok take 2

 

Consciousness isnt experiencing it is not experiencing...in other words...when all experiences have been eliminated consciousness is finally nondual...so unity is the inherent nature...(like sunlight...it reflects differentcolors basedon different properties of the objects that it is illimuniating, including the golden color we often relate sunlight to). Consciousness simply is, self aware, beyond time and space. All the infinite things are like bubbles of this that rise up ( due to various conditions) and think that they are separate from that one.

[Marblehead]

... but seriously I want to pursue the question of consciousness/ sentience. If we agree about plants then that's a start. Plants with some kind of sentience. They have no brains or complex nervous systems ... so at least their sentience is not the product of complexity.

 

Yes, I have already agreed that all living things have some form of awareness. This would include plants.

 

I suggested a long time ago that the interactivity of particles was the basis of sentience in 'higher' levels of life. Here is a Feynman diagram of two electrons interacting.

 

The interaction which is shown as a photon exchange is the equivalent of one electron saying to the other ... hey I'm over here ... move over will you. Could this not be the basis for what develops as sentience???

 

I don't know about that but a while back there was a program that talked about the bacteria that live inside all of us and that these bacteria somehow communicate with each other so this would indicate self-awareness.

[Birch]

Ok take 2

 

Consciousness isnt experiencing it is not experiencing...in other words...when all experiences have been eliminated consciousness is finally nondual...so unity is the inherent nature...(like sunlight...it reflects differentcolors basedon different properties of the objects that it is illimuniating, including the golden color we often relate sunlight to). Consciousness simply is, self aware, beyond time and space. All the infinite things are like bubbles of this that rise up ( due to various conditions) and think that they are separate from that one.

Ok then. Thank you!

[Apech]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Story time. About rocks.

 

Years ago I went up to North Georgia to get some river rocks for my pond area. I was in the water collecting some and a Fish and Wildlife agent came down and asked me what I was doing. (He was hoping to catch someone without a license.) I told him and he said I couldn't do that because it was private property and beside, if everyone came and collected rocks there would be none left.

 

I said nothing but when he left I went to the sheriff's office and told them what had happened and asked if the river was private property and if it was illegal to collect some rocks out of the river. They answered no to both questions.

 

I went back to the river and continued collecting my rocks almost hoping the agent would come back.

 

A very interesting admission! Unless you agree those stones were actually self-conscious beings I may have to report you to:

 

The Department of Natural Resources' Environmental Protection Division (EPD)

 

under the statute:

 

"Any activity which may result in soil erosion from water or wind and the movement of sediments into state water or onto lands within the state, including, but not limited to, clearing, dredging, grading, excavating, transporting, and filling of land but not including agricultural practices as described in paragraph (5) of Code Section 12-7-17."

 

River Basin Center - North Georgia

 

 

(PS isn't google great!!!!)

[Birch]

A very interesting admission! Unless you agree those stones were actually self-conscious beings I may have to report you to:

 

The Department of Natural Resources' Environmental Protection Division (EPD)

 

under the statute:

 

"Any activity which may result in soil erosion from water or wind and the movement of sediments into state water or onto lands within the state, including, but not limited to, clearing, dredging, grading, excavating, transporting, and filling of land but not including agricultural practices as described in paragraph (5) of Code Section 12-7-17."

 

River Basin Center - North Georgia

 

 

(PS isn't google great!!!!)

There's a statute for that?

I was going to suggest the stuff growing on the rocks wouldn't be great for the pond.

[Marblehead]

Mh,

 

Are we self-aware in deep sleep? If not, then are we then lacking in consciousness under such circumstances?

 

Fair question. Apech touched on this this morning.

 

To the best of my understanding:

 

Our brains continue to function during deep sleep. We may or may not be conscious of its functions while in deep sleep (dreaming or not dreaming). Our senses, except for our eyes, are sending signals to the brain and it is dealing with the information.

 

So even though we might not be aware of what is going on in our brain I would have to say that consciousness exists even in the unconscious state. This is similar to what I was saying about a person in full coma. In their case there would be no consciousness even though the brain was still performing some functions.