Poll on Moderation Issue

[Apech]

How do you know we're just a vocal minority? I look at the number of votes that are against moving I4L's threads to a different section as possible evidence, we're not such a minority, but rather more like a half and half split. In the end the group with the most influence will win out in the end. This isn't a democracy anyways, it's a private site, so whatever the mods decide will be the end decision. I'm just making a point that I see a real degradation in the quality of discussions since this shift and most of it has to do with the subtle version of censorship that's going on. And again, the bias against other philosophies in the special sections is one of the reasons I don't participate.

 

Aaron

 

I don't accept the 'subtle version of censorship' idea at all and am surprised if anything we have done comes across as that. We moderate almost 100% on spam and conduct (i.e. insults and so on) ... I hold my hands up to moving one thread on race to the Pit ... maybe I was being a bit oversensitive ... but we never delete, edit out or stop ideas. The whole idea of this poll is to find a place where ideas that some object to can be expressed ... not to sweep them under the carpet somehow.

 

All the subs were created in response to requests from members ... it wasn't a top down decision. It was what people said they wanted. In fact the example of the TTC sub made us think it would work.

 

Anyway .. so far ... it looks like General Discussion is ok for most of I4L's stuff (with the exception of PUA) ... with maybe some of the more oblique stuff in Off Topic.

 

Vote now if you want to express your opinion ... I'll probably close this poll tomorrow sometime.

 

Thanks to all for the good discussion by the way ... its interesting to hear what you all are thinking.

 

A.

[Aaron]

I don't accept the 'subtle version of censorship' idea at all and am surprised if anything we have done comes across as that. We moderate almost 100% on spam and conduct (i.e. insults and so on) ... I hold my hands up to moving one thread on race to the Pit ... maybe I was being a bit oversensitive ... but we never delete, edit out or stop ideas. The whole idea of this poll is to find a place where ideas that some object to can be expressed ... not to sweep them under the carpet somehow.

 

All the subs were created in response to requests from members ... it wasn't a top down decision. It was what people said they wanted. In fact the example of the TTC sub made us think it would work.

 

Anyway .. so far ... it looks like General Discussion is ok for most of I4L's stuff (with the exception of PUA) ... with maybe some of the more oblique stuff in Off Topic.

 

Vote now if you want to express your opinion ... I'll probably close this poll tomorrow sometime.

 

Thanks to all for the good discussion by the way ... its interesting to hear what you all are thinking.

 

A.

 

I understand that. I guess my issue is that the General Discussion forum has really turned to crap in the last few months. I like some of the topics in the subforums and wouldn't mind participating, but again, if I can't feel comfortable saying, "well you know the Sufi's have an idea similar to this" without having someone say, "this is Buddhist/Taoist discussion and that has no place here" then I'm not going to participate.

 

The censorship may have been advocated by the people, for the people, but that doesn't mean that it isn't present, even if it was done at the behest of the public. If the mods did it because people wanted it, then we can't really blame you, rather we should take a good look at what we're advocating when we do decide that we want to ostracize certain people from open discussion.

 

Again for anyone who questions my involvement or opinion regarding subforums, I will say again that the Tao Teh Ching subforum was created for a much different reason than what is being advocated in the Chuang Tzu, Taoism Discussion, and Buddhist Discussion sections, which to me amounts to private clubs where the discussion is guided by the chosen to only include what they want to hear. In the Tao Te Ching subforum we allowed translations that had obvious Christian bias, we also allowed people to openly discuss similarities between Taoism and other religions as well, because it was meant to be an academic discussion and most people in the know about Chinese history understand that it's almost impossible to talk about Taoism without talking about the influences of other cultures and religions as well.

 

If anyone still has problems understanding my point then read Farenheit 451 and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

 

Aaron

 

edit- And I also don't want this to be taken out of context. I like you Apech, you're a nice person and you've always been gracious and helpful, so this isn't meant to be a personal attack on your character, because that wouldn't be fair, but rather just the climate I see forming on this forum lately. Same goes for the other mods. Yeah, I've butted heads on some occasions, but I genuinely like each and every one of you. My comments aren't meant to be anti-mod or anti-Taobums, but rather about the general attitude lately.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Twinner

[manitou]

I've stopped posting in the Taoist section and the Taoist Book Study section because my thoughts don't fit tightly enough into the Taoist structure, according to one who has self-appointed himself as the decider of what is of the Tao and what is not.

 

I would say I4L belongs in the General Discussion section, in the room where all paths meet. This too is where I will stay. Those who wish to remain in structure can remain within their structure.

 

Or, we can bounce ideas off each other and evolve upward and upward. When I find a wormhole in common with VJ, for example, not only does it make my heart sing but it affirms one more time that we're all talking about the same thing and perhaps the torch has been passed to us, as more enlightened and evolved ones , to find the commonality between all these paths. To me, this differentiation is a step backward, and I hope to help turn the General Discussion forum into a free-thinking arena where we can look for the commonalities between our thought-bubbles, as opposed to our differences delineated into comfy little grooves.

 

The choice is Ours, as always.

 

As an afterthought - I don't think the decision should have been made by polling the general membership. I think there are relatively few posters compared to the general viewership. Yes, it is 'convenient' for someone who's curious about a particular path, be it Taoist, Buddhist, or Yogi - that's an organizational matter. Yes, now we have a better 'organized' website.

 

But I don't think the 'posters' on this forum (had they only been asked) would have answered the same way. Convenience wouldn't have been the issue (as it appears to me that the general populace voted for). I think we've evolved our own dynamics over the years with each other, and Dammit, I Miss CowTao! And Veejay! And SethAnanda. And so many others. But being a spiritual mongrel and knowing next to nothing about these specific pathways, I am merely self-realized with a shamanic twist, who happens to love the TTC so much that I've probably read it 100 times.

 

I don't feel that I fit within the lines on any of these categories, so I'll just be hanging out with Immortal in General Discussion, whom I get a kick out of anyways.

Edited November 12, 2011 by manitou

[Apech]

,,,,

 

edit- And I also don't want this to be taken out of context. I like you Apech, you're a nice person and you've always been gracious and helpful, so this isn't meant to be a personal attack on your character, because that wouldn't be fair, but rather just the climate I see forming on this forum lately. Same goes for the other mods. Yeah, I've butted heads on some occasions, but I genuinely like each and every one of you. My comments aren't meant to be anti-mod or anti-Taobums, but rather about the general attitude lately.

 

Don't worry I'm not offended ... I like you too. I am bit surprised by all this because I thought things were going swimmingly in the subs.

 

I would say .... vote with your feet (metaphorically) and use the General Discussion to start the debate you want to have.

 

I think the subs were meant to be a quiet reading room away from the hub-bub. Some people were finding that they might ask a genuine question about Taoism say, only to be told that they should not be asking that question but another one about a different system or the person's own view of reality or whatever ...

 

@manitou ... I hear you. TTBs does not have an official view of what is orthodox ... not even about Taoism. Its not here to express an individual's views - and I wonder if this is something that is happening unconsciously rather than meant to be excluding people. Like you I study different systems and generally make my own way based on what I have realized (believe it or not lol). I think the structure of TTBs is there to be used creatively ... so I hope the general dis. will return to its previous liveliness (but no aggressive stuff I hope).

[C T]

Why is this even an issue?

 

The banner "General Discussion" should point to the obvious.

 

The way i relate to the forum is the same attitude i would have when, on the odd occasion, someone passes me a free newspaper - if i choose to read it, then i would pick and choose the interesting and relevant bits, and disregard the rest. Woe be unto me if i have to make known to the editor each time i come across some disdainful article or report, and demand corrective measures be taken.

 

Criticisms and judgements of the actions of others are fairly easy to pass - what i find challenging is correcting my own faults and my unwillingness to be more adaptive, accepting, and perhaps failure to have a bigger heart with which my chances of transcending mediocrity are improved upon, and in the process hopefully learn to cultivate an open, more yielding nature. Isn't this one of the authentic hallmarks of every true spiritual endeavor? I would certainly hope so.

 

 

 

Manitou ~ i miss VJ too. Hope all is well with him. Wish he would pop in now and again just to say 'Yo' and let us know he is ok. Thank you for bringing up some really worthy points in the above post. Sending lots of warm blessings your way..

 

Great weekend, y'all.

[Encephalon]

What agenda? You just keep begging the question.

 

You want me to state my "agenda".

 

I am interested in all aspects of, and all issues relating to spirituality, religion, life after death, meta-physics, martial arts, human origins, science, life, nature, cosmology, astrology, consciousness, mental potential, higher planes of existence, biology, archaeology, and anthropology.

 

 

That's not entirely true. You are interested in all of the aspects of these various subjects except those that require any intellectual rigor. You came in here with a shotgun and blasted the place with some of the shoddiest pseudo-science of the last hundred years.

 

 

Many of the greatest thinkers in history, who turned things upside and shattered status quos, were not those who clung to their social programming or their "education". Many of the biggest thinkers were from outside the orthodox academic instititions of their day.

 

You wore out that rationalization many moons ago. Those maverick thinkers who made a difference were creative people who wielded expertise and broke free of the conceptual straightjackets of their respective fields. They did not skip the hard work, whether in academia or through their own private studies as autodidacts. You, on the other hand, possess no scientific experience of any kind, but instead of getting yer butt to the local junior college and taking your mental life seriously, you've chosen instead to skip the process entirely while waging a jihad outside outside the classroom, throwing rocks through the windows. Oddly enough, you seem perfectly capable of formal study, but we all take the academic plunge when we're good and ready. I was 36.

 

 

I have explained many times in the past why it is so that if materialism or atheism were correct, meaning, sychronicity, and life after death could not exist.

 

And therein lies your "agenda;" you cannot imagine a mature spiritual life not grounded in a theistic view of the world. Humanistic spirituality seems to have become an intensely irritating notion for you. Cosmology without God is life without meaning, so much that you've turned this forum into a battlefield to wage your arguments. I understand where you're coming from, and even empathize with you, inasmuch as I once held it myself, but like millions of happy humanists (of all stripes, even Taoist) who've come before me, I've discovered that a creative and meaningful life in the midst of mystery, not a conjured divinity, is not only possible but necessary. Ultimately, it's just a function of our spiritual imagination and our curiosity that determines how much we personalize God or Tao, but some semblance of contentment in the midst of ambiguity is a nice reward. The point of all this, I guess, is that you can't win souls with badgering. You do so by setting an example that others would follow themselves.

[Protector]

urghhh I want this reply to be in I Ching thread and this one, feeling lazy so let's just go with this.

 

Everything has patterns, not having a pattern is also a pattern

If you understand one pattern like the 5 elements, you can apply it to other things. Where you notice something becoming a Wood element, for example, and how it reacts to other elements to create, destroy, affect other elements.

Learning something very big and detailed like I Ching can be very hard because you try to memorize it and understand with your mind. It becomes so much more easy when you can relate parts and pieces of it to normal for you everyday things. When you partially understand a situation, you can fill out the missing parts with what you understand from somewhere else.

Now back to this topic, like I even went off topic in first place

You can think threads about Atlantis and aliens are unrelated and are crazy but if you apply this understanding and fill up the holes, things become clear and... very much awesome. The End

[Aaron]

Why is this even an issue?

 

The banner "General Discussion" should point to the obvious.

 

The way i relate to the forum is the same attitude i would have when, on the odd occasion, someone passes me a free newspaper - if i choose to read it, then i would pick and choose the interesting and relevant bits, and disregard the rest. Woe be unto me if i have to make known to the editor each time i come across some disdainful article or report, and demand corrective measures be taken.

 

Criticisms and judgements of the actions of others are fairly easy to pass - what i find challenging is correcting my own faults and my unwillingness to be more adaptive, accepting, and perhaps failure to have a bigger heart with which my chances of transcending mediocrity are improved upon, and in the process hopefully learn to cultivate an open, more yielding nature. Isn't this one of the authentic hallmarks of every true spiritual endeavor? I would certainly hope so.

 

 

 

Hello CT,

 

I think the issue is that there is no issue. I don't think that if one sees something wrong and addresses it that it means they are not facing their own faults or not transcending mediocrity, but rather that they are addressing something they believe is wrong. Perhaps the mere fact they see it is wrong is indicative of their ability to recognize their own faults? If having a bigger heart means they must look the other way while others mistreat people, then maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

 

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a Buddhist subforum or Taoist subforum, just that general discussion has gone to *&%# and the subforums seem to be run by Buddhist and Taoist fundamentalists who don't want to hear anything but what they consider to be "truth". I'm not interested in "truth" or being told what truths I can talk about and can't. I think there are elements in the Taoist subforum that are much more bigoted about this than the Buddhist, but I have seen it occur in both.

 

Now to get back on track, I understand your point, but I disagree with it, and that is why I made an issue of it, not that I lack compassion, but rather because I think to a degree what's happening is more harmful to the community than beneficial, it's sort of like saying, "well those people don't get along with these people, so lets bus them off to their own schools, so everyone can get along. If they come to this school, then they're going to have to behave and act the way we tell them to or they're not welcome." It's segregation, plain and simple.

 

If you can see how it's not similar, then that's fine, but in the end that's what I feel is happening.

 

Aaron

 

 

edit- Note, I've beaten this horse long enough. Time to let it be. I hope that people can make a concerted effort to be more open to other's interpretation of specific ideas and beliefs in the subforums, but I can't change them, they have to change themselves, so continuing this debate is pointless.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Twinner

[Encephalon]

Why is this even an issue?

 

The banner "General Discussion" should point to the obvious.

 

The way i relate to the forum is the same attitude i would have when, on the odd occasion, someone passes me a free newspaper - if i choose to read it, then i would pick and choose the interesting and relevant bits, and disregard the rest. Woe be unto me if i have to make known to the editor each time i come across some disdainful article or report, and demand corrective measures be taken.

 

Criticisms and judgements of the actions of others are fairly easy to pass - what i find challenging is correcting my own faults and my unwillingness to be more adaptive, accepting, and perhaps failure to have a bigger heart with which my chances of transcending mediocrity are improved upon, and in the process hopefully learn to cultivate an open, more yielding nature. Isn't this one of the authentic hallmarks of every true spiritual endeavor? I would certainly hope so.

 

 

Thanks for reminding me just how treacherous the road to enlightenment is! I know I've been accused of being a louse who is too quick to pass judgment on others over their posted content, and I'm sure some of it is well-deserved, but the problem I have is not with people who lack access to information, or education, or experience. I hope I have never ridiculed a person for simply not having access to a piece of information. I see no problem with exploring the limits of our imagination. What I find problematic are the ideological zealots who aggressively proselytize points that are not only beyond their own understanding or realm of expertise but beyond everyone's understanding. It is this lack of intellectual humility - asserting as fact that the earth really is full of catacombs through which alien spacecraft fly unfettered - that diminishes everyone's ideas, because it just dissolves any criteria by which we can have sensible discussion.

 

I had my own metaphysical notions throughout for the first 36 years of my life before I finally got off my ass and went to college. But I never argued them as facts by which others were obliged to gauge the validity of their own experience. I've been always the skeptic, even with my own mental constructions.

[deci belle]

I'd asked about immortal's threads when they were first moved cuz they weren't necessarily articles being written in this instance. Apech commented that it was due to the extensive use of additional links supporting the common subject matter that warrants inclusion of immortal's coverage of the ancient/new age subjects in the articles section. I immediately responded that the moderators' rational was ok with me.

 

Because of the stylized subject matter, it's not necessarily conducive to discussion anyway, so until there are too many other bums with similarly formatted material loading up what is almost a private forum for my ramblings, I feel that immortal's threads are appropriate in the articles section, if that's what people want.

 

Along with what I'm wont to write, I occasionally edit and compile my comments from posts in the other sections and create new threads in the articles section in order to "save" them for others' convenience in the articles section. Maybe immortal should use the articles section of the forum to store the links with the stipulation that the content of his threads in the discussion section develop a real organization and evidence of a personal exploration?

 

I can and do appreciate the issue of "integrity" and authentic investment being brought to bear in presenting views on this site. And I can't imagine consideration of certain subjects without recognizing the requirements of extensive depth and breadth being exercised by those who attempt to present them.

 

If immortal is the only one doing this kind of thing, it has to go somewhere~ and the articles section is kinda the kook's corner anyway! It's kinda lonely out here in the articles section though… just wind, sand and stars❤

 

As the links are kinda like a reference section, there is a research criteria being met. Maybe mr immortal will even be able to find some tasty Terrence McKenna recordings buried deep in the web to add to his latest thread!! heehee!!❤

 

(ed note: add "tasty" in last line.)

Edited November 12, 2011 by deci belle

[C T]

Twinner/Encephalon,

 

Gents.. comments appreciated, and no disrespect intended. The point i was trying to make was more a reminder to myself and not a criticism of either of you esteemed individuals ~ my humble apologies if it was seen as being unsavorily misdirected.

 

In my limited understanding, one of the primary obstacles towards the cultivation of spirit is a hardened mental space where there is no room to allow for the peculiarities and quirkinesses of other 'passengers' in this big ark we call humanity.

 

I know the hypocrisy attached to the above statement as i have, on a number of occasions, ranted like a lunatic at past comments which i thought were stupid and ignorant, but lately, i have come to realize that its not others who are stupid and ignorant, its the way i relate to externalities that needed mindful reformation.

 

The benefits of learning to become less reactionary is immense.

 

Again and again, i find that i need to be reminded that the strongest heart is the one that is most willing to be vulnerable. The emphasis here is on understanding the essence of what it means to be utterly complete in one's willingness to yield ~ all this, without having to constantly put oneself in the line of fire just to prove one is above and beyond mediocrity. Evidentially...

 

Even the sturdiest trees, with their deep, deep roots, are not immune to the poundings of gales. Not surprisingly, its the lowly grass that seem best to withstand the ever-changing nature of the elements. Yet, its growth is not solely restricted to places where only strong winds blow.

 

Warm blessings to all.

[Encephalon]

Twinner/Encephalon,

 

Gents.. comments appreciated, and no disrespect intended. The point i was trying to make was more a reminder to myself and not a criticism of either of you esteemed individuals ~ my humble apologies if it was seen as being unsavorily misdirected.

 

In my limited understanding, one of the primary obstacles towards the cultivation of spirit is a hardened mental space where there is no room to allow for the peculiarities and quirkinesses of other 'passengers' in this big ark we call humanity.

 

I know the hypocrisy attached to the above statement as i have, on a number of occasions, ranted like a lunatic at past comments which i thought were stupid and ignorant, but lately, i have come to realize that its not others who are stupid and ignorant, its the way i relate to externalities that needed mindful reformation.

 

The benefits of learning to become less reactionary is immense.

 

Again and again, i find that i need to be reminded that the strongest heart is the one that is most willing to be vulnerable. The emphasis here is on understanding the essence of what it means to be utterly complete in one's willingness to yield ~ all this, without having to constantly put oneself in the line of fire just to prove one is above and beyond mediocrity. Evidentially...

 

Even the sturdiest trees, with their deep, deep roots, are not immune to the poundings of gales. Not surprisingly, its the lowly grass that seem best to withstand the ever-changing nature of the elements. Yet, its growth is not solely restricted to places where only strong winds blow.

 

Warm blessings to all.

 

Beautifully wrought. Again, you remind me of just how much work I have left to do on my own petty self. I hope I didn't create another layer of confusion with my last post; it was not intended as a jab against you, nor was it in response to any perceived criticism of me. My main point was to point out that zealotry of the consistent and premeditated stripe may require a sturdier response than simply yielding, less Buddhism, more Taoism. I can feel the tenderness that animates I4L's crusade to inoculate the universe against the alleged wretched meaninglessness of humanism, but his practice and delivery is not in accord with honest and productive communication, which is what I hope we are all here for, ostensibly. I can appreciate the commitment of young Mormon missionaries out on the trail, but I don't want them banging on my door day after day.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Encephalon

[doc benway]

I don't think the structure and format of the site matter one iota.

Anyone who is genuine in their intent to join with others online to grow spiritually, can find a place and quality people here.

If any one of us thinks the quality of contributions has deteriorated it is because we have failed to make a better contribution personally.

Post what you want, where you want, with respect and civility.

If someone thinks your opinion is not orthodox enough for a sub-forum that's their cross to bear, not yours.

Pointing the finger at others or the forum itself is a cop out.

Lamenting about folks who've left for whatever reason is a waste of time.

Be the change you want here or look elsewhere.

It's a natural cycle.

Peace.

[Aaron]

I don't think the structure and format of the site matter one iota.

Anyone who is genuine in their intent to join with others online to grow spiritually, can find a place and quality people here.

If any one of us thinks the quality of contributions has deteriorated it is because we have failed to make a better contribution personally.

Post what you want, where you want, with respect and civility.

If someone thinks your opinion is not orthodox enough for a sub-forum that's their cross to bear, not yours.

Pointing the finger at others or the forum itself is a cop out.

Lamenting about folks who've left for whatever reason is a waste of time.

Be the change you want here or look elsewhere.

It's a natural cycle.

Peace.

 

 

 

Steve,

 

No one person can be responsible for the contributions within a site, rather it is the communities responsibility. I think what we need to do in regards to the subforums is create a subforum FAQ for each section. You could write one and submit it so others have a chance to review it and talk about sections they might agree with or disagree, then once everyone has had a chance to share what they think, you make a decision based on the common desires of the majority, while remembering to protect the minority as well. Simple as that... or maybe not.

 

Anyways, that's my suggestion. A FAQ.

 

 

Aaron

[doc benway]

 

Anyways, that's my suggestion. A FAQ.

 

 

Aaron

We have a FAQ here.

I personally don't see a need for a separate FAQ for each sub-forum but if you or others want to work on that, I'll support it.

Not my bag, baby...

 

 

[konchog uma]

why doesn't I4L just start a personal practice subforum and post his pickup artist stuff there?

 

or any of this wingnut stuff (eg: atlanteans under shasta) for that matter?

 

the molemen made me say wingnut

[Birch]

Are you saying golden third-eye meditations are not wingnut?

[konchog uma]

Are you saying golden third-eye meditations are not wingnut?

 

hahaha wingnut is as wingnut does

 

i missed the golden third eye thread tho so i can't really offer an opinion

[strawdog65]

Not sure why this is even an issue,

but here is my own .02 cents worth.

 

I find I4L's post to be always interesting.

Yes there are links to other things, but many

of us are guilty of that.

 

General discussion seems to be the most obvious area

to post differing ideas of things we may not have contact

with if these ideas were subjugated to a more specific area.

 

I like to be surprised by some of the things he has posted,

and many times he is posting things i myself already have an

interest in. The fringe element of many of the things he posts

are very influential in how we view our own beliefs(I believe).

 

If the off topic area was moved from the bottom of the page,

up into a more prominent position where it could be seen and more

members could then participate, then that would be a great change

as well. The current location of "off topic" is really in the

boonies, and I don't think many members think of going there.

 

IL4.... I appreciate many of the things you post.

I am not a believer in any of the intelligent design stuff,

but I do really appreciate the fringe element you bring forth.

Please don't take any of this personally, follow the truth

as you find it and the way it speaks to you.

 

There is a myriad of ways to enlightenment....and yours is your very own,

never let anyone sway you from making those discoveries.

[Apech]

Hi folks,

 

I'm going to lock this thread now because it was just for the poll really. The result shows that the majority of voters are happy with I4L posting in General Discussion (with the option of Off Topic for PUA (if you really must)). Obviously normal mod rules apply but apart from that ... the few who object to his posts well I guess ignore is the best option. I4L please don't flood the board though ...

 

On the issue of subs and the stifling of debate ... I think now we have the subs we will have to learn to use them well. They seem to serve a purpose for some people and some topics ... but its an open forum and its not about the views of individuals dominating its about open, frank, respectful, humorous, sometimes tangential discussion. If you don't like subs then use the general ... its up to you ... make this place what you want it to be.

 

PS. If you want to continue this debate please start another thread - I'm just closing this cos of the poll.