Chuang Tzu Chapter 4, Section B

[Marblehead]

Section B

 

Yan Hui said, 'I can go no farther; I venture to ask the method from you.' Zhongni replied, 'It is fasting, (as) I will tell you. (But) when you have the method, will you find it easy to practise it? He who thinks it easy will be disapproved of by the bright Heaven.' Hui said, 'My family is poor. For months together we have no spirituous drink, nor do we taste the proscribed food or any strong-smelling vegetables;-- can this be regarded as fasting?' The reply was, 'It is the fasting appropriate to sacrificing, but it is not the fasting of the mind.' 'I venture to ask what that fasting of the mind is,' said Hui, and Zhongni answered, 'Maintain a perfect unity in every movement of your will, You will not wait for the hearing of your ears about it, but for the hearing of your mind. You will not wait even for the hearing of your mind, but for the hearing of the spirit. Let the hearing (of the ears) rest with the ears. Let the mind rest in the verification (of the rightness of what is in the will). But the spirit is free from all pre-occupation and so waits for (the appearance of) things. Where the (proper) course is, there is freedom from all pre-occupation; such freedom is the fasting of the mind.' Hui said, 'Before it was possible for me to employ (this method), there I was, the Hui that I am; now, that I can employ it, the Hui that I was has passed away. Can I be said to have obtained this freedom from pre-occupation?' The Master replied, 'Entirely. I tell you that you can enter and be at ease in the enclosure (where he is), and not come into collision with the reputation (which belongs to him). If he listen to your counsels, let him hear your notes; if he will not listen, be silent. Open no (other) door; employ no other medicine; dwell with him (as with a friend) in the same apartment, and as if you had no other option, and you will not be far from success in your object. Not to move a step is easy; to walk without treading on the ground is difficult. In acting after the manner of men, it is easy to fall into hypocrisy; in acting after the manner of Heaven, it is difficult to play the hypocrite. I have heard of flying with wings; I have not heard of flying without them. I have heard of the knowledge of the wise; I have not heard of the knowledge of the unwise. Look at that aperture (left in the wall); the empty apartment is filled with light through it. Felicitous influences rest (in the mind thus emblemed), as in their proper resting place. Even when they do not so rest, we have what is called (the body) seated and (the mind) galloping abroad. The information that comes through the ears and eyes is comprehended internally, and the knowledge of the mind becomes something external: (when this is the case), the spiritual intelligences will come, and take up their dwelling with us, and how much more will other men do so! All things thus undergo a transforming influence. This was the hinge on which Yu and Shun moved; it was this which Fu-xi and Ji-qu practised all their lives: how much more should other men follow the same rule!'

[Marblehead]

Okay. This is actually a part of Section A but I believe what is presented deserves a section of its own.

 

This is the first mention of the concepts of meditation and wu wei.

[deci belle]

[Marblehead]

 

Even so, it seems the broader context even touches on aspects of the propagation of wisdom as well.❤

 

True that he did not speak directly to wisdom here but I think most would agree that in order to attain and maintain wu wei one must possess some level of wisdom. I think the same could be said concerning meditation.

 

"Marblehead, I kinda pulled it in a notch to regard reality in terms of the appearance instead of the arising of phenomena (things). Ultimately, and hopefully, the real picked out in the evolution of a formal meditation is eventually discovered in the course of one's involvement in ordinary affairs."

 

Hehehe. You sure do mess with my mind with your wordage sometimes. I had to read that sucker three times!!!

 

But yes, I would agree that the primary intention for meditating is to clear one's mind so that they can interact with their environment in a better way.

[konchog uma]

Yeah, Mair puts that all in one chapter, which is in the 4,A thread.

[nestentrie]

I may have some thoughts on this chapter soon. In the meantime, nice post deci belle.

[Stosh]

regard reality in terms of the appearance instead of the arising of phenomena (things). Ultimately, and hopefully, the real picked out in the evolution of a formal meditation is eventually discovered in the course of one's involvement in ordinary affairs."

 

Sounds like impermanence. Oh NOooooooooo!

Edited December 4, 2013 by Stosh

[Rara]

Zhongni = Confucious, yes? I'm interested in how the characters are used here. It appears that Confucious is the "go to man" here.

 

Can it be argued that Zhuangzi is using Confucious as a voice to make the statement that perhaps Confucious became a disciple of Zhuangzi?

 

As Confucianism sort of opposes Taoism, I'm toying with a theory that Confucious found the Way later in life...

[Marblehead]

The age difference between Lao Tzu, Confucius, and Chuang Tzu would indicate that they never met.

 

It is suggested that Confucius read everything he could get his hands on.  The TTC, in some form, existed during his lifetime.

 

And as with Lao Tzu, Confucius wrote and spoke of controlling the people.

 

I think that within the Chuang Tzu we can find many places where Confucius was used as a bad example but just as many places where he is used as a good example.

 

You may be on a good idea with Confucius finding the Way later in life.  Could be an interesting investigation.

[Stosh]

May I suggest that Taoism isnt actually 'opposed to Confucianism' ?  Or should I say , mentally categorizing the various factions as opposing , leads to discrepancies.

 

The philosophies differ at a basic level, the goodness of men and society' but its not like they were, or are opposite. You and I may agree or disagree on various things , but that doesn't make us opposed overall. Even the Legalists who where very opposite on the matter of mans goodness, to Laoists, still sharedelements in common with them. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

May I suggest ...

I think you just did.  Hehehe.

 

And I won't disagree with you.  But I will suggest that Confucianism is much closer to Laoism than it is to Chuangism.

[Stosh]

I think you just did.  Hehehe.

 

And I won't disagree with you.  But I will suggest that Confucianism is much closer to Laoism than it is to Chuangism.

Yeah!, I just came across that Idea, was Chuang perhaps just a regular guy as opposed to the rest being political hacks? What, doth you think?

[Marblehead]

Yeah!, I just came across that Idea, was Chuang perhaps just a regular guy as opposed to the rest being political hacks? What, doth you think?

I totally doubt we could call him political in any sense of the word.  Regular guy?  No, I think he was more than that.  You and I are regular guys.  Compared to us Chuang Tzu was a Mother Teresa.  Even more than that, I think.  I know of no one I can honestly compare him to.  A one of a kind?

[Rara]

The age difference between Lao Tzu, Confucius, and Chuang Tzu would indicate that they never met.

 

It is suggested that Confucius read everything he could get his hands on. The TTC, in some form, existed during his lifetime.

 

And as with Lao Tzu, Confucius wrote and spoke of controlling the people.

 

I think that within the Chuang Tzu we can find many places where Confucius was used as a bad example but just as many places where he is used as a good example.

 

You may be on a good idea with Confucius finding the Way later in life. Could be an interesting investigation.

Well, provided that Lao Tzu was a person...

 

So Confucious existed later, then Chuang Tzu? Can you point me in the direction of some reference points for their eras? (If they are not wikipedia, that is)

 

But yes, I am curious to know how much Confucianism works with Taoism.

 

Also, do you believe Lao Tzu to be more of a conservative kinda guy?

[Rara]

May I suggest that Taoism isnt actually 'opposed to Confucianism' ? Or should I say , mentally categorizing the various factions as opposing , leads to discrepancies.

 

The philosophies differ at a basic level, the goodness of men and society' but its not like they were, or are opposite. You and I may agree or disagree on various things , but that doesn't make us opposed overall. Even the Legalists who where very opposite on the matter of mans goodness, to Laoists, still sharedelements in common with them.

True, I've been thinking in black and white for too long. This study is helping me break the cycle.

[Marblehead]

Well, provided that Lao Tzu was a person...

 

So Confucious existed later, then Chuang Tzu? Can you point me in the direction of some reference points for their eras? (If they are not wikipedia, that is)

 

But yes, I am curious to know how much Confucianism works with Taoism.

I don't have the links handy but to my recall, Lao Tzu would have been in his 60s, maybe late 50s, when Confucius was born.  This is why I doubt the two ever met.

 

Chuang Tzu was born about one hundred years after Confucius died.  The two could not have met.

 

So we have first, Lao Tzu, then Confucius, and then Chuang Tzu.

 

Remember too that much of what is in the TTC already existed before the TTC was actually first recorded.

 

Confucius read these things and was surely influenced by the concepts.

 

 

Also, do you believe Lao Tzu to be more of a conservative kinda guy?

I see Lao Tzu as even more of a conservative than I am.  Lao Tzu and Confucius conservatives; Chuang Tzu a liberal.

[Rara]

Yeah!, I just came across that Idea, was Chuang perhaps just a regular guy as opposed to the rest being political hacks? What, doth you think?

I think he was a dude that wore no shoes, danced in the street and swore at cops.

[Marblehead]

... and swore at cops.

I wonder if they called them pigs back then.

[Taoist Texts]

 

So Confucious existed later, then Chuang Tzu? Can you point me in the direction of some reference points for their eras? (If they are not wikipedia, that is)

 

But yes, I am curious to know how much Confucianism works with Taoism.

Classical Daoism, Philosophical Daoism, Early Daoism: these terms are increasingly being seen as obsolescent by scholars in the last couple of decades. The general public – those who have heard of Daoism or have read a little bit of it – are largely unaware, despite the fact that for quite awhile writers have admitted that there were no “Daoists” in pre-Han China and that the two most famous “Daoists,” Laozi and Zhuangzi, surely never thought of themselves as Daoists. 

https://baopu81.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/classical-daoism-is-there-really-such-a-thing-part-1/

 

 

Required reading. Highly recommended.

[Geof Nanto]

Classical Daoism, Philosophical Daoism, Early Daoism: these terms are increasingly being seen as obsolescent by scholars in the last couple of decades. The general public – those who have heard of Daoism or have read a little bit of it – are largely unaware, despite the fact that for quite awhile writers have admitted that there were no “Daoists” in pre-Han China and that the two most famous “Daoists,” Laozi and Zhuangzi, surely never thought of themselves as Daoists. 

https://baopu81.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/classical-daoism-is-there-really-such-a-thing-part-1/

 

 

Required reading. Highly recommended.

 

Yes, the field of Daoist studies is becoming increasingly sophisticated as more and more research is published and scholars are able to build on each other's efforts through both agreement and opposition. I can only applaud these efforts. For instance, Louis Komjathy draws on a vast body of work from prior scholarship for his compilation of The Daoist Tradition. Such a comprehensive overview could not have been written decades ago.  I especially like his focus on Daoism in its totality as a native Chinese religion. He uses the term Classical Daoism and acknowledges that it was named as such retrospectively, as is commonly recognised.  Other than his ‘jihad’ against what he calls New Age Taoists, he is objective in his overview of Daoism as an ancient and still living tradition; he doesn’t shy away from the spiritual and mystical, and he avoids philosophical analysis of Daoist ideas.

 

I also like insightful analysis of Daoist philosophy and Daoist related topics, of which there is plenty available. I particularly like Hans-Georg Moeller’s work, and Scott Barnwell publishes the excellent blog that you link to above – to name but two of many excellent researchers. However I suspect Zhuang Zhou would smile with amusement on this Western focus of ours on conceptual 'truth'.  Aren't we thereby trapped in following the Platonic tradition of trying to distinguish what is illusion and what is reality?  Such an attitude is typical of our whole contemporary, scientific-minded society. For instance, while reading the allegories of the Zhuangzi, there is the temptation to find oneself ‘understanding everything correctly.’ Our temptation is to evaluate, define and explain the thoughts of this ancient Chinese sage and to place them within one or another group of philosophical ideas. But doesn't such way of thinking confine us in the same realm of illusion / reality opposition that Zhuangzi is trying to transcend?

 

It is informative to realise that Chinese Daoists did not concern themselves with such analysis to any significant degree.  

Edited May 14, 2015 by Darkstar

[Taoist Texts]

. But doesn't such way of thinking confine us in the same realm of illusion / reality opposition that Zhuangzi is trying to transcend?

 

Transcending means going somewhere. Where to was ZZ going?

[Geof Nanto]

Transcending means going somewhere. Where to was ZZ going?

 

Transcend (Definition from OED)

 

1.   Be or go beyond the range or limits of (a field of activity or conceptual sphere).

 

1.1 Surpass (a person or achievement).

 

I know you relish an argument and consequently always hone in on what you perceive as weak points in a comment, but I don't particularly like to engage in such oppositional debates. 

 

From Arthur Waley's Three Ways of Thought in Ancient China: 'Do not seek precision,' says Chuang Tzu, speaking of the realm of Tao. .. . `I myself have traversed it this way and that; yet still know only where it begins. I have roamed at will through its stupendous spaces. I know how to get to them, but I do not know where they end.’ 

 

 

PS. I've edited my previous post since your reply.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Darkstar

[Rara]

Yes, the field of Daoist studies is becoming increasingly sophisticated as more and more research is published and scholars are able to build on each other's efforts through both agreement and opposition. I can only applaud these efforts. For instance, Louis Komjathy draws on a vast body of work from prior scholarship for his compilation of The Daoist Tradition. Such a comprehensive overview could not have been written decades ago. I especially like his focus on Daoism in its totality as a native Chinese religion. And I also like insightful analysis on Daoist topics such Scott Barnwell publishes on the blog that you link to above.

 

However I suspect Zhuang Zhou would smile with amusement on this Western focus of ours on conceptual 'truth'. Aren't we thereby trapped in following the Platonic tradition of trying to distinguish what is illusion and what is reality? Such an attitude is typical of our whole contemporary, scientific-minded society. For instance, while reading the allegories of the Zhuangzi, there is the temptation to find oneself ‘understanding everything correctly.’ Our temptation is to evaluate, define and explain the thoughts of this ancient Chinese sage and to place them within one or another group of philosophical ideas. But doesn't such way of thinking confine us in the same realm of illusion / reality opposition that Zhuangzi is trying to transcend?

 

It is informative to realise that Chinese Daoists did not concern themselves with such analysis.

I agree that having distinction within Taoism is somewhat barking up the wrong tree. I have often said that I feel that Zhuangzi is shaking his head at religious Taoism.

 

But your second point, I'm not sure. If I am to learn, or "undo" a lot of learning so to speak, I see the value in at least understanding Zhuangzi's message as correctly as possible.

 

Otherwise it is just my already conditioned mind making its own interpretation.

[Rara]

From Arthur Waley's Three Ways of Thought in Ancient China: 'Do not seek precision,'

I'm not entirely sure if this is totally relevant what I am about to say because I haven't read what you are referring to. But going by the title, surely precision is key to mastery? How can we not seek precision?

 

Understanding a teaching correctly...for example, in martial arts, cannot be succesful without precision of a strike or form. And the butcher and the Oxen in the Zhuangzi... precision was key. The method, was about feeling and meditation I'm sure, but we have to learn somehow. In the west, grasping the concept in books is a big part of how we process this!

 

I am curious to know what you think to this

Edited May 14, 2015 by Rara

[Geof Nanto]

Rara, it seems I edited my original comment whilst you were writing your post, but I haven't changed anything of what you're asking about. Your questions require some detail to answer and I haven't time immediately, but I will reply later.