Do You Consult The Yi Jing (i Ching)?

[thaddeus]

If you don't get it or like it or think it's crap no matter... But if you do not understand it and yet have time to belittle its importance on a site which was created to discuss its impact these three mellenia later; that strikes me as amazing hubris.

 

My amazing hubris is in creating art based on what I have gleaned from it.

c'mon are you serious? i understand you have alot invested in it, but you're being way too sensitive. i think i asked some damn good questions if I may say so... anyway, i think we need to get past thinking we are belittling something by asking questions and calling things out there. Otherwise we're just paying alot of lipservice and amen-ing each other.

T

[Wayfarer64]

Hi Thaddeus,

I realized soon after writing my last entry that I had over-stated my objections to your take on the process. I was being overly sensitive, feeling that you were working from misconceptions that I've been dealing with -for decades and I did not expect to run into here. Still- from an old street-fighter it was actually tamed down some. ( There seems to be a boat-load of tension on many of these threads today and I'm far from immune when it come to succoming to the lure of a good arguement)... Even as I tried to cool one on another thread-go figure I must be out of balance today.

 

So I am truly sorry for the flare up. I just ask that you study the structure of 4 trigrams to each hexagram and imagine the forces at work within these complex structures.

Or better yet-

 

Please just choose one hexagram at random and then imagine the interplay between the family members represented by the various lines. Then the interplay between the forces represented by the 4 trigrams within the hexagram. The best book to use for this is the Wilhelm/Baynes addition- Book three the commentaries. If ya want to think of a question first, it could be a way to keep the elements in a perspective created by the question, but that isn't what matters in the long run...

 

It is getting the interplay between the internal parts of the structure that helps one to create a fuller picture of the conditions of the moment- as interpreted by the chances involved in either the sticks or the coins being used...a connection to what I call the timeless moment when you really feel like you are one with the universe, on friendly terms with the good humor of your cercumstances even when the joke is on you. Trust, not faith.

 

If we wish to be part of the larger universe and use the emmense powers available to us, if and when we master the moment- we may need to understand what these forces intail and how they inter-act. But first we may need to learn how to be human beings in the moment with no bells , whistles or extaordinary powers.

 

I don't think there is a way around the Yi Jing that can offer as much as the way within the Yi Jing...But that is- I grant you- only my perception of the process.

 

It obviously resonates strongly for me, I get it and am over-anxious to share the profound joy it gives to me...

 

So I beat people over the head with it-...cause at heart I'm just a lone gander (or bull-goose loony) looking for the flock, honking and ha-wonking with good news- I found the field where we all can be fed...

Remember? It's the original field...where we learned to eat the good stuff to get strong & healthy...Where we learned what it means to be a part of this world. Where we got some clues on how to be the best we can be...

[cloud recluse]

Thad:

 

there seems to me to be 2 seperate,but not mutually exclusive ,approaches to the Yi Jing to be considered.Neither of them would constitute any sort of 'compulsory' Daoist practice,but if one were so inclined,they could be quite productive.

 

The one Im really interested in at the moment is using the multi-faceted cosmology of the Changes to sensitize & open the consciuos mind to the flow of the Dao.This is NOT oracular consultation,but a practical application of daoist cosmology.Ive allready run into one group of Daoist practitioners doing just that.So,its the cosmology as a teaching tool ,an expander of your conscious frames of reference.

 

The idea here is that your conscious frames of reference limit the degrees of insight your ego will allow.

Identifying where you are 'fixated' in the cycle of changes can then lead to both intellectual & meditative engagement of contrasting Hexagrams to expand your perspective in a systematic & balanced way.A perusal of the Yi at a level a bit deeper than 'fortune telling' will show this to those who are interested.

 

The other theme is,of course,fortune telling.Which I suppose was really the whole point of this thread in the first place.And this is the one Im not really up to going into right now Except to say that I am mindful of your objections here.But even this 'lesser' function of the Yi may not necessarily be the big copout that you are objecting to.But thats another matter alltogether.

 

Its the first function,the Yi as a kind of yoga that interestes me,& that Im trying to articulate here.But Im pretty much "making it up as I go along",Im still not 100% on what Im trying to express.So I will beg your patience there.

 

Regards,Cloud

 

ps,before I forget,could you possibly come up with a reference for Wang Xian Zhai denying the Bagua-Yi connection.I really would like to hear that side of it & have no idea where to start.

[thaddeus]

It obviously resonates strongly for me, I get it and am over-anxious to share the profound joy it gives to me...

 

So I beat people over the head with it-...cause at heart I'm just a lone gander (or bull-goose loony) looking for the flock, honking and ha-wonking with good news- I found the field where we all can be fed...

Remember? It's the original field...where we learned to eat the good stuff to get strong & healthy...Where we learned what it means to be a part of this world. Where we got some clues on how to be the best we can be...

Yeah, I can definately understand how when you see the truth in something you want to share it. I think most of us are in the same boat--having friends, acquaintances, co-workers who just don't give a damn. And the precious few times I do meet someone who is interested in something 'more' like these topics, the conversation usually ends up to be talking at each other. Don Miguel Ruiz and Eckart Tolle are very two influential people who are helping me wake up via their books and cds. Cloud, since you have some time coming up, I think it's well worth it instead of *adding* something, spend some time dissolving ego ala similar to these guys teachings.

I have some old YiChing books so out of respect to you guys and in the interest of the tao, I'll take another look and digest your ideas...

T

p.s. cloud, i'll see what i can dig up..i think it was in one of his rants, which he had quite a few, on the state of martial arts

[Wayfarer64]

Hi Cloud,

 

I started the thread to bring out the misconceptions about the book by way of the devination thing -where most folks get their introduction. I wanted to relate it to the common practice of using prayer for petitioning and how both were tied to striving egos and not necessarily connecting with higher consciousness per se...Which I thought could be brought out in this thread -and I guess it has, with yr help...

 

I began studying the Yi Jing at 14 years old -back in '68. This when my first real love gave me a copy of the Wilhelm/Baynes translation. She was/is a very deep and spiritual person and I was mad for her. So I began on a level where I was desperate to learn the secrets and share them with her....I've actually calmed down in my Taoist fervor some from those days!!!

 

Now, I've begun to believe that it may be wisest to approach the deeper aspects of Taoism in one's later years. The calm needed to practice non-striving and letting go of the ego is very difficult at any age, but knowing death is less than half your lifetime away helps one let go. When young we already feel immortal anyway and that is usually all the immortality we get in this life.

 

No amount of striving will change that- when we do not understand the basic pronciples of how these practices lead us back to our inner selves and our connectivity to the larger world found there.

 

It is my belief that The Tao- or the united forces of the universe -whatever we hoplessly try to name- it ... will not grant much more than charismatic powers to beings that are not themselves well-balanced within that cosmic system.

 

It seems to me that great art and wise teachings and great love-making and the appreciation of clouds -all the transcendant aspects of being- pass through us as if on their own journey and we are but a vehicle for their power. That is the nature of Creativity. It needs the Receptive to manifest. We can create nothing without letting ourselves become the vessels for the creativity to manifest. Channeling energy is the new-age wording, but it is just the ageold way of the world to keep-on growing...

 

Many thanks for your insight on this thread- its helped me see how others relate to the Yi Jing's many uses and applications.

-Pat

 

PS -how am I doin on the paragraph thing!?

Edited October 10, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[cloud recluse]

Cloud, since you have some time coming up, I think it's well worth it instead of *adding* something, spend some time dissolving ego ala similar to these guys teachings..

 

Actually,I may do just that.Thanx man

 

 

Many thanks for your insight on this thread- its helped me see how others relate to the Yi Jing's many uses and applications.

-Pat

 

PS -how am I doin on the paragraph thing!?

 

Im just glad you brought up the topic.i think anyone whose going to "be a Daoist" nowadays is going to encounter the subject of the Yi in one way or another.I liked being able to have somewhere to get feedback on my speculations.Now I only wish Id had more to do with the Yu Shin Dao group at the time.

 

And yes,youre doing fine on the paragraph thing

[freeform]

The potentiality we live in is such that *anything* is possible.

 

So that must include the potential of the I Ching to be able to tell you your future!

 

 

sorry had to do it.

 

I found a page that was interesting concerning I Ching and alchemical practice. http://www.healingtao.org/deutsch/artikel10.htm

 

I'd like to get into the I Ching, but am finding it rather difficult to learn from a book... I really need someone to show me how they go about using the I Ching themselves. Wayfarer, when I have time, I'll give your I Ching poetry a thorough read, maybe that'll inspire me. I have Stephen Karcher's Total I Ching that was very highly recomended by Michael Winn. Apparently Karcher fuses the two interpretations of I Ching (Confucian and Taosit) very effectively, and Winn said this is the I Ching book for cultivators. I'm still on the Introduction section after many months - I still dont get how it all works, I feel as if I'm back in maths class at school.

 

PS congrats on getting into paragraphs, Way!

[Wayfarer64]

Thanks Freeform for the great link-I'll add it to my links page- http://www.pdgart.com/lipnf.html - this ASAP- I shall also get a copy or the Karcher book ASAP and get back to ya on what I relate to etc...

I appreciate all entries here as I am very interested in how any - but mostly western Taoists - relate to the book of changes...

[三江源]

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Edited April 20, 2015 by 三江源

[Ian]

I read an article in the sunday paper about computerised random - ness. People using the ipod shuffle were getting upset by how frequenly the same songs were coming up. Turns out that what is mathematically random is not what we think of as 'random' - we think of random as meaning we are offered many many choices, so we are unlikely to get a repeat.

So it seems that human randomness is MORE random than mathematical randomness.

Freeform and Wayfarer - I also have the Karcher books. I also find it daunting to figure it all out alone.

 

I have a site that does people little automated tarot readings. The chap who sorted out the randomising seems to have done it pretty well, but then he is way clever.

[freeform]

A computer can never be truly random... I've not gotten into finding out why, but apparently it's a mathematical impossibility... it can only aproximate randomness... So people that build slot machines can play and win consistently, because they know the 'aproximation' algorithm, so have a basic idea of what will come up when.

 

I once dreamed up a mechanical random number generator that you could plug into your computer... it could be pretty usefull in a lot of ways.