Taijiquan

[realfastcat]

Zhang Sanfeng who was a master in both White Crane Style and Snake Style Kung fu as well as the Straight Sword,

was certainly influenced by Neo-Confucians, Zen Buddhists, and Shaolin Monks, Yet his Master was the Taoist Tao Yin Master and hermit poet Xu Xuanping. Ancient Yang and Wu family documents confirm this.

 

http://pureinsight.org/node/5952

My thread is saying Zhang Sanfeng did exist, was from Wu Dang Mountain, developed the Art that we refer to now

as Taijiquan and was TAOIST. and that Taijiquan is a Taoist Art.

 

minor disclaimer: I am not a Taoist or a Taijiquan player.( I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night)

[Sloppy Zhang]

Origins and development of taijiquan.

 

If Zhang Sanfeng existed, then where is the lineage which goes directly back to him?

 

Which style of Tai Chi is from him, and how do other styles fit into this?

 

For instance, you can trace the lineage of the Chen family tai chi pretty much right back to the founding of Chen village. You can see when, where, and with whom Chen Tai Chi broke off and became Yang style, Wu Style, Sun style, and where and with whom it mixed with other arts.

 

The article in the original post says this:

Later, Zhang Sanfeng taught one set of boxing forms to Zhang Songxi and Zhang Cuisan, which was the very original form of Taiji boxing.

 

Who did they teach? Where did they teach? Who kept passing it down, and where/when did it transform into what is seen today?

Edited November 15, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Stigweard]

[zerostao]

i thought about posting this one in the "entry level taoist" thread. a lot of great points being made there.

and it could be most useful for an entry level taoist as the terms wuji, taiji, yin yang, 5 elements, 4 phases, 8 trigrams, emptiness jin,qi, shen,etc could all be adressed.

in this thread i can also say welcome back to Stigweard welcome back matey!! hope all is well in your neck of the tao?!

 

so, without knowing the theories of the above terms i have mentioned(plus others) and without knowing the theory of Tao, one's taijiquan practice would be limited to the external form and movements and thus one would have lost the real meaning of practicing taijiquan. such a waste that would be. sure external taijiquan is still a healthy exercise but it is much much more.

 

as Taomeow has mentioned recently, a post , a thread is a very limited space to address these deep theories.

Taijiquan has its origins in the I Ching and The Tao Te Ching, its origins are Taoist. not only does the limits of a post or a thread but even of time itself restrain what some of us on this forum would greatly enjoy to share.

 

i will share this from Wang Zong-Yue a taijiquan master from shanxi province during the qing qian long period.

 

"What is taiji? It is generated from Wuji, and is a pivotal function of movement and stillness. It is the mother of Yin and Yang. When it moves it divides. at rest it reUNITES. from this it is known that Taiji is not Wuji, and it is not yin and Yang. Instead as inclination of the natural pivotal function which makes wuji derive into Yin and Yang also makes the Yin and Yang reUNITE into the state of Wuji. this natural pivotal function of movement and stillness is called the "TAO" or the rule of the great nature."

 

and from Zhou Wen Wang (who was the first ruler of the zhou dynasty, some 3000 years ago) who points out as he wrote an interpretation for The Book of Changes, that becoz of the existence of taiji(grand Ultimate) there are changes in the universe. taiji is an invisable force which makes the wuji divide into 2 polarities and also from 2 polarities return back to wuji state. what is taiji? it is the tao.

[Sloppy Zhang]

i will share this from Wang Zong-Yue a taijiquan master from shanxi province during the qing qian long period.

 

A legendary tai chi master... as in, hear lots of stories... as in, no confirmation of his actual existence.

 

His existence IS important to people who insist that tai chi came from Zhang Sanfeng (or was otherwise a purely taoist creation), because they connect him to Jiang Fa, who is then connected to the Chen family. So that way, when people say "Tai Chi came from Chen village, which originally practiced a shaolin form", then taoist people who want a lineage can say "well where did Chen learn it from? The Taoist stuff came from sharing and learning with Jiang Fa, and Jiang Fa got it directly from a Zhang Sanfeng lineage, so there!"

 

Yes, the philosophy is Taoist.

 

The health and energetic principles that are used to develop health and power are Taoist.

 

The martial strategies are inspired by Taoist philosophy.

 

All of that was used to enhance and revitalize a Shaolin martial art.

 

So yes, tai chi is taoist. And it can be taoist without having to grasp at straws in the hopes that you can somehow connect yourself to a legend.

 

That aside, it was common practice in China for people to attribute their art to a legendary founder. So... yeah. Not to say that there isn't value in what's there. Just that you shouldn't cling too desperately to a legendary story, unless you've got some facts.

 

Here's a good snippet from an article on Chen Wangting on wikipedia (and follow up with the sources cited in the article for more reading):

Two widely-documented theories of Chen's martial arts work exist: the first is that he learnt his arts from Wang Zongyue and the Wudang tradition developed by Zhang Sanfeng.[2] The second theory — the one accepted by the Chen family, and supported by historical evidence[3] — is that he combined his previous military experience and the theories of Jingluo and Daoyin with the popular teachings of Qi Jiguang.[4] His complete work contained five smaller sets of forms, a 108-move Long Fist routine, and a Cannon Fist routine. Chen is also credited with the invention of the first push hands exercises.[1] Chen also practiced a few Shaolin forms, and some historians postulate that Shaolin arts also had a significant influence on his tai chi, though none of the Taoist influences on Chen family tai chi exist in the Shaolin tradition.[2]

Edited November 15, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[zerostao]

A legendary tai chi master... as in, hear lots of stories... as in, no confirmation of his actual existence.

 

His existence IS important to people who insist that tai chi came from Zhang Sanfeng (or was otherwise a purely taoist creation), because they connect him to Jiang Fa, who is then connected to the Chen family. So that way, when people say "Tai Chi came from Chen village, which originally practiced a shaolin form", then taoist people who want a lineage can say "well where did Chen learn it from? The Taoist stuff came from sharing and learning with Jiang Fa, and Jiang Fa got it directly from a Zhang Sanfeng lineage, so there!"

 

Yes, the philosophy is Taoist.

 

The health and energetic principles that are used to develop health and power are Taoist.

 

The martial strategies are inspired by Taoist philosophy.

 

All of that was used to enhance and revitalize a Shaolin martial art.

 

So yes, tai chi is taoist. And it can be taoist without having to grasp at straws in the hopes that you can somehow connect yourself to a legend.

 

That aside, it was common practice in China for people to attribute their art to a legendary founder. So... yeah. Not to say that there isn't value in what's there. Just that you shouldn't cling too desperately to a legendary story, unless you've got some facts.

 

Here's a good snippet from an article on Chen Wangting on wikipedia (and follow up with the sources cited in the article for more reading):

 

 

 

excellent post SZ. and how quickly you pointed out my link from Wang Zong Yue to Zhang Sanfeng!

in fact i have never claimed to have met Wang Zong Yue or Zhang Sanfeng in person

even if i do reckon they are lurking about.

so many taoist legends , do you reckon any of them really ever existed? Lao Tzu, Yellow Emperor,

Fu Xi. also the un-named taoist hermits who went about teaching Baguazhang to people that we can say in fact did exist.

Does Lu dongbin exist? did he ever? Sun Tzu? did the shaolin da mo ever really exist?

If they never existed it is curious that these knowledges , arts, philosophies, great gifts to humanity do exist? where do they come from? ah, from folks who never existed?

[Sloppy Zhang]

excellent post SZ. and how quickly you pointed out my link from Wang Zong Yue to Zhang Sanfeng!

in fact i have never claimed to have met Wang Zong Yue or Zhang Sanfeng in person

even if i do reckon they are lurking about.

so many taoist legends , do you reckon any of them really ever existed? Lao Tzu, Yellow Emperor,

Fu Xi. also the un-named taoist hermits who went about teaching Baguazhang to people that we can say in fact did exist.

Does Lu dongbin exist? did he ever? Sun Tzu? did the shaolin da mo ever really exist?

If they never existed it is curious that these knowledges , arts, philosophies, great gifts to humanity do exist? where do they come from? ah, from folks who never existed?

 

They did and did not exist

 

Why do they have to come from someone in particular?

 

Taoists and members of countless other traditions have been living in the world and exploring themselves and consciousness for thousands of years. With each generation, their collective body of knowledge gets passed on, remembered, and refined.

 

Why did Zang Sanfeng have to view two animals fighting and then pass it wholesale on to someone?

 

Why does Lu Dongbin have to exist to reveal the entirety of internal alchemy to his student, who passes it on in some dubious lineage to someone now teaching it?

 

Can't it be enough that these practices exist, and that we got them from the previous generations? And is it asking too much that these practices not only exist, but that they can produce the results that they claim to?

 

I don't think it's too much. We don't need to create a legendary figure to be a font of knowledge. Countless hardworking cultivators brought it to us! We are responsible for bringing it to others! If you've got a practice that can bring about immortality, great, use it, teach it, spread it to the world! What do you gain by spreading around stories of some immortal who could fly on clouds and defeat 100,000 bandits? What does anybody else gain? Absolutely nothing.

[zerostao]

They did and did not exist

 

Why do they have to come from someone in particular?

 

Taoists and members of countless other traditions have been living in the world and exploring themselves and consciousness for thousands of years. With each generation, their collective body of knowledge gets passed on, remembered, and refined.

 

Why did Zang Sanfeng have to view two animals fighting and then pass it wholesale on to someone?

 

Why does Lu Dongbin have to exist to reveal the entirety of internal alchemy to his student, who passes it on in some dubious lineage to someone now teaching it?

 

Can't it be enough that these practices exist, and that we got them from the previous generations? And is it asking too much that these practices not only exist, but that they can produce the results that they claim to?

 

I don't think it's too much. We don't need to create a legendary figure to be a font of knowledge. Countless hardworking cultivators brought it to us! We are responsible for bringing it to others! If you've got a practice that can bring about immortality, great, use it, teach it, spread it to the world! What do you gain by spreading around stories of some immortal who could fly on clouds and defeat 100,000 bandits? What does anybody else gain? Absolutely nothing.

 

+1 SZ. i have to go to class now %^&*!!!

i will edit this laterz.

[gendao]

[寒月 Hanyue]

Just for clarification purposes.

 

Is this thread discussing the origin/history of 'Taiji' or Taijiquan? Related but separate things no?

 

Best,

[Taomeow]

The problem with dismissing legends and myths is that this dismissal is a myth in itself, the currently propagated Great Myth of Skepticism. What is and isn't true within its framework is a matter of blind faith in its own right. Few people have investigated it for its validity, they simply accept the prevalent stance, the one currently supported. Who and how and why made them assume this stance, they don't know. It's the myth of the century and it assaults them from every venue and so they wind up embracing it without knowing what it really is they have embraced.

 

For countless centuries that went before, the stance was different. It was universally accepted that humans are capable of retaining historic information via oral transmissions and are not all that creative and imaginative in making self-consistent things up. People believed that they are more likely to remember and re-tell stories of real events, real people and real places they were told by those who have been there than to create plots and scenarios and spin tales -- not everybody is born a script writer, but everybody is born an oral transmitter... and in a culture that valued this skill above all else, as did every pre-literal culture on earth, it was unlikely that it would be treated sloppily and irresponsibly. Hundreds of thousands of libraries were burned, but oral transmissions survived those fires. Floods and earthquakes and wars demolished civilizations with their records and artifacts but oral transmissions survived those floods and earthquakes and wars. So if a "legend" or a "myth" persevered, it was generally accepted as more reliable a source than any new bureacratic or religious or political edict promulgating from above the acceptance or denial of this or that opinion as true or false.

 

So, um, I believe myths and legends to a much greater extent than the latest and the greatest skeptical denials, simply because the latter are a johnny-come-lately of information and knowledge acquisition, easy come, easy go, while the former is how we ever learned anything at all about anything throughout our history. So Zhang Sanfeng is real to me, my Chen lineage which they trace to him is real to me to the same extent as the art of its transmitters, and to take a stance that places me above their understanding in a skeptical foray of know-it-all superior authority would be not only disrespectful, it would be idiotic. Prove what you preach with your life, I tell the carrier of the Skepticism Myth. The carriers of the Zhang Sanfeng myth do. Do their detractors? Yeah right. They are the greatest masters of the taiji of the mouth. The day one of them kicks one of the Four Tigers' ass with that skeptically trained tongue is the day I will start paying attention to its supreme ultimate flappings. Until then, I remain supremely skeptical of the skeptics.

[zerostao]

Just for clarification purposes.

 

Is this thread discussing the origin/history of 'Taiji' or Taijiquan? Related but separate things no?

 

Best,

 

the OP mentioning of zhang sanfeng and taijiquan has me thinking this is about origins of taijiquan.

the Op stating taijiquan as a Taoist art has me pointing to the relations and meanings of taiji

in taijiquan. imo this can not be properly addresed with a couple of posts.

 

i am taking the position that taijiquan originates from taoist family with the goal of ultimately reaching enlightenment.

and in so doing achieves the TAO of unification between human and heaven. i saw this very recently on another thread

only they said uniting human qi with heaven qi, and i fully agree with that. anyways..

the final goal of practicing taijiquan is not to be the grandpa badass (to borrow from another thread) but rather to reach a

unified harmony with wuji. the wuji of the human and with heaven. and by practicing taijiquan we come to understand/comprehend

the meaning of the universe and the meaning of human life. the truth, the tao, the true tao.

in the meanwhile , i dont think there is anything wrong with being a grandpa badass, just saying.

 

it is a challenge to express feeling and sensitivity , spirit and awareness, things of taiji, taijiquan, tao in black and white words

that someone reads on their monitor.

Joeblast, Trunk, Taomeow , starjumper7, and others here do it alot more effectively than i do.

edit> i posted this b4 i saw Taomeow's latest addition to this thread. wow that is a good one .and i wanted to add this thought , i try to think of my mind as being the taiji in the taijiquan.

Edited November 15, 2011 by zerostao

[Taomeow]

You are consistently generous and kind to me, Zerostao, thank you. And I like your contributions very much too.

 

Taiji of taijiquan the mind? That's quite an idea!

 

Which mind? Surely the one in the head has its say in it, that's where "verbal" and "conceptual" taoist principles are stored... I'm nowhere near running it on autopilot, but I suspect high-level masters store this "taiji mind" everywhere... and even nowhere! I've had brief glimpses... There's this high level guy who says, "don't cultivate qi, don't cultivate yi, cultivate emptiness." I think he stores his mind in the wuji.

[ChiDragon]

Just for clarification purposes.

 

Is this thread discussing the origin/history of 'Taiji' or Taijiquan? Related but separate things no?

 

Best,

 

This thread is about the history of Taijiquan. BTW 'Taiji' is also short for Taijiquan. There is no distinction between Taiji and Taijiquan here.

 

Unless, one is thinking the 'Taiji' in the Yijing, then Taiji is different from Taijiquan; but it is in the complementary relationship with 'Wuji'.

Edited November 16, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

Great contributions to this thread!

I hope I don't spoil it....

 

 

 

My thread is saying Zhang Sanfeng did exist, was from Wu Dang Mountain, developed the Art that we refer to now

as Taijiquan and was TAOIST. and that Taijiquan is a Taoist Art.

 

What does it matter? Taijiquan exists, it's spirit exists, it's origins in human and spiritual endeavor exist.

It's effectiveness exists (in a precious few who train long and hard enough).

I'm not too concerned with debate over a legendary figure, be it Jesus, Zhang San Feng, Buddha, Lao Zi, or whomever.

What counts is the mythology, the archetypes, the inherent value in the methods and ideas, and the fact that we still practice and celebrate it today.

Yay!

 

 

 

so, without knowing the theories of the above terms i have mentioned(plus others) and without knowing the theory of Tao, one's taijiquan practice would be limited to the external form and movements and thus one would have lost the real meaning of practicing taijiquan. such a waste that would be. sure external taijiquan is still a healthy exercise but it is much much more.

 

Sorry to disagree but...

 

My perspective as both a student and teacher of Taijiquan is a bit different. I don't find a knowledge of theory to be an advantage in how someone learns or practices Taijiquan. I find the practice to be an experiential and 'de novo' art. The theory is the mind's way of telling itself it "understands" after the fact, which is a matter of our inherent insecurity. I don't believe that the theory created the art. My teacher has always said that the martial arts came first. People figured out with their bones and blood how to use softness and sticking in combat. Later, the brain made a theory of it or linked it to existing theory. My students' progress has little or nothing to do with theoretical knowledge. It has to do first with learning physical movements through imitation and repetition. Second, with turning inward and feeling the movement from the inside out in a profound and thorough manner. And third, connecting that awareness to others and extending that feeling into and around them. The theory is literally an afterthought. It's an image of the experience made up of mental symbols.

 

-quan = martial skill, so in Taijiquan we're talking about developing skill in fighting. It was many generations before the characters for Tai Ji were applied to the martial art, further evidence to support the theory came later. There is no question that the internal component exists and is important. And there are places you will never get In Taijiquan without an associated Daoist meditation practice (also according to my teacher, which I fully agree with). And the meditation practice is equally experiential and does not depend in any way on Daoist knowledge or theory. The theory is, again, a symbolic representation of an experience.

 

I was helping to teach a Bagua seminar this weekend and one of my students was struggling and getting very frustrated with the 8th palm change. I watched him digging himself a deeper and deeper hole, watching the intellect confusing itself trying to understand, and convincing itself that it was not going to get it, and needed to stop. I interrupted the cycle, refused to allow him to talk about it or think about it and got him physically focused on simple imitation and repetition and he got it, no problem. Then comes the months and years of repetition, the inner work, and the application. Then theory can say it understands (or even created) all of that... meh

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you that Taijiquan is much more than external physical movement but the internal part is NOT theory. It is an additional and challenging experiential practice in and of itself. It is separate from theory. And no knowledge of theory is a substitute for the practice. One of the greatest things I've taken from my Taijiquan training is awareness of the limitation of the intellectual and theoretical and the importance of balancing it with the experiential - the un"know"able. There is certainly intellectual, social, practical, etc.... value to Daoist theory, but I advise caution regarding the dangers of assuming one "knows" something like Taijiquan or Daoist meditation as a result of understanding theory.

 

 

They did and did not exist

 

Why do they have to come from someone in particular?

 

Taoists and members of countless other traditions have been living in the world and exploring themselves and consciousness for thousands of years. With each generation, their collective body of knowledge gets passed on, remembered, and refined.

 

Great point. What exists, exists. It is there. Whatever it is/was that gave rise to the existence of Taijiquan in this world is/was here and is available to those who seek it with appropriate diligence and respect. Perhaps Zhang San Feng was the Steve Jobs of the 14th century and perhaps not.

 

 

 

 

For countless centuries that went before, the stance was different. It was universally accepted that humans are capable of retaining historic information via oral transmissions and are not all that creative and imaginative in making self-consistent things up. People believed that they are more likely to remember and re-tell stories of real events, real people and real places they were told by those who have been there than to create plots and scenarios and spin tales -- not everybody is born a script writer, but everybody is born an oral transmitter... and in a culture that valued this skill above all else, as did every pre-literal culture on earth, it was unlikely that it would be treated sloppily and irresponsibly. Hundreds of thousands of libraries were burned, but oral transmissions survived those fires. Floods and earthquakes and wars demolished civilizations with their records and artifacts but oral transmissions survived those floods and earthquakes and wars. So if a "legend" or a "myth" persevered, it was generally accepted as more reliable a source than any new bureacratic or religious or political edict promulgating from above the acceptance or denial of this or that opinion as true or false.

 

So, um, I believe myths and legends to a much greater extent than the latest and the greatest skeptical denials, simply because the latter are a johnny-come-lately of information and knowledge acquisition, easy come, easy go, while the former is how we ever learned anything at all about anything throughout our history. So Zhang Sanfeng is real to me, my Chen lineage which they trace to him is real to me to the same extent as the art of its transmitters, and to take a stance that places me above their understanding in a skeptical foray of know-it-all superior authority would be not only disrespectful, it would be idiotic. Prove what you preach with your life, I tell the carrier of the Skepticism Myth. The carriers of the Zhang Sanfeng myth do. Do their detractors? Yeah right. They are the greatest masters of the taiji of the mouth. The day one of them kicks one of the Four Tigers' ass with that skeptically trained tongue is the day I will start paying attention to its supreme ultimate flappings. Until then, I remain supremely skeptical of the skeptics.

Very good points.

I have always been a skeptic - my father's son.

I've also woken up enough to understand that many things I previously dismissed, make perfect sense.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Whether Zhang San Feng is archetypal or literal is less important to me than seeing the value and assimilating what is being presented.

Having an open mind not to dismiss and the humility to show due respect are two things I've been working on.

[Sloppy Zhang]

The problem with dismissing legends and myths is that this dismissal is a myth in itself

 

Who's dismissing them? Certainly not me, I hope

 

They did and did not exist

 

I said that pretty specifically.

 

For me, personally, the possibility for them to exist is there. The reality that they very well may have existed is there. The reality that, if they were truly immortal, they'd still exist today is there.

 

It is what it is. And it is certainly not something which would be accepted with modern skepticism. So in that sense, they simultaneously do not exist

 

At least for me. I'm perfectly capable of believing both at the same time. This bothers skeptics because they think I'm rational up to a point, then I just fly off the edge. And it bothers "believers" (what would I call them, hmm?) because I can listen to their stories and then respond with a smile "prove it".

 

What is and isn't true within its framework is a matter of blind faith in its own right. Few people have investigated it for its validity, they simply accept the prevalent stance, the one currently supported. Who and how and why made them assume this stance, they don't know. It's the myth of the century and it assaults them from every venue and so they wind up embracing it without knowing what it really is they have embraced.

 

I can't speak for anyone but myself. But I know what got me on it. And it was a fraudulent martial arts teacher who could spin a good yarn and keep his students quiet with the same old lines like "sifu says this, so shut up and train" and things like that.

 

Is it possible that names and places could be faked and believed in a credible manner? That the Chen village is an elaborate hoax created by the immortal magic of Zhang Sanfeng to disguise his spreading of the true taoist tai chi teachings? Well yeah, it's possible.

 

But you know, when I can look up someone and find their name, date, residence, family tree, and who they generally studied with, I start to believe it a little more.

 

Another fairy tale?

 

Call it whatever you want.

 

It is what it is. Sometimes it is the same as something, sometimes it is not the same as something else.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[zerostao]

another fairy tale? i hope it has dragons!

i always enjoy steve's and Sloppy Zhang's posts and insights too. all bums really. i do have troubles expressing what i wish to convey while i was speaking threory, i was feeling,,, feeling. we feel our internal taijiquan? yes? no? we feel our external taijiquan too?

we flow?

steve, thank you for dis-agreeing with me. sticking, sticking, sticking yes. reading your post i do not dis-agree with it at all.

Bagua seminar?! wow, great stuff there. i am willing to hitch-hike, hop a train, steele a car to get to such things as that. 8th palm change. i got stuck and frustrated at 6th it is the frustration i cannot live without.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

what about the Taoist orgins of Qi Gong or the Qi Gong origins of Tai Chi? I got the impression that Tai Chi was basically an extensive set of Qi Gong movments with martial application.

[ChiDragon]

what about the Taoist orgins of Qi Gong or the Qi Gong origins of Tai Chi? I got the impression that Tai Chi was basically an extensive set of Qi Gong movments with martial application.

 

Qi Gong and Tai Chi are two different styles. Tai Chi is a form of Qi Gong, but Qi Qong is not necessary Tai Chi. Those who practice Qi Qong may not know Tai Chi; and those who do practice Tai Chi is doing Qi Gong already because of the improvement in breathing.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Qi Gong and Tai Chi are two different styles. Tai Chi is a form of Qi Gong, but Qi Qong is not necessary Tai Chi. Those who practice Qi Qong may not know Tai Chi; and those who do practice Tai Chi is doing Qi Gong already because of the improvement in breathing.

 

I don't know, I've never learned Tai Chi properly, but Qi Gong, ime, involves more purification, bringing chi into the body, clearing stagnation, etc.. Tai Chi doesn't seem as focused on the healing side of it, but it seems like it came about as a longer set of movements. However, I don't think so many Tai Chi students are thinking, 'ok, draw chi into middle dan tien with this move, and remove stagnation with this move.' It seems more of just a way to sychronize mind breath and body to them, while underneath a Qi Gong practitioner can see the movement differently; yin force and yang force becomes gathering and purging respectively. At least that's what it looks like to me.

 

My main question, is that if Qi Gong is of Taoist origin, then Tai Chi must be if Tai Chi is secretly or not so secretly a longer series of Qi Gong. I suppose some are more than others too.

 

Does Tai Chi, at some level, say 'this moves cleanses your liver, and this move energizes your middle dan tien'?

[doc benway]

I don't know, I've never learned Tai Chi properly, but Qi Gong, ime, involves more purification, bringing chi into the body, clearing stagnation, etc.. Tai Chi doesn't seem as focused on the healing side of it, but it seems like it came about as a longer set of movements. However, I don't think so many Tai Chi students are thinking, 'ok, draw chi into middle dan tien with this move, and remove stagnation with this move.' It seems more of just a way to sychronize mind breath and body to them, while underneath a Qi Gong practitioner can see the movement differently; yin force and yang force becomes gathering and purging respectively. At least that's what it looks like to me.

 

My main question, is that if Qi Gong is of Taoist origin, then Tai Chi must be if Tai Chi is secretly or not so secretly a longer series of Qi Gong. I suppose some are more than others too.

 

Does Tai Chi, at some level, say 'this moves cleanses your liver, and this move energizes your middle dan tien'?

 

Qigong is a methodology that combines movement, breathing, and awareness in order to achieve certain results. The majority of Qigong focuses on health and wellness, 8 Brocades is a good example. Some, such as the Shiba Luohangong, focus more on developing internal power to be used for martial development. Finally, Taiji forms are a very specialized form of Qigong that have been developed specifically more Taijiquan training.

 

If you practice Taiji forms properly you are doing internal work that is very similar to but in some ways more complex than other Qigong forms in addition to the physical movement and breathing. Like other forms, you will experience energetic benefits from regular practice of the form. My teacher tells us that a properly constructed Taiji form is very much a full system energetic workout. In addition, the length of the Taiji forms, the incorporation of more complex footwork and stepping patterns, and other characteristics make the Taiji forms even more valuable (arguably) when it comes to things like balance, blood pressure, bone health, lung capacity, and other physical benefits. The real reason I referred to Tai forums as specialized is that their construction and associated internal training yields some very unique and specific benefits relative to martial arts skill.

 

As far as these arts being Daoist, they clearly are consistent with Daoist methods and principles and are widely practiced by the Daoist community. The practice of Daoist meditation is perfectly aligned with Taiji form practice such that the combination of the two is much more effective than Taiji form practice alone. I can't comment on the historical perspective as I'm no authority. And frankly, it doesn't much matter. The practice is the practice regardless of how you label it.

[ChiDragon]

1. My main question, is that if Qi Gong is of Taoist origin, then Tai Chi must be if Tai Chi is secretly or not so secretly a longer series of Qi Gong. I suppose some are more than others too.

 

2. Does Tai Chi, at some level, say 'this moves cleanses your liver, and this move energizes your middle dan tien'?

 

1. Yes, Qi Gong is a Taoist origin. At least they were emphasized to practice it for better health and longevity.

 

2. Tai Chi is constantly practice in the Taoist temple in the Wudang Mountain. When the name "Wudang" was mentioned, it was understood that it is the Taoist religion. One can tell by the way the practitioners dressed Taoist attires. The legend of Tai Chi was developed by a Taoist.

 

Qi Qong is more involved with breathing, while Tai Chi is more with muscle exercise which induce breathing chi into the lower dan tien progressively. Any method that breathes chi into the lower dan tien will cleanse all the internal organs other than just each individual organ. Chi sunk to the lower dan tien is more effective for health benefits or to generate body strength. Thus the highest goal in Qi Gong or martial art was to sunk Chi to the lower tien. If one practice Qi Gong and was not able to sunk Chi into the lower dan tien, then, one has not accomplish any health or martial art benefits.

 

 

Note:

By definition, when dan tien was mentioned, it was understood it was referred to the "lower dan tien". Unless it was specified otherwise. e.g. "Sunk Chi to the dan tien." It was understood that "sunk Chi to the lower dan tien.

Edited November 21, 2011 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

 

My main question, is that if Qi Gong is of Taoist origin, then Tai Chi must be if Tai Chi is secretly or not so secretly a longer series of Qi Gong. I suppose some are more than others too.

 

Does Tai Chi, at some level, say 'this moves cleanses your liver, and this move energizes your middle dan tien'?

 

qigong predates daoism as its thought of today, although so does daoism if you know what i mean. I mean that there are qigongs with roots in shamanism and pre-lao pre-yellow emperor china. There are native american qigongs, and, i think, african qigongs, and probably euro-shamanic qigongs but i have never heard of them. So i think its incorrect to say that qigong is of daoist origin. Just 2c not trying to be argumentative.

 

and yes taiji at a higher level is like qigongs, where you can draw energy in, or up, or use the breath and body movement to accomplish specific purposes. My qigong/taiji teacher teaches some of the taiji movements as just qigong, like silk reeling to chen style for example, but you can do that with any taiji movement. Well, that last part is extrapolation, i am eager to hear if anyone disagrees with it...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for the answers Steve, Chi, and Anamatva.

 

I guess it makes sense that a large part of the organ exercise in Qi Gong has to do with lifting and stretching the arms and body so Tai Chi would naturally help too.

 

It would still be interesting to hear a myth or something about the transformation from Qi Gong to Tai Chi, but I guess it's there every time you practice it

[realfastcat]

Thanks everyone for the differing views. It gives me much to chew on and digest.

I suppose some Taijiquan teachers may teach it more externally/martially ?

 

If we use Taijiquan as a moving meditation without considering the martial potentials,

does it become a Medical Qigong?

does it become a Spirtual Qigong?

 

My initial idea about Taijiquan now is that it can be used for various purposes.

Theory may be useful but it still takes the Bio-Mechanics practice (doing the forms many years)

before a proper understanding is achieved? A few players may benefit from understanding the theory,

in that they know what they are trying to achieve? Are these fair question?

 

So, if I have understood ? Medical Qigong predates Taoist Qigong? How can we know if that is in fact

true?

So when did the Taoist school begin?