Tao, Taoism, Motivation, and Reality

[The Way Is Virtue]

A few thoughts on Tao, Taoism, motivation, and reality.

 

Within what is called Taoism is what is a very loosely based collection of many different traditions, views, approaches, beliefs, and practices with many different influences and sources. Some traditions have long since passed, some have gone through various changes and some have branched out in different ways, and others are hybrids of various different things. A lot of what many people might think of as Taoism today is in reality only mixed bits and pieces of former systems or traditions often with many 'new' things or ideas thrown in as well. While some traditions are certainly still in existence, being able to determine what is 'authentic' and what is a complete system and what is not is no straight forward matter. When you understand that when looked at over the long term that any given system may have gone through many changes and had various influences over its existence, even trying to apply the concept of 'authentic' may not be too useful.

 

The point I am trying to make here is from my own limited experience and understanding there is no one single coherent thing or group of things that is Taoism. Attempts in the past and even the present have been made to try to collect many of these widely varying and different traditions and practices into more of a unified group, but as best as I can gather there really is no single such thing as Taoism. Taoism is essentially just a label that has been used to describe a lot of traditions and practices that existed in China, and there are at least some commonalities between many different traditions and practices, but that's about as far as it goes from what I have been able to gather. Even if a person were to focus on just a particular tradition that is still in existence, you are very likely to find variations in views and practices amongst different teachers and practitioners of that tradition. This as best as I can gather is the reality of the situation. Wide diversity, change, and wide variations in interpretation and practices all seem to be a part of what has been included under the name of Taoism.

 

Not everything that is called Taoism (AKA Daoism) is necessarily good, and sometimes some practices or approaches may even be harmful, or a complete waste of time, or may include much superstitious views and practices. That is not to say that there are not many good things within Taoism as well. There is no easy way to draw a line between what is good and what is bad, as such is also strongly influenced by an individual's own way of looking at things and their own personal value system. Also, within good there can often be at least some bad, and vice versa. Sometimes we are blind to what is really there in front of us and we may not get a broader picture and understanding until much later, if we are lucky enough to get any better understanding at all. In my opinion the reality is that sometimes those who may present them self, or who are being presented by others, as experts or true bearers of a tradition, etc. may in actuality be far from it, and may be just as lost or deluded or worse than the students and followers they guide and teach. We as humans each have a concept of reality, but a good part of what we might think of as reality is really just a picture we have generated in our minds based on our beliefs, ideas, value system, prior experiences, and our desires, etc. I think much of what I am saying can be applied to almost any spiritual or philosophical system in this world, or any system or way of looking at things for that matter.

 

So where does that leave a person? We can only go with what feels right to us at any given time, but there may be a few things we can do that might help. If we evaluate what are our real goals and reasons and ideas are for taking any given approach or view, or for following any particular system, we may gain some better insight into our situation, even if it is only some small insight. When we are talking about spirituality, it often boils down to what just feels right to each individual person, but there may be certain aspects we can look into to help keep us from getting too far off track. From the point of view of our self, we can look at our personal reasons for taking a certain approach. Are we mainly motivated by selfish or shallow reasons or just pursuing a whimsical idea we hold in our head, or are we driven by something much deeper? As for teachers, if a given teacher is claiming to teach a spiritual or mental (or whatever) cultivation or religious system, how does this teacher really embody the principles they are claiming to teach? Do they show signs of being egotistical, or selfish, over controlling, or abrasive, or deceptive, or vindictive, or just out for self gain or self promotion, or overly sensitive to inquiries about their system or background, or overly sensitive to criticism, etc? Do they mainly focus on promising personal gains or abilities and powers, etc., for the practitioner, or are they mainly focused on increasing insight and understanding and the betterment of all? Something else to keep in mind is that just because a given teacher may be able to demonstrate some unusual ability or abilities, it also doesn't mean that they are necessarily spiritually advanced or more enlightened. It is easy to fall into the trap of being fooled by such things. The ego and our personal desires can be our biggest deceiver.

 

The above is nothing more than some thoughts from my perspective. I make no claims to validity or to having any relation to reality. I just wanted to share a few thoughts on the matter.

Edited November 16, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[ChiDragon]

The term 'Taoism" in English is a belief. It was because of the suffix 'ism'. In Chinese there is no such term. It is either the study of the Tao philosophy or Tao religion. The term "Taoist", 道人 or 道士, is spontaneously applied to a person who is cultivating attempted to be an immortal. At least living a way as a cultivator. The one who studies the Tao philosophy do not consider oneself as a 道人 or 道士(Taoist). If a Westerner can come across the line by looking at Taoism with the point of view of an Easterner instead of a Westerner, I think this confusion would have had been diminished. Again, if the Westerners are only sticking with their own point of view, due to stubbornness, in looking into others' point of view, then this cultural issue in thinking will never be resolved.

Edited December 23, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Protector]

let's change the English language to remove all the confusion

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hi Chi Dragon. That may be a part of it, but it would seem that many traditions actually did not make much real distinction between religious, self cultivation, and philosophical aspects. My impression is that overall it has been viewed as just different aspects. Different traditions may have placed different emphasis on different aspects, and there seems to have been a fair bit of variation in interpretation and implementation.

 

What you are alluding to seems to me to actually be a more modern idea (both Eastern and Western) of trying to group such different aspects into definite distinct classifications. Part of it may have to do with this being just a common approach of modern scholars and modern people, and also part of it may have to do with some people or special interest groups wanting to try to separate aspects out that they find less appealing. In my experience interacting with both modern day Westerners and modern day Chinese, I think what I was referring to in my previous comments can be applicable to anyone. I certainly know that many modern day Chinese have also adopted the term of Taoism or Daoism when speaking English, or a Chinese derived equivalent such as 'Dao school'. I guess at the very least a common aspect that seems to link many of these traditions together is a concept of Dao, a common regard of the Dao De Jing as being an important or key work or scripture, and the idea of immortality, although the exact concept of immortality and its importance seems to have varied somewhat over time and with different traditions. Beyond that it seems there can be very wide differences sometimes with little relation.

Edited November 16, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[ChiDragon]

I have seen an AD on TV about the Taoist temple in the Wudang mountain. It seems to me most of the disciples are Westerners. IMO I think the Westerners just want to hear what they want to hear or influencing their thinking with what they had learned. I do have a feeling that there is a shield in between our communication here already. I think I had failed to communicate my point across. This is not a more modern idea (both Eastern and Western). There is a difference, and always has been, one just need to learn to accept it.

Edited November 16, 2011 by ChiDragon

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hi Chi Dragon. I am just speaking from own experience and understanding and expressing my current thoughts on it. All comments are welcome.

Edited November 16, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[flowing hands]

The Tao Te Ching is not a book of philosophy. It is only the western people who view it such.

 

The Tao Te Ching is a treatise of shamanism, simply this if you understand the original Chinese as I have been given. There are words in the Tao Te Ching that do not have any English direct meaning. Even the expressions that my master had 600Bc are not available now in Chinese. The beginning of Tao comes from the Shaman, the wholeness of his/her being has then been broken up by those who can only see the parts and not the whole. Therefore the full expression of the Tao is the Shamans abilities and far reaching 'sight'. But this is the wrong word, because in English this may mean eyes or senses. But it is far more than this.

[deci belle]

[Jetsun]

Nice post The Way Is Virtue, I agree with you. After reading some of the classic Taoist texts and texts like the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine it seems to me that once upon a time "the ancients" maybe thousands of years ago had a complete system or body of knowledge and it seems to me that mostly what is passed down to us are fragments and at times distortions of that knowledge and it up to us to try to put together the puzzle to try to work out what are genuine teachings and what isn't. Then in modern times you add in the money factor as people realise there is money to be made from this knowledge then people will distort it even more even if it harms people if it results in a profit, which makes figuring all this out even more difficult.

 

Perhaps there are still oral lineages which contain the whole system or whole body of knowledge out there but they are hard to find, someone like Wan Liping might be an example yet I would have to meet him in person and study with before I draw too many conclusions.

[ChiDragon]

let's change the English language to remove all the confusion

 

It was not necessary; a little brainwash will do....

[The Way Is Virtue]

Perhaps there are still oral lineages which contain the whole system or whole body of knowledge out there but they are hard to find, someone like Wang Liping might be an example yet I would have to meet him in person and study with before I draw too many conclusions.

 

Hi Jetsun. I tend to think that there are likely authentic systems still being passed on, but one can only learn what one is ready to learn. If a person is not ready for something, they are not ready for something. I am therefore inclined to think that when the student is truly ready the teacher will appear. I also think that often times the lesson we are ready to learn is not at all the lesson that we may think we are ready to learn. Yes, I find it is better to meet someone in person and spend some time with them before attempting to draw any conclusions.

[ChiDragon]

The Tao Te Ching is not a book of philosophy. It is only the western people who view it such.

 

The Tao Te Ching is a treatise of shamanism, simply this if you understand the original Chinese as I have been given. There are words in the Tao Te Ching that do not have any English direct meaning. Even the expressions that my master had 600Bc are not available now in Chinese. The beginning of Tao comes from the Shaman, the wholeness of his/her being has then been broken up by those who can only see the parts and not the whole. Therefore the full expression of the Tao is the Shamans abilities and far reaching 'sight'. But this is the wrong word, because in English this may mean eyes or senses. But it is far more than this.

Really, only westerner who view it such....??? What do you know about how the Chinese think...??? I'll reserve my comments about the Tao Te Ching is being a treatise of shamanism. However, where have you learned all about the Tao Te Ching....??? It seems to me you had learned quite differently from the rest.....

[Aetherous]

Flowing hands is correct.

[ChiDragon]

Marblehead...

What do you think...???

[doc benway]

The term 'Taoism" in English is a belief. It was because of the suffix 'ism'. In Chinese there is no such term. It is either the study of the Tao philosophy or Tao religion. The term "Taoist", 道人 or 道士, is spontaneously applied to a person who is cultivating attempted to be an immortal. At least living a way as a cultivator. The one how studies the Tao philosophy do not consider oneself as a 道人 or 道士(Taoist).

At last!

Something that we can agree upon...

As my teacher puts it, "I am a Dao disciple"

[flowing hands]

Really, only westerner who view it such....??? What do you know about how the Chinese think...??? I'll reserve my comments about the Tao Te Ching is being a treatise of shamanism. However, where have you learned all about the Tao Te Ching....??? It seems to me you had learned quite differently from the rest.....

 

 

The way is virtue is right in general in what he has posted at the very beginning.What I have said about the beginning of Tao is exactly what I have stated. Li Erh Xian Shi, then put these perspectives down and it is known as the DDJ. Shamanism was the beginning of Tao: an observation of the natural world its interconnection and energies that all living and non-living things share. Following that path is the Tao. Describing it and living it is the difficult part. I know a lot about how Chinese think, how do you think I know??? I have learn't the Tao from my Masters: I do beleive there is no greater substitute!!

[Marblehead]

... Tao: an observation of the natural world its interconnection and energies that all living and non-living things share.

 

Thanks for saying that. This is important in my understanding of Taoism.

[ChiDragon]

The way is virtue is right in general in what he has posted at the very beginning.What I have said about the beginning of Tao is exactly what I have stated. Li Erh Xian Shi, then put these perspectives down and it is known as the DDJ. Shamanism was the beginning of Tao: an observation of the natural world its interconnection and energies that all living and non-living things share. Following that path is the Tao. Describing it and living it is the difficult part. I know a lot about how Chinese think, how do you think I know??? I have learn't the Tao from my Masters: I do beleive there is no greater substitute!!

 

What it bothers are these two statements:

1. The Tao Te Ching is not a book of philosophy. It is only the western people who view it such.

 

2. The Tao Te Ching is a treatise of shamanism, simply this if you understand the original Chinese as I have been given.

[flowing hands]

What it bothers are these two statements:

1. The Tao Te Ching is not a book of philosophy. It is only the western people who view it such.

 

2. The Tao Te Ching is a treatise of shamanism, simply this if you understand the original Chinese as I have been given.

 

1 How can one describe what is real as a philosophy? You can touch the earth, breathe the air and know that there is spirit. Intellectuals look at the DDJ as an intellectual exercise in thought process. David Attenborough has spent his life filming the Tao, that is real not in the head!!!Chinese thought was very much surrounded by shamanistic society in these times, it was the first form of belief in China. Li Erh was part of that culture and society and would have written his text with this as part of his belief and thought.

 

2 What you have was transcribed a thousand times to what you have today. Many transcribers used shortened characters and sometimes put their own 'flourishes' into the text, or transcribed it wrong producing the wrong meaning. This is why I have been given the true words of Li Erh. If you understand the DDJ, you will see that it is exactly what I have said. If you only have a superficial understanding then that's all you will know.

[ChiDragon]

I see................

[Muqtada]

Just wanted to thank the OP for the argument--it's an interesting thought, that the same name can be used to refer to many different sub-groups. I believe this should be true in Chinese the same as English, and can be demonstrated in the ancient rise of Catholicism or the disparate Protestant groups that all fly under the flag of 'Christianity' as easily as it can describe Tao or Taoism. It is a common practice of BEING HUMAN to use one or two words to describe many different groups and it is a common practice of BEING HUMAN for many people in any religious or philosophical group to have many varying opinions on different topics regarding to their beliefs.

 

I'm sorry if this has already been said by someone else. Even on a topic as short as two pages, arguing semantics between 'westerners' and 'easterners' put me off and made me want to leave, but I wanted to give props to OP for the thought. The argument is clearly about a much larger context (although details on relative comparisons to the Eastern world are always helpful). It does not matter what the words are in Chinese if you can acknowledge that there are different sub-groups that fall under the same word. That's the point. I don't care if Tao is a Western construct because there are two words in China--to me, two words does not seem nearly enough to cover all the varying practices.

 

So my point is that I think it's an interesting thought, and I agree that our responsibly is to sample different practices to see what resonates with us personally to see which, if any, sub-group fits us best. Each sub-group is a different path to the same goal, and though there's only one or two that will work for me, I'm sure they will not be the same paths that work for you. Thus the many sub-divisions of Tao practice.

 

Anyway, once again I'm sorry if any of this has already been said, I didn't read probably half of the replies.

[Taomeow]

The point I am trying to make here is from my own limited experience and understanding there is no one single coherent thing or group of things that is Taoism.

 

A counterpoint I'm ready to make:

 

a systemic approach to reality rooted in the core insights of Chinese civilization -- hetu, luoshu, xiantian, houtian, qi, yin-yang, wuxing, bagua, ganying, xuan kong, I Ching --

is taoism.

 

Anyone who takes this approach to reality and all its aspects -- cosmology, psychology, biology, sociology, any other -ology, as well as to practices and empirical applications -- taiji, qigong, neigong, feng shui, TCM, art, relationships, sexual expression, divination, spiritual attitudes and personal interactions with spirits and energies of the world, magic, emotional and psychological and moral values and their expression in one's actual life, intellectual pursuits and paradigms resulting from reliance on the above concepts as primary tools of cognitive investigation --

is a taoist.

 

Confusion starts when folks jump on the bandwagon of "taoism" (or off it as promptly, failing to find a footing) from any which random place instead of boarding it at the station, i.e. starting from its birthright legacy. It's like trying to understand, e.g., a black woman by failing to notice, for starters, that she was not born a white man, has never been a little boy, will never grow a beard, can pass for a local in Burkina Faso but not in Iceland, has never peed standing up and has nothing to wear a condom on, but plenty to wear a bra on, and so on. You have to know what you're dealing with from the start -- or who -- because if you don't, you will find it all very confusing. Not just taoism. Anything and anyone. I mean a generic "you," not you personally.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal name

The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth

The named is the mother of myriad things

 

Thus, constantly free of desire

One observes its wonders

Constantly filled with desire

One observes its manifestations

 

These two emerge together but differ in name

The unity is said to be the mystery

Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

 

 

And thereby, the eternal debate continues........

[Marblehead]

And thereby, the eternal debate continues........

 

Yep. But then without the debates far fewer would attain a better understanding of Te.

 

That's what it is all about in my opinion. Define Tao? Yeah, right. But Te? Yes, we can talk about that and even gain a better understanding as long as we do not have our brain filled with our own delusioned thoughts.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Yep. But then without the debates far fewer would attain a better understanding of Te.

 

That's what it is all about in my opinion. Define Tao? Yeah, right. But Te? Yes, we can talk about that and even gain a better understanding as long as we do not have our brain filled with our own delusioned thoughts.

 

 

Agreed. Westernised intellectualising will be the death of us all, but feeling from heart and knowing from the mind, the heart/mind connection, might just get us there.

 

If that makes any sense at all !