Sameness

[deci belle]

[Marblehead]

 

There really is something to these teachings after all. Of course, I'm only describing emptiness in terms of sameness, living, aware, presence, inconceivable.

 

And then you have someone like me come along and claim that emptiness does not exist and this leaves fullness. Ah!, the beauty of the Manifest.

 

And yes, my chair is still supporting me.

[Ish]

I don't think emptiness really refers to that, just that all things don't have an independant permanent self.

You can only say that something exists because it is perceived by something, Schroedinger's cat and all that :-) .

[deci belle]

And then you have someone like me come along and claim that emptiness does not exist and this leaves fullness. Ah!, the beauty of the Manifest.

 

And yes, my chair is still supporting me.

 

Absolutely! It is empty of emptiness!! This is living awareness filling the void; no different than manifest potential. As for your chair~ it is as real as you are!! heehee!!❤

 

I don't think emptiness really refers to that, just that all things don't have an independant permanent self.

You can only say that something exists because it is perceived by something

 

I say that something exists because it is deluded within delusion but doesn't know it. Since awakened individuals know existence as delusion, they see that all things have no independent permanent self— and so aren't bound by karma. One is free to adapt to conditions by virtue of immediate acquiescence. This is not the way; it is the virtue of the way. One activates the mind that can match the living potential essence of creation. Creation is not real, but potential is complete reality. One picks the real out of the false and seals it away. One simply does not speculate in that which has no reality. Buddhists call this mutual response; taoists call this the virtue of the receptive. When arrow points meet, response is mutual; when one matches mind to potential, virtue is inexhaustible.

 

In witnessing the absolute, it is by virtue of non-existence of self. This is relativity taken to another level by seeing sameness of self/not self. Usually when one says self:other, we unconsciously think other things (usually other people)— but when we know sameness, self and other are cancelled and since nothing does not exist, the result is seeing suchness as is~ which is not empty. It is full, silent, on the brink in perpetuity.

 

"Other" is the same as impersonal awareness; immutable, never having origination. It's empty in that it is even absent of nothing. It is impersonal nonpsychological awareness, unborn and undying. This is spirit. Nothing is not this, therefore nothing has no reality. There is no such thing as nothing, yet spirit is essentially empty and nonpsychological awareness is essentially spirit. People insist on seeing the spiritual as some kind of thrilling amusement-park ride, something exciting and perceptible. It is not perceptible; it is awareness itself, miraculously awake, invisible, open, calm, inconceivability. It is possible to enter the realm of inconceivability.

 

When one first sees nonbeing being, one sees the absolute in terms of the absolute. This is witnessing beginningless Change. Those who know the Change of the primordial cycle then exist outside the created and are not subject to change. Subsequently, one uses selfless awareness to match potential in terms of created cycles alternating endlessly. This is entering the tao in reality which is the same as transforming endlessly along with changes without going along with conditions.

 

Emptiness is nonsense; it must be penetrated experientially to be employed spontaneously in ordinary situations unbeknownst to anyone. In transcending emptiness, one steps over eternity, shatters space, sublimates oneself physically and spiritual and enters the tao in reality.

 

(ed note: embellish penultimate paragraph)

Edited November 19, 2011 by deci belle

[Marblehead]

As for your chair~ it is as real as you are!! heehee!!❤

 

Yep, until we become something else.

 

I say that something exists because ...

 

That was a nice post. Caused my mind to re-label you. Hehehe. I had you labelled (in my mind) as an Alchemic Taoist but now I think a more appropriate label would be 'Religious Taoist with Buddhist leanings'.

 

(Of course, labels don't matter.)

[deci belle]

I had you (in my mind) as an Alchemic Taoist but now I think a more appropriate label would be 'Religious Taoist with Buddhist leanings'.

 

(Of course, labels don't matter.)

 

You were right the first time I think, but both teachings are complementary in terms of emphasis and vocabulary. In my practice, alchemy was essential in seeing the celestial design before; whereas Chan was instumental in applying the function afterward. This in turn helped clarify some of the ancient taoist terminology concerning yin convergence operations that enable me to absorb some of Dogen's work. …otherwise, I know nussing, mon ami!~ haha!!❤

 

(ed note: add "some of", in last line)

Edited November 20, 2011 by deci belle

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just knocking to say I enjoyed the read!

[Marblehead]

[deci belle]

As you wish, mon ami!❤

[davesdom]

Thich Nhat Hanh in Zen Keys spends many words elucidating that "emptiness" is not the concept of emptiness; it is the concept which needs disappear. Once there is no word and no concept, reality (or emptiness, enlightenment, etc.) is experienced without division: "The concept of emptiness . . . is the enemy of emptiness." We can all still sit in our chairs. We just think too much.

[C T]

[deci belle]

If you want to attain suchness, you should practice suchness without delay."

❤!!

[Brian]

Says he, the man Dogen, himself ( ) :

 

<snip>

...If you want to attain suchness, you should practice suchness without delay."

 

 

This quote inspired me to go practice!

[deci belle]

C T and A Seeker left this for edification and inspiration!

"You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words and following after speech, and learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly to illuminate yourself. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will be manifest. If you want to attain suchness, you should practice suchness without delay."

 

This discussion of sameness from start to finish is addressing enlightening activity after seeing essence; after dropping off dropping off. After one has turned the light around to illuminate the self and attain suchness, there is still practicing suchness. This is where Dogen really shines.

 

Having spoken almost exclusively of this for years now, it is not surprising to see that when describing advance practice, most people only want to conceive of before leading to noumenon, and have no idea of gradual practice after sudden realization— even though the bulk of what I have read of Dogen's work (or have read into his work) addresses enlightening activity after seeing one's original face.

 

To be sure— IT IS ONLY AFTERWARDS WHICH IS TO BE TERMED ENTRY-LEVEL. Before is a dream because you don't know it is. Afterward is a dream too, but you know it.

 

There are a few reasons for this lack of understanding— Obviously, the foremost would be having no idea what comes before, much less after— I only write about it because hardly anyone addresses the practical issues of enlightening being. I'm not being critical; I only offer the suggestion that one ponder the truth that nothing is gained by realization and that the point (before leading to after) is seamless simply because mind is one, not two. The realization is knowing there are no two minds— that there is no person nor has creation ever existed in perpetuity. One must still observe causelessness of the unmanifest as equal to causelessness of the manifest because this is the function of the tao. There is always that which is even beyond the tao. Who goes there?

 

Enlightening practice is none other than employing the power of realization to match creation in ordinary situations in order to respond decisively and precisely. This is becoming the tao in reality~ it is also expertise. This is not about acting! This is about making creation nonexistent without negating phenomena in everyday ordinary situations because its true and it works. There is no doing. It works. One must enter the mystery oneself; there are no shortcuts and there is nothing to understand.

 

The other main reason for not seeing the open secret plain as day before you, much less recognizing the ancients' description of its practical nature and inconceivable function is because it is mind. Therefore they (mundane and absolute) are not two. The same description suffices when talking about essence, function and substance.

 

From my perspective, the value of the path and its derivative lore is learning that awareness is all the magical, mysterious, inconceivable world we live in. I am only an explorer sharing hard-won experience.

 

Taoists steal potential and take over creation. I describe how to do it.

 

Stealing potential is only possible for those who see it. One takes over creation by not using it. This ain't no TTC bullshit, kids. Laotzu the wizard wasn't just wise— the wizard knew the secret of non-existence and endeavored to leave its traces in this world. The method is soft; its application is open. There is no person.

 

First it is necessary to drop off dropping off. Obviously, one must already have dropped off— hence the admonition for alchemists to first see essence, only then seek a teacher.

 

Mind you, before and after isn't the critical juncture! What is most important in practice at any level is the order. I only say this because some rush ahead while others lag behind, missing the timing and bringing on harm to themselves and others where none existed.

 

Knowing there is before and after; one yin and one yang equal change; make other the host and you be the guest, make the work possible and effective.

 

I would like to say there is a moral exigency to the path and for some who must make that the point of it all~ that's fine, but I don't.

 

See essence first. We ARE essence. When you see that~ what use is your own enlightenment?!! Don't worry about it at all! Enlightenment is useless. Enlightenment is seeing essence out of this world. But if you can see essence working in this world, you are already beyond entry-level enlightenment and the aftermath of dropping off dropping off and you already are in position to steal potential and take over creation in everyday ordinary situations unbeknownst to anyone.

 

The only way to work with essence is to see it. Seeing it only happens according to celestial timing. In order to see essence, on must first be ready. Being ready is made possible by refining one's self. That is why the classic taoist saying is "Refine yourself and await the time."

 

So it is not really necessary to be puffed up in your own little place of white-hot enlightenment~ on the contrary, the conceit of realization is to be dispensed with altogether. The Chan admonition is after you have washed off dirt with soap, rinse off the soap with water. Enlightenment is just as bad as delusion— that is why I talk about dropping off dropping off. Its also why the ancients say nothing is to be gained by enlightenment.

 

Practicing suchness isn't going off to practice something; doing something. Suchness is the open secret here before your eyes right now. There are no two suchnessess; Reality IS hidden in our midst, but it's not different …it's the same.

 

So when you hear "seek essence on your own, then seek a teacher", don't think you need complete perfect enlightenment. Seeing essence is seeing reality; only you know instantaneously for yourself. Your innate living awareness knows~ is the water cold or not? The meaning of seeking a teacher is (1), because your essential nature cannot be given by another nor can it be found outside of ones own body (which is inherently powerful) so it necessitates (2), employing wisdom so one shouldn't act on thoughts; one must resist the impulse to act. If you act, you turn potential into illusion (ei: not allowing it to naturally revert into nonpsychological awareness). You can't absorb illusion~ only potential. Buddhists call this "saving energy", So it is imperative not to act. The way to do that is to set up other as the host (ie: the teacher) and you be the guest (the student). One begins to see essence to the degree one is unwilling to use it. "Stealing potential" is code for dealing with phenomena without speculating on phenomena consciously, unconsciously or otherwise.

 

When other becomes the host, one uses the world to refine oneself; not indulge oneself. Using illumination as a guide, one does not use the mind to create illusion. When one becomes the guest, one can then rest by not acting, awaiting the direction of potential while taking advantage of self-refinement in the context of not acting as a strategy for absorbing the undifferentiated. This is attaining suchness by practicing suchness.

 

This set-up is created by you to hunt power. It's a trap. You don't know when and where the rabbit is going to pop up. No one is being fooled. You have the strategy and discipline is the means. This is the alchemy I practice. It is based on reality in reality as reality. Otherwise it is an illusion useless to all who have no mind for karmic shenanigans. There are those with the capacity to accomplish this process, that is all. I only write for those who want to hear this process. This is the same as the teaching of the Yin Convergence Classic.

 

How is this so different from "attaining suchness by practicing suchness without delay"?

 

This is neither false nor true. This is entry into the Inconceivable. Do you see essence or not? If you do then you can know stepping over eternity, stealing potential, taking over creation and make your abode under that tree in the homeland of nothing whatsoever.

 

Making this your abode, you turn the Dharma wheel without leaving your place, and it is the same wherever you stay or go.

 

ed note: acknowledge C T and A Seeker's contribution to this thread and also to parenthesize "before leading to after" in the fourth paragraph, added "without negating phenomena" in the fifth and embellished the biggest paragraph to my heart's desire~ haha!!❤

Edited July 21, 2012 by deci belle

[Jeff]

Thank you deci belle for this post. I see much wisdom in it. But, your words to describe dance around things. Can you give examples to help understand what you mean? Give a "feeling" for suchness?

 

[deci belle]

hi Jeff!

 

You would want a simple answer…❤ Have you ever felt lucky?

 

Feeling lucky is a tingling relationship with other. This is not a person.

 

It's not you. It's potential.

 

When you're feeling lucky, seal it away and forget about it.

 

Nothing will happen~ over and over and over.

 

That is an example of what it feels like and what to do with it.

 

After a long time, it becomes you as you respond to conditions.

 

 

 

ed note: typed six more lines

Edited July 21, 2012 by deci belle

[Jeff]

[deci belle]

Which is precisely why you do not do anything with it.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Recently I've been looking at Suchness in terms of, for example, you see a beautiful woman but don't want to desire her so you just see her as a woman rather than a beautiful woman, not attaching any "imaginings" in tow.

 

It's a fairly simple side of Suchness, but very real at the same time, I think. We see things as a means to this, or means to that, symbols of this, maybe this maybe that, and imagine so many things about them good and/or bad but not just seeing them "as such."

 

Of course this goes beyond people, and things to days, money, etc..

 

I don't know to what degree this needs to be everything all the time in the laymen world, but I think it is still useful as an intro

[deci belle]

[deci belle]

Danged double postage!! heehee!!

Edited July 22, 2012 by deci belle

[Jeff]

Is suchness the same as being fully present in the moment? When one "desires" that beautiful woman, is one "thinking" about being with her in the future?

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Is suchness the same as being fully present in the moment? When one "desires" that beautiful woman, is one "thinking" about being with her in the future?

 

 

I guess it really depends on how deeply you want to get into it. It's interesting that Mind and Heart were seen as the same thing. So a clear and tranquil mind was maybe more about a clear and tranquil heart. There are thoughts in the mind and thoughts in the heart, but I think they begin with the heart. So clear your heart = clear your mind.

 

I think if we view beauty with clear heart then we are seeing it "as it is."

[deci belle]

I'm into it deeply, hehe!!❤

 

Is suchness the same as being fully present in the moment? When one "desires" that beautiful woman, is one "thinking" about being with her in the future?

 

 

The question is suchness; doubt is the fecundity of suchness. "Is suchness the same as…" Suchness IS. There is no distinction to construe. Fuse self/other by eliminating the distinctions creating the illusions of separation. It won't change anything but you (in secret). Why? So you can go along with changes without following creation. Why? The ability to act without acting frees one from karmic awarenesses and stultifying evolutions.

 

Suchness IS complete reality now: moment, self, other, full, empty, presence, absence. Not you as opposed to this or that, picking and choosing. Presence makes no distinction. It doesn't happen to you. You aren't in it. Sameness has no inside , ouside, being, nonbeing. You are not outside this. Everyone is all this all the time. Sentient beings each have their own complete, perfect universe. Fusing the dichotomy is what alchemy is without a thought.

 

I feel like I AM with him/her in the moment of desiring. Sex is the thing. Sex requires duality. What isn't duality? People make the mistake of thinking sex is only a certain thing. Making sex everything, have sex continuously~ no one will know. Whenever I say "no one", it also means awareness is impersonal. I have said this is other as well, but it is also the same as "no one". No one knows. When you see your original face, no one will know. Culling the elixir grain by grain is no one knowing. Every time no one knows is practicing suchness. What knows here is not a person; it is not a matter of thinking. It's like digesting food; you don't have to think about it. No one knows the doing of the refinement of the elixir. Do you understand my words, Jeff? As if one can say this without dancing around it.

 

THIS IS UNSPEAKABILITY.

 

Do forget about past and future. There is only other (not the object). When you see through objects, situations, thoughts, these turn into potential. Other is the impersonal awareness whether it occurs in the mundane or absolute— there are no two awarenessess. If you want to know suchness, you simply work with it directly. It takes both of you to feel lucky, it's not just you feeling— the feeling is the knowledge itself without a thought. So though flushing it out requires sex, it isn't sex. You use sex. You use the mundane to find the real. There is nothing else to work with.

 

It's all suchness if it's not about things. It's about awareness— this is what is alive right now. Awareness is the living aware energy, unborn and undying. It's what you take for your own mind knowing right now. You are just as much an illusion in your own skin-bag as that object you are discriminating. One suchness; one illusion. Practicing suchness IS selfless. Selflessness is not a warm, fuzzy moral imperative. This is beyond good and evil. Use impersonal awareness to suspend the time without entertaining separateness. Desiring is the moment of the tingling without speculation in phenomena. Again, as you say, this is murky~ so this is presence within potential; the alchemic term is unrefined elixir. You know this time. Not speculating in phenomena, You snatch this bit of vitality and store it in silence.

 

Ordinary ignoramuses use awareness to create illusion. Enlightening beings pick the real out of the false and store it away in silence. Grain by grain, you cull the elixir.

 

 

 

 

ed note… add first sentence, hehe.

Edited July 22, 2012 by deci belle

[Jeff]

I guess it really depends on how deeply you want to get into it. It's interesting that Mind and Heart were seen as the same thing. So a clear and tranquil mind was maybe more about a clear and tranquil heart. There are thoughts in the mind and thoughts in the heart, but I think they begin with the heart. So clear your heart = clear your mind.

 

I think if we view beauty with clear heart then we are seeing it "as it is."

 

The meaning of terms like heart and mind depend on the culture and tradition. Sometimes they mean the same, more often they do not. Most often one quiets (or ignores ) the thoughts of the mind to "feel" with the heart. If one is engaged (giving energy to) a thought, can one experience "suchness"?