Chuang Tzu Chapter 4, Section F

[Marblehead]

Section F

 

Nan-bo Zi-Qi in rambling about the Heights of Shang, saw a large and extraordinary tree. The teams of a thousand chariots might be sheltered under it, and its shade would cover them all! Zi-Qi said, 'What a tree is this! It must contain an extraordinary amount of timber! When he looked up, however, at its smaller branches, they were so twisted and crooked that they could not be made into rafters and beams; when he looked down to its root, its stem was divided into so many rounded portions that neither coffin nor shell could be made from them. He licked one of its leaves, and his mouth felt torn and wounded. The smell of it would make a man frantic, as if intoxicated, for more than three whole days together. 'This, indeed,' said he, 'is a tree good for nothing, and it is thus that it has attained to such a size. Ah! and spirit-like men acknowledge this worthlessness (and its result).'

 

In Song there is the district of Jing-shi, in which catalpae, cypresses, and mulberry trees grow well. Those of them which are a span or two or rather more in circumference are cut down by persons who want to make posts to which to tie their monkeys; those which are three or four spans round are cut down by persons who want beams forr their lofty and famous houses; and those of seven or eight spans are cut down by noblemen and rich merchants who want single planks for the sides of their coffins. The trees in consequence do not complete their natural term of life, and come to a premature end in the middle of their growth under the axe and bill;-- this is the evil that befalls them from their supplying good timber.

 

In the same way the Jie (book) specifies oxen that have white foreheads, pigs that have turned-up snouts, and men that are suffering from piles, and forbids their being sacrificed to the Ho. The wizards know them by these peculiarities and consider them to be inauspicious, but spirit-like men consider them on this account to be very fortunate.

 

There was the deformed object Shu. His chin seemed to hide his navel; his shoulders were higher than the crown of his head; the knot of his hair pointed to the sky; his five viscera were all compressed into the upper part of his body, and his two thigh bones were like ribs. By sharpening needles and washing clothes he was able to make a living. By sifting rice and cleaning it, he was able to support ten individuals. When the government was calling out soldiers, this poor Shu would bare his arms among the others; when it had any great service to be undertaken, because of his constant ailments, none of the work was assigned to him; when it was giving out grain to the sick, he received three kung, and ten bundles of firewood. If this poor man, so deformed in body, was still able to support himself, and complete his term of life, how much more may they do so, whose deformity is that of their faculties!

 

When Confucius went to Chu, Jie-yu, the madman of Chu, as he was wandering about, passed by his door, and said, '0 Phoenix, 0 Phoenix, how is your virtue degenerated! The future is not to be waited for; the past is not to be sought again! When good order prevails in the world, the sage tries to accomplish all his service; when disorder prevails, he may preserve his life; at the present time, it is enough if he simply escape being punished. Happiness is lighter than a feather, but no one knows how to support it; calamity is heavier than the earth, and yet no one knows how to avoid it. Give over! give over approaching men with the lessons of your virtue! You are in peril! you are in peril, hurrying on where you have marked out the ground against your advance! I avoid publicity, I avoid publicity, that my path may not be injured. I pursue my course, now going backwards, now crookedly, that my feet may not be hurt.

 

The mountain by its trees weakens itself. The grease which ministers to the fire fries itself. The cinnamon tree can be eaten, and therefore it is cut down. The varnish tree is useful, and therefore incisions are made in it. All men know the advantage of being useful, but no one knows the advantage of being useless.

[konchog uma]

from Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales and Parables"

 

Sir Motley of Southunc made an excursion to the Hillock of

Shang. There he saw an unusual tree so big that a thousand four-

horse chariots could be shaded by its leaves.

"Goodness! What tree is this?" asked Sir Motley. "It must

have unusual timber" Looking upward at the smaller branches,

however, he saw that they were all twisted and unfit to be beams .

Looking downward at the massive trunk, he saw that it was so

gnarled as to be unfit for making coffins. If you lick one of its

leaves, your mouth will develop ulcerous sores. If you smell its

foliage, you fall into a drunken delirium that lasts for three days.

"This tree is truly worthless," said Sir Motley," and that is

why it has grown so large. Ah! The spiritual man is also worth-

less like this."

 

In the state of Sung, there is a place called Chingshih where

catalpas, arborvitae, and mulberry trees thrive. Those that are

more than a hand's breadth or two around are chopped down by

people who are looking for tether posts for their monkeys.

Those that are three or four spans in circumference are chopped

down by people who are looking for lofty ridgepoles. Those that

are seven or eight spans in circumference are chopped down by

the families of aristocrats or wealthy merchants who are looking

for coffin planks. Therefore, they do not live out the years

allotted to them by heaven but die midway under the ax. This is

the trouble brought about by having worth. Conversely, in carry-

ing out an exorcistic sacrifice, one cannot present oxen with

white foreheads, suckling pigs with upturned snouts, or people

with hemorrhoids to the god of the river. All of this is known by

the magus-priests, who consider these creatures to be inauspi-

cious. For the same reasons, the spiritual person considers them

to be greatly auspicious.

 

Scattered Apart's chin was buried in his bellybutton, his shoul-

ders were higher than the crown of his head, his cervical ver-

tebrae pointed toward the sky, the five dorsal inductories were all

up on top, and his thighbones were positioned like a couple of

extra ribs. By sewing and washing clothes, he earned enough to

make ends meet. By sifting grain with a winnowing-fan, he could

make enough to feed ten people. When the authorities came to

conscript soldiers, Scattered would wander about among them

flailing his arms. When the authorities organized a massive labor

project, Scattered would be excused because of his congenital

defects. When the authorities handed out grain to the sick, he

would receive three bags plus ten bundles of firewood. Though

his body was scattered, it was sufficient to enable him to support

himself and to live out the years allotted to him by heaven. How

much more could someone whose virtue is scattered!

 

When Confucius went to Ch'u, Chieh Yii, the madman of Ch'u ,

wandered about before his gate, saying

 

"Phoenix! Oh, Phoenix!

How your virtue has declined

!The future you cannot wait for,

The past you cannot pursue.

When the Way prevails under heaven,

The Sage seeks for accomplishment

;When the Way is absent from the world,

The sage seeks but to preserve his life.

In an age like that of today,

All he can hope for is to avoid punishment.

Good fortune is lighter than a feather ,

But no one knows how to carry it;

Misfortune is heavier than the earth,

But no one knows how to escape it.

Enough! Enough!

Stop confronting people with virtue

Perilous! Perilous!

All this rushing about dividing up the earth.

Thorny dimwit,

Don't wound my shins!

Prickly scatterbrain,

Don't wound my feet!"

 

The mountain trees plunder themselves, the grease over a fire

fries itself. Cinnamon can be eaten, therefore the trees that yield

it are chopped down. Varnish can be used, therefore the trees

that produce it are hacked . Everybody knows the utility of

usefulness, but nobody knows the utility of uselessness .

[Marblehead]

"This tree is truly worthless," said Sir Motley, "and that is why it has grown so large. Ah! The spiritual man is also worth- less like this."

 

And so too all men and women who give no one a reason to cut them down or use them up.

[konchog uma]

"This tree is truly worthless," said Sir Motley, "and that is why it has grown so large. Ah! The spiritual man is also worth- less like this."

 

And so too all men and women who give no one a reason to cut them down or use them up.

 

that one seems weird because its a retelling of the chapter immediately previous. Maybe it seemed a point worth making twice.

 

I like the story about Scattered Apart. Its hard to understand what the author means when he says "how much more would one whose virtue is scattered" but i don't think he means virtue in the sense of natural virtue, i think he means social virtue or "confucian" virtue. Just my take on it, i could be wrong.

Edited November 19, 2011 by anamatva

[Marblehead]

that one seems weird because its a retelling of the chapter immediately previous. Maybe it seemed a point worth making twice.

 

I like the story about Scattered Apart. Its hard to understand what the author means when he says "how much more would one whose virtue is scattered" but i don't think he means virtue in the sense of natural virtue, i think he means social virtue or "confucian" virtue. Just my take on it, i could be wrong.

 

Yes, I think it was worth retelling. The concept really is difficult to grasp (uselessness).

 

Yep, Scattered Apart was useful to hisself because he was useless to the government and in this way he ended up being useful to others close around him. Almost an irony.

 

Yes, Chuang Tzu never hesitated to criticize Confucian virtue whenever he had the opportunity. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

Therefore, they do not live out the years

allotted to them by heaven but die midway under the ax. This is

the trouble brought about by having worth. Conversely, in carry-

ing out an exorcistic sacrifice, one cannot present oxen with

white foreheads, suckling pigs with upturned snouts, or people

with hemorrhoids to the god of the river. All of this is known by

the magus-priests, who consider these creatures to be inauspi-

cious. For the same reasons, the spiritual person considers them

to be greatly auspicious.

 

Why does the spiritual person considers them to be greatly auspicious...??? Anyone.....???

[konchog uma]

Why does the spiritual person considers them to be greatly auspicious...??? Anyone.....???

 

because the rest of creation doesn't clamor to exploit them

[konchog uma]

i like that the magus-priest is contrasted to the spiritual person.

[ChiDragon]

because the rest of creation doesn't clamor to exploit them

 

What make you think so...???

The other creation still can eaten them for foods.

 

Can you narrow it down to one possibility why they are considered to be auspicious....???

[konchog uma]

What make you think so...???

The other creation still can eaten them for foods.

 

Can you narrow it down to one possibility why they are considered to be auspicious....???

 

chuang tzu devotes section after section to talking about why perceived uselessness has its virtue and advantages, thats what makes me think so.

 

as to being eaten for food, i didn't say that it was a free ride, i said that i can see master chuang's take on it, that those creatures are auspicious because they aren't exploited.

 

why would i say one possibility again? I have said it, and repeated it right there, they aren't exploited.

 

i suggest re-reading master chuang, he is a master and i am not. Maybe sleep on it and come back to it in a while and see if you can see how that part you quoted ties in with the couple of chapters about uselessness and its virtue. I can't really explain it now cause i'm tired. Its past my bedtime and i'm still on the interwebs... If tomorrow or in a couple days we're still talking about it, maybe i can be more help

[ChiDragon]

"Therefore, they do not live out the years

allotted to them by heaven but die midway under the ax. This is

the trouble brought about by having worth. Conversely, in carry-

ing out an exorcistic sacrifice, one cannot present oxen with

white foreheads, suckling pigs with upturned snouts, or people

with hemorrhoids to the god of the river. All of this is known by

the magus-priests, who consider these creatures to be inauspi-

cious. For the same reasons, the spiritual person considers them

to be greatly auspicious."

 

Why does the spiritual person considers them to be greatly auspicious...??? Anyone.....???

 

What ZhuangTze was really saying here? Isn't he suggesting that all normal beings are subject to die sooner than their life expectancy; and those who are abnormal lived through their lifespan....???

 

The oxen with white foreheads, suckling pigs with upturned snouts, or people with hemorrhoids are disqualified for the sacrificial offering to the god of the river. So, what ZZ was saying is that those who are better off with retardation or handicap. They are auspicious because they are exempted from what harm might come to them. Hence, they will live longer than those who are normal.

 

Personal note:

After study few chapters of ZZ, I have realized that ZZ likes to use life subjects and different situations in comparison wihtin his philosophy while LaoTze likes to use objects for his comparisons most of the time. e.g. space vs non-space, and softness vs hardness.

[Marblehead]

Personal note:

After study few chapters of ZZ, I have realized that ZZ likes to use life subjects and different situations in comparison wihtin his philosophy ...

 

This is true and we will see it time and time again.

 

Ah!, the utility of uselessness! What a concept.

[Rara]

The whole of this chapter is just brilliant. But especially this tale...

 

It really stuck a chord with me...as sometimes I always felt that I was used and abused a bit for being useful. A bit of a performing seal, so to speak.

 

So if I ever want to evade something in future, I had better appear useless hehe. Great life alchemy stuff is this!

[Stosh]

My alternative read is that the traits of some things were arbitrarily praised or reviled . Such ideas may not be based on the real value of the trait. Nonconformity can be of advantage to the individual though it may disadvantage others in society..in that the nonconforming are more difficult to exploit. Society may still be advantaged by this very same variety. For instance the tree provides a shade that would otherwise wouldn't be there. Merit based on natural expediency vs arbitrarry prejudice. Anything might be useful , uselessness is not to be had. Assignatiions of merit is flawed , if merit is dependent on circumstance. Good is societally judged and does not apply to the situation of a sole individual. Individuals do not need morality.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm gald you agreed that it is a shade tree.

 

If merit is given to a person by others this also means that merit can be taken away and even denied by others.

 

To be beyond merit and blame is better, I think.

[Stosh]

You only agree its a shade tree !

oh well