Enlightenment Trigger Switch

[ATMA]

In many stories about sages enlightenment dawns on them suddenly, like a rushing.

Is this actually part of any teaching? Is enlightenment attainable in full suddenly given the proper switch?

Or is it more a way of life? Is someone living by the way (no longer concerned with reaching the end goal of enlight) enligtened?

 

Who is more enlightened?

 

If enlightenment is located within why can't you access it?

 

Can it be triggered by someone who isn't enlightened or does it require a master?

 

Do you wish you were enlightened? Is this a natural desire?

 

IfF you became enlightened would you still post up on taobums.com?

 

The goal without goals must be entered. Those fences are circling you quicker then ever.

[Protector]

I wonder what my signature says

[raimonio]

Hi

These are good questions. When I first began interested in buddhism about 7 years ago the first thing I did was that I became obsessed with the thought of enlightenment and because of this obsession I read numerous amounts of books written about enlightenment, watched a ton of videos done by enlightened people talking about their enlightenment. In the east enlightenment is seen as some mystical occurance and the teachers also try to remain a mystery. It is not like that in the west. When a western guy becomes enlightened he talks about it freely cuz that's what we do here in the west, we discuss about our emotions and experiences freely and analyze them and it seems to be the case even when it comes to enlightenment (which cannot be analyzed).

 

Although asking these kinds of questions wont get you enlightened it is fun to play with thoughts and theories. I also believe that a good understanding of the theory somehow helps you on your journey to the place beyond it so I will now try to answer these questions based on my literal knowledge.

 

The moment of enlightenment:

I've read alot of journals and stories about people becoming enlightened and it has always been a single moment of occurance. All the teachers and enlightened people I've heard speak have said that it is possible to "gradually" be enlightened by excessive training in meditation but I've yet to come a cross such a story. There is a scientist who has done scientific research on with the brains of enlightened people and he also says that enlightenment can happen gradually. (

<- thats the guy, he seems like a trutful guy who does actual science but ofcourse you can never be sure)

 

Who is more enlightened?

After reading and hearing tons of information about enlightenment and forming a solid picture about it in my head and viewing that picture from all the angles I believe that someone being more enlightened than the other englightened guy is impossible, atleast in the theoretical realm I mean after your ego is gone and you experience every moment as it is, I dont think you can be anything else after that and in that sense all the enlightened guys are the same, they are just viewing the situation from their angle.

 

 

If enlightenment is located within why can't you access it?

Because you try to. The moment you try to be enlightened you become un-enlightened. And because you feel like you are not enlightened you always want to be enlightened so you try to become enlightened but that only results in you going "omg im not enlightened because i thought of enlightenment and enlightenment isnt a thought". Then you start from square one. So enlightenment is more like you coming aware of the fact that you actually are already enlightened but you just havent realized it yet. And you need to be able to let go everything in order to realize it. You cant realize it unless you are willing to let go of your thoughts forever and live in a state of not knowing whether you are enlightened or not. Your mind can't live in a state of not knowing and that is its problem.

 

 

Can it be triggered by someone who isn't enlightened or does it require a master?

You know this is something I have been trying to figure out since day one and it bogs my mind still. I have no idea but in theory it is possible. I mean buddha became enlightened without an enlightened master right? Out of principle I would argue that it is possible or else the whole theory is fundamentally wrong. I mean if it isn't possible how was it possible for the first guy? Ofcourse the chances go down without a teacher but it still has to be possible.

 

Do you wish you were enlightened? Is this a natural desire?

I do. Although after the initial obsession with it I sort of forgot and went on with my life. I'm doing spiritual practice but somehow I think that I wanna go the easy way and gain some little things like peace, serenity and understanding of myself before "going for it" again. I mean sure I'm "going for it" everytime I do my practice but I don't know, I just dont believe it will happen the next minute anymore And yes I do understand how crazy this is, thinking about whether it will happen or not I mean ofcourse it won't happen if this is my stance

 

 

IfF you became enlightened would you still post up on taobums.com?

Well this is my third post or something but sure. I think it would be fun to engage with the "less informed" While knowing that there is actually nothing to know, it would be an absurd situation and I like absurd situations.

 

Again this kind of discussion is pointless in the case of enlightenment because enlightenment is beyond discussions. But I think its fun to have these kinds of discussions and I believe that I would have them even if I was enlightened.

Edited November 21, 2011 by raimonio

[konchog uma]

In many stories about sages enlightenment dawns on them suddenly, like a rushing.

Is this actually part of any teaching? Is enlightenment attainable in full suddenly given the proper switch?

Or is it more a way of life? Is someone living by the way (no longer concerned with reaching the end goal of enlight) enligtened?

 

Who is more enlightened?

 

If enlightenment is located within why can't you access it?

 

Can it be triggered by someone who isn't enlightened or does it require a master?

 

Do you wish you were enlightened? Is this a natural desire?

 

IfF you became enlightened would you still post up on taobums.com?

 

The goal without goals must be entered. Those fences are circling you quicker then ever.

 

some people build up potential until it flips like a switch, and some people become removed of their mental and energetic burdens gradually. It largely depends on the practices they are engaging in and the nature of their individuality. In rough terms, buddhist breathing and sitting seems to facilitate more often the sudden enlightenment, while daoist practices seem more gradual. Those are very rough terms tho, don't take them too seriously.

 

enlightenment as a concept is nebulous and strange to talk about. Its more a buddhist concept than a daoist one, but i think there is an actual reality to it, although it does not have a location in spacetime. (everywhere! hahahha) I think that the nature of the mind is freedom, and the nature of reality is infinite. So our minds, in reality, should be infinitely free, but there is conditioning of an experiential, a social, and a familial nature which limits us in our capacity to actually experience limitless freedom, and the bliss that accompanies it. So by practices that remove the conditioning from our psyches, and the memories from our energy bodies, we can become closer to the state of freedom that is the experience of our "true selves" or our limitless selves, one with everything so the cliche goes. In short, thats enlightenment with a capital E. But there are many small enlightenments for some, again a gradual process, so thats enlightenment with a small e. I try to have 8 or more enlightenments per day! But thats just me. I don't put a lot of stock in the big Enlightenment since if i ever earn it, it will probably be another very gradual shift from "nearly almost enlightened" to "actually enlightened" not some earth-shattering leap from "duh" to "whoa".

 

enlightenment can be triggered by anything, a rock on the street, a banana peel, a wise master, someone else who is enlightened. In vajrayana, and i think most buddhism, enlightenment is the natural state of everything. There is just artifice which prevents us from seeing it. So like the meaning of "namaste" which i have seen translated as "the light in me bows to the light in you" or in other words "i honor your buddha nature" which is inherent. So the chair you are sitting on possesses the buddha-nature, and contemplation of that truth can cause you enlightenment. It might even cause you Enlightenment! who knows

 

i think it is a natural desire for people to want to be free. Enlightenment is a more fettered concept than freedom, but in essence, if you strip away the artifice, they are the same. So yes i think all beings want to exist in a blissful state of limitless freedom, there are just limitations and restrictions to being able to. Biologically it boils down to pleasure/pain i think. Freedom is pleasurable (bliss) while restriction is painful and annoying.

 

as to whether i would post on taobums, thats speculation. I have dropped so much of my life by the side of the road, parts of it i could not imagine living without. If i dropped taobums it would just be another thing i dropped. But i don't believe in the ideal of enlightenment as somehow separate from mundane reality. In other words, they are One And The Same, so while a person is overwhelmed by samsara there is longing for nirvana so they want enlightenment but when they get it they realize that things are inevitably cyclical, there is always duality, but now life is like a passing charade that they watch, they do not get caught up in it and stuck to it in overwhelming and draining ways. So it can amuse them and bring them benefit and lessons (buddha nature) instead of burdening them like it used to because they are not Attached to it. With that in mind, i think that i would happily post on daobums when i receive my final enlightenment because i see no point in attaining the highest spiritual state and then refusing to help others. WTF is that nonsense.. that is the essence of selfishness, and not the expression of compassion or virtue at all. There is no enlightenment outside of the dust of the world. We just shift our perspective from resenting the dust to becoming like the birds who take baths in it. That isn't to say that enlightened people wallow in the world's miseries, but to say that they see the usefulness in situations, things, and people, because their perception is not fettered by the conditioned mind and the illusions of the lower self.

 

The goalless goal is already achieved in your heart. Stop focusing on the fence and realize your inner nature.

Then you will realize that there are countless ways over, around, under, and through the fences that you encounter. Most of them are generated and sustained by the mind itself, and those that aren't are attracted to the mind by its resonance and nature.

 

Polish the mirror. Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

 

Many daoists don't even address enlightenment, or address it differently. I framed this post in the terminology of buddhism because enlightenment is (roughly speaking again) to buddhism what immortality is to daoism.

[deci belle]

[dwai]

In many stories about sages enlightenment dawns on them suddenly, like a rushing.

Is this actually part of any teaching? Is enlightenment attainable in full suddenly given the proper switch?

Or is it more a way of life? Is someone living by the way (no longer concerned with reaching the end goal of enlight) enligtened?

 

Who is more enlightened?

 

If enlightenment is located within why can't you access it?

 

Can it be triggered by someone who isn't enlightened or does it require a master?

 

Do you wish you were enlightened? Is this a natural desire?

 

IfF you became enlightened would you still post up on taobums.com?

 

The goal without goals must be entered. Those fences are circling you quicker then ever.

 

imho, enlightenment is the dawning of direct intuitive understanding, in spite of the rational faculties. It is the realization that you know something (whatever that thing might be) without having to prop up a mental dialog to support that realization.

 

I think that's why "Eastern Masters" don't try to explain Enlightenment...because it is pointless to explain it. It has to experienced and then you know. It's like being in the dark and then suddenly there is light. But there is no light switch, no electricity, no bulb, etc (if you get the drift of where I'm going with this). It is mystical because it is mysterious (in that no amount of rational inquiry or investigation will lead you closer to understanding than the understanding by itself can).

 

And like someone else pointed out, it can happen in small jumps or one giant leap. Depends on your constitution (ie psycho-spiritual characteristics).

 

 

[Patrick Brown]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Again, these are the questions pretty much every seeker has to ask at some point.

 

I really think it depends on who you ask as to whether Enlightenment is gradual, a path and process, or sudden. Dogen, who is sort of the beginning of Japanese Zen, says that zazen meditation IS Enlightenment. The difference between between anyone who can meditate reasonably well and someone who is Awakened is that the Awakened person has had some insight that allows them to kind of say "whatever.." to anything that would keep them from their Buddha Mind which we can all realize.

 

Most people get in a tricky situation and they say "oh damn, what am I going to do" whereas a Realized person might say "well, if I actually took all this personally I might be bothered. Fortunately I know that the 'receiver' of that circumstance is but a fabrication of mind-system, so I'll do what I can to relieve the suffering of those who haven't realized that and are now suffering the effects of the great delusion."

 

So now, the Awakened person does not slip on their Ego, so by some standards they are Enlightened. By other standards, they might get blinded by the fog and forget this truth, so they are not in fact Awakened but on some such rung of the ladder to being Awakened since they still get confused by the fog in the mirror.

 

So some people have less fog in the mirror than others, but they can all see their face in the mirror. I don't really care for an opinion on all of that either way.

 

"Can it be triggered by someone how isn't Enlightened?"

Yes, by one's own effort to see through the fog in the "mirror"

 

"Do you wish to be Enlightened?"

This is like a trick question, but yes

 

"would you still post"

I don't see why not. Life is life at the corner store as it is here, but the store keeper probably doesn't know what dependent origination is...

 

"Those fences are circling you quicker than ever"

Do they do mirrors?

 

 

In many stories about sages enlightenment dawns on them suddenly, like a rushing.

Is this actually part of any teaching? Is enlightenment attainable in full suddenly given the proper switch?

Or is it more a way of life? Is someone living by the way (no longer concerned with reaching the end goal of enlight) enligtened?

 

Who is more enlightened?

 

If enlightenment is located within why can't you access it?

 

Can it be triggered by someone who isn't enlightened or does it require a master?

 

Do you wish you were enlightened? Is this a natural desire?

 

IfF you became enlightened would you still post up on taobums.com?

 

The goal without goals must be entered. Those fences are circling you quicker then ever.

[C T]

5 min video on 'what is enlightenment?' without the attached ISMs...

 

[Patrick Brown]

Good video CT. I especially like the point about enlightenment not being anything to do with happiness, contentment etc. But what of Nirvana? Well the way I see it enlightenment allows one to experience nirvanic bliss. Nirvana is often said to be "being which is non being" it's when the ego becomes subordinate to the consciousness of the individual.

 

Seventeen:

The very highest if barely known.

Then comes that which people know and love.

Then that which is feared,

Then that which is despised.

Who does not trust enough will not be trusted.

 

When actions are performed

Without unnecessary speech,

People say, "We did it!"

[Aetherous]

In many stories about sages enlightenment dawns on them suddenly, like a rushing.

Is this actually part of any teaching? Is enlightenment attainable in full suddenly given the proper switch?

 

This is possible, and happened to me years ago. Funny how you describe it as a 'rushing' because that's exactly what it's like.

 

If you have an intense desire for enlightenment, even at the cost of your own life, make a vow that you won't move a single muscle (except to breathe and swallow your spit) until you're enlightened. It's best to lay down so you can be partially relaxed instead of trying to hold yourself upright and wear yourself out. Stay fully aware of your body every moment so that you don't unconsciously move. When feelings come, let them go and stick to your vow no matter WHAT...for however long it takes until you attain enlightenment.

 

That's it. I call it "death yoga". For sudden awakening through the process of surrendering. It was the most powerful thing I've ever experienced to this day. If you practice it and stop before you attain enlightenment, you didn't even do the practice, and you broke the most important vow you ever made to yourself (so this is only for those who are absolutely ready).

 

IfF you became enlightened would you still post up on taobums.com?

 

Of course.

[Aetherous]

C T, no offense but Men of the Infinite are stupid as hell. They confuse Buddhist enlightenment with the enlightenment notions of the 18th century, and disqualify a bunch of legitimate types of enlightenment.

 

One of the most true things I've ever heard is, "there are many types of enlightenment."

[Patrick Brown]

C T, no offense but Men of the Infinite are stupid as hell. They confuse Buddhist enlightenment with the enlightenment notions of the 18th century, and disqualify a bunch of legitimate types of enlightenment.

 

One of the most true things I've ever heard is, "there are many types of enlightenment."

 

Oh my!

 

 

Scotty, whereas there are many different types of mystical experience and many different states of consciousness none of them are enlightenment. The master would say where is your experience now? As for states of consciousness people can choose to stay on a certain plane but isn't that just egotism?

 

There seems to be far too many threads/topics here of late dwelling on enlightenment. All these threads are just muddying the waters. Enlightenment is very simple and could even be said to be a joke hence the many stories of people bursting into laughter once they realise what it really is. Anything that's spooky or mysterious is not enlightenment.

 

"Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know."

 

So there is something to know!

 

And it's very simple.

[Ish]

I believe most people can attain Arahatship within one lifetime with extensive practice of Vipassana and concentration under a master.

Full Buddhahood however... maybe not.

[Informer]

Are you talking about like this? :

 

When the nun Chiyono studied Zen under Bukko of Engaku she was unable to attain the fruits of meditation for a long time.

 

At last one moonlit night she was carrying water in an old pail bound with bamboo. The bamboo broke and the bottom fell out of the pail, and at that moment Chiyono was set free!

 

In commemoration, she wrote a poem:

 

In this way and that I tried to save the old pail

Since the bamboo strip was weakening and about

to break

Until at last the bottom fell out.

No more water in the pail!

No more moon in the water!

 

http://www.ashidakim...aternomoon.html

 

I see a semantical issue that involves the word enlightened vs awakened.

 

In the above poem, it is a description of that moment that brought the realization of awakening. I don't think it is really a trigger, but a train of thought that points to the illusory self. A progressive train of thought that climaxes at the conclusion to reveal the true nature of you.

 

That nature that exists even before thought finally becomes unbound and free to move throught the energy body for the very first time. Although it is hardly mastery of that, hence the semantical difference afore mentioned.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Informer

[Aetherous]

Oh my!

 

 

Scotty, whereas there are many different types of mystical experience and many different states of consciousness none of them are enlightenment. The master would say where is your experience now? As for states of consciousness people can choose to stay on a certain plane but isn't that just egotism?

 

You are referring to Buddhist enlightenment. What you're saying may or may not be correct regarding it.

 

That is one definition. If you look the word up in a dictionary, you will find a few others...and this is not the extent of it.

 

Different types of enlightenment can be discovered through direct experience, and these are not to be confused with one another (doing so "muddies the waters" as you say)...but in some cases they overlap.

 

I am only interested in people's direct experience, and not at all interested in intellectual debate...so this is probably all that I'll say. Please don't misinterpret or assume things about what I've said...consider that I haven't even touched on the discussion of Buddhist enlightenment in what I said.

[Simple_Jack]

C T, no offense but Men of the Infinite are stupid as hell. They confuse Buddhist enlightenment with the enlightenment notions of the 18th century, and disqualify a bunch of legitimate types of enlightenment.

 

One of the most true things I've ever heard is, "there are many types of enlightenment."

One of the most true things I've ever heard is, "there are many types of enlightenment."

 

This is ignorance stemming from dualistic and inherent views.

[Simple_Jack]

You are referring to Buddhist enlightenment. What you're saying may or may not be correct regarding it.

 

That is one definition. If you look the word up in a dictionary, you will find a few others...and this is not the extent of it.

 

Different types of enlightenment can be discovered through direct experience, and these are not to be confused with one another (doing so "muddies the waters" as you say)...but in some cases they overlap.

 

I am only interested in people's direct experience, and not at all interested in intellectual debate...so this is probably all that I'll say. Please don't misinterpret or assume things about what I've said...consider that I haven't even touched on the discussion of Buddhist enlightenment in what I said.

What constitutes "Taoist" enlightenment?

 

I want to ask: What is it, you are looking for?

[Aetherous]

Like I said, I'm not at all interested in intellectual debate. Especially when it starts with being told I'm ignorant.