Closed Door Krapola?

[Baguakid]

I often read of people posting "I'm a closed door student of this master", and "I'm a closed door student of that master".. to which I ask why? I someone is a closed door student, meaning that they are learning something that no one else can seem to get, then why post it? Is it to create some kind of draw to learn from the person posting? That he/she has the special stuff so everyone should beat a path to his/her door to get it?

 

When I read something like this it burns me to no end. I feel like that person is thumbing his/her nose in my face saying see what I got? You can't have any, ok? So go away and play with something else.

 

I was a student of a kung fu master at one time. I paid good money, I worked hard, and I always heard rumors that we (the student body) were getting played with regarding content. Good content was being held back from us even though we worked hard and had the desire to learn like anyone else. Then along comes that master's child who wrote in a magazine article, "I'm learning the secret stuff from my father". This was 20 years ago and it still irks me to this day.

 

Sorry for this rant.. am I wrong?

 

Does this not bother anyone else?

[Protector]

Maaaaaaaan did that stuff use to bother me or what

For weeks I've been trying to figure out this one posture that everyone else around me knew for weeks but no one told me

[starhawk]

This was 20 years ago and it still irks me to this day.

 

Sorry for this rant.. am I wrong?

 

Does this not bother anyone else?

 

Those knuckleheads- you should just forgive them and move on... It seems like you still carry the 20 year memory. Those people aren't worth your time or memory...

Edited November 22, 2011 by starhawk

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

You must be trying to say something towards me from my post on FP Bagua Kid?

 

Yes, there is certain information one gets when you become a closed door disciple, believe it or not, but I teach out all my information to all my students never hold back. Just cause I mention my history doesnt mean anything but what I mentioned! Although my students dont get everything on a silver plater, they have to work for it and understand the traditions of what is taught to receive the information.

 

Why did I get asked to be a closed door of my teachers, who knows, did I earn it? I believe so, I train hard, study hard and know the values of respect to my teachers. Does being a close door disciple mean anything to me, Yes & No, nice to be accepted into such deep knowledge, but also a burden!

 

If this thread was based on my post if not I apologise for my response...

[mjjbecker]

I often read of people posting "I'm a closed door student of this master", and "I'm a closed door student of that master".. to which I ask why? I someone is a closed door student, meaning that they are learning something that no one else can seem to get, then why post it? Is it to create some kind of draw to learn from the person posting? That he/she has the special stuff so everyone should beat a path to his/her door to get it?

 

It can be someone claiming to be better than others. Human nature being what it is, ego is there. Status is also a big part of Chinese culture-which you will know from your own experience.

 

What is most significant though, is that it should mean the person claiming this has an indepth understanding of what they are doing. They have progressed to a certain level and understanding. This mode of ranking simply follows the Chinese cultural and historical tradition.

 

There are examples of people that have paid masters large sums of money just to be accepted as disciples. These people have then not really bothered to do the training. They simply wanted the status.

 

All that matters is ability. Disciple status implies that the person has spent the effort and time required to gain this. It doesn't guarantee it.

 

When I read something like this it burns me to no end. I feel like that person is thumbing his/her nose in my face saying see what I got? You can't have any, ok? So go away and play with something else.

 

Might indeed be the case with some people. What good are you doing yourself by your reaction to it though? It might also be someone sincerely stating that another person is making claims or comments, yet there is no way they could be talking about such things from experience-because that person isn't a senior member of a school. The same applies to the Japanese koryu-classical martial arts schools.

 

I was a student of a kung fu master at one time. I paid good money, I worked hard, and I always heard rumors that we (the student body) were getting played with regarding content. Good content was being held back from us even though we worked hard and had the desire to learn like anyone else. Then along comes that master's child who wrote in a magazine article, "I'm learning the secret stuff from my father". This was 20 years ago and it still irks me to this day.

 

I can understand your feelings, but if you had an idea you were being ripped off, then it is down to you. You chose to learn from said teacher and you chose to stay there. It doesn't excuse the teacher-if he implied or claimed there would be full passing on of knowledge. If he lied to you, then you have some genuine grievance. If he didn't, and you were working from your own assumption, it is on your head. If you thought he was taking the piss, you had the option to leave. Yes, I speak with some experience of this, and have left teachers because I did not feel their morality was what it should be.

 

In life we are responsible for our choices and decisions, irrespective of what others do.

 

 

Does this not bother anyone else?

 

If someone is being an asshole and blowing their own trumpet, then that is their problem. If a school decides it doesn't want to teach me because said school is racist, then again that is their problem. I had that with the Mo Pai. It doesn't bother me at all. It isn't simply about what the school offers-it is far more important to ask yourself if said school shares the same values as you do.

 

I've trained with a variety of teachers in a variety of systems. If it hasn't worked out then I've moved on. This is no different to life. There are ups and downs. Good times and bad. Good people and not so good people. Good days and bad. What do you do? Fester over it? What is the point or use of that? Been there and done that and it does no good. There will be methods and teachings I will never have access to for whatever reasons. It does me no good to worry about this-I would rather get on with what I can be doing.

 

Don't let it keep you down. I know the feeling, but feelings pass if you let them.

 

http://www.lyrics007.com/Frank%20Sinatra%20Lyrics/That%27s%20Life%20Lyrics.html

 

Frank Sinatra - That's Life

 

That's life, that's what all the people say.

You're riding high in April,

Shot down in May

But I know I'm gonna change that tune,

When I'm back on top, back on top in June.

 

I said that's life, and as funny as it may seem

Some people get their kicks,

Stompin' on a dream

But I don't let it, let it get me down,

'Cause this fine ol' world it keeps spinning around

 

I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate,

A poet, a pawn and a king.

I've been up and down and over and out

And I know one thing:

Each time I find myself, flat on my face,

I pick myself up and get back in the race.

 

That's life

I tell ya, I can't deny it,

I thought of quitting baby,

But my heart just ain't gonna buy it.

And if I didn't think it was worth one single try,

I'd jump right on a big bird and then I'd fly

 

I've been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate,

A poet, a pawn and a king.

I've been up and down and over and out

And I know one thing:

Each time I find myself laying flat on my face,

I just pick myself up and get back in the race

 

That's life

That's life and I can't deny it

Many times I thought of cutting out

But my heart won't buy it

But if there's nothing shakin' come this here july

I'm gonna roll myself up in a big ball and die

My, My

 

[Baguakid]

You must be trying to say something towards me from my post on FP Bagua Kid?

 

Yes, there is certain information one gets when you become a closed door disciple, believe it or not, but I teach out all my information to all my students never hold back. Just cause I mention my history doesnt mean anything but what I mentioned! Although my students dont get everything on a silver plater, they have to work for it and understand the traditions of what is taught to receive the information.

 

Why did I get asked to be a closed door of my teachers, who knows, did I earn it? I believe so, I train hard, study hard and know the values of respect to my teachers. Does being a close door disciple mean anything to me, Yes & No, nice to be accepted into such deep knowledge, but also a burden!

 

If this thread was based on my post if not I apologise for my response...

 

If you're teaching that out Garry then that's great. I've had the unfortunate luck to be around quite a few A-holes in this business and am extremely gun shy anymore. I value my time and money. Especially my time. I hate to be taken down the yellow brick road only to find a pile of bricks on the other side. On the other side I've met some very good people, good hearted. Otherwise I would have left this stuff to take up walking or something.

 

The point of this is usually everyone wants to be their best in the arts (and I know there are jerks in the student body who don't deserve higher learning). People I've met before held us back for political (this is my family stuff, nobody gets it) or money reasons (e.g. if I give you my secret material you're going to take all my business). So, when someone mentiones closed door I (right or wrong) immediately turn the other way. It gives the feeling that I'm going to get burned in this school. Since you've said you teach everything out to those that work for it then I have a greater respect and admiration.

 

This isn't about you per se, it's been a long time irritation and your post just set me off after a long day/late night day.

[konchog uma]

Sorry for this rant.. am I wrong?

 

haha feelings aren't right or wrong they're just feelings, but the strong ones rarely take into account the entire picture from a logical point of view. I have to admit though, that would irk me too!!

 

teachers have always felt the responsibility to protect powerful techniques from those who might abuse them. So for that reason, they made a student prove their sincerity and character as well as work their ass off before they would teach them the true internal aspects of an art.

 

think about it from 1000 feet up in the air, not identifying with your feelings for a moment. If just anyone could go to a teacher and pay them for a powerful technique, all that would foster is rich people getting more powerful. And as we all know, rich people are rarely the models of virtue and responsibility that we wish they were. So for that reason, teachers taught what they wanted to outdoors, but only invited the students that had proved themselves indoors.

 

Don't get me wrong, i dont pretend to know the motivations of Every teacher, or say that discrimination is always prudent. But i am saying that there is a good reason for protecting the secrets of a lineage from fools with money, and saving them for those who had proven themselves.

[Informer]

Psychological manipulation:

 

Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.[1] By advancing the interests of the manipulator, often at the other's expense, such methods could be considered exploitative, abusive, devious, and deceptive.

 

Social influence is not necessarily negative. For example, doctors can try to persuade patients to change unhealthy habits. Social influence is generally perceived to be harmless when it respects the right of the influenced to accept or reject it, and is not unduly coercive. Depending on the context and motivations, social influence may constitute underhanded manipulation.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

 

One may act different towards a person if they think that he is hiding secrets that they may want.

 

I would just treat everyone the same, whether a bum on the street or a millionaire movie star. Then you are immune to psychological manipulation. As regardless of what they are saying, it will not influence your actions or mannerisms etc. You may see everyone as that which we all are.

 

One may be as delusional to not even realize that they are flaunting psychological manipulation along with revealing the coveted residual self-image, beholden within.

 

I find it more revealing than irking. To be irked by the way of things will only cause further distress.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Informer

[NeiChuan]

To have a need to exploit which is kept from societies need to pervert, only shows uncontent.

[寒月 Hanyue]

I often read of people posting "I'm a closed door student of this master", and "I'm a closed door student of that master".. to which I ask why? ...

 

Does this not bother anyone else?

 

Different cultural perspectives are just that. Its why the concept of "culture shock" came about. The world-views underpinning the reasoning behind someone from another culture's actions are not always so clear and to ONLY view them from your own cultures ethics, morals, etc is limiting. Now are there people that take advantage? of course there are. Are there people who will use manipulation or hide behind such things of course there are.

 

Is it really irritating!? yes.

 

First I want to say that in every training group under a teacher I have been involved in, from martial arts, or qigong, to sports, and Somatic disciplines, a hierarchy occurs. There are the students closest to the teacher, usually longer standing ones but not always. Then there are the students who simply come regularly, and those that come semi-regularly and then new drop ins. They are each taught and treated differently, regardless of paying the same money and attending the same training. They may not come up with or use grades and fancy names and titles. But stay with the group long enough and be observant and you will see this.

 

So the "system" doesn't bother me, because I see it everywhere simply in natural group dynamics. Abuse, confusing, lying to and manipulation of students by teachers, yes that bothers me! Especially if they use religion or culture to do it.

 

The teacher-student relationship of Chinese arts is primarily based upon the Confucian family hierarchy system. As is the Japanese Koryu. It is NOT a model of education, and in fact the layers of student, inner door disciple etc have more to do with a great many things other than simply learning the art. Some disciples will have never even taken a lesson in the art, they will however have pledged an oath to the teacher and taken on a responsibility regarding helping to sustain and maintain the lineage. Discipleship is not about learning the "secret" techniques, so much as it is about acceptance into a 'family' and accepting the wider implications and responsibilities of that. Many do NOT want to do this and prefer to remain a student.

 

As far as the art itself goes, for those that are training. In my experience all that happens is the basics are emphasised and really drilled into them, rather than simply letting chase after the seemingly more important aspects of the system (gong before forms etc). Yes some teachers abuse this system, others do not, some students abuse this system, others do not.

 

In the West in modern times we have a different education model and concepts of teacher and their relationship to students. Does this get abused? Of course it does.

 

I hear your frustration, especially if someone drags you through the bushes and back. I'm sorry to hear you've been on the negative receiving end. Can't have been pleasant to put in so much time and money and be left feeling out in the rain.

 

Best,

[zanshin]

I often read of people posting "I'm a closed door student of this master", and "I'm a closed door student of that master".. to which I ask why? I someone is a closed door student, meaning that they are learning something that no one else can seem to get, then why post it? Is it to create some kind of draw to learn from the person posting? That he/she has the special stuff so everyone should beat a path to his/her door to get it?

 

When I read something like this it burns me to no end. I feel like that person is thumbing his/her nose in my face saying see what I got? You can't have any, ok? So go away and play with something else.

 

I was a student of a kung fu master at one time. I paid good money, I worked hard, and I always heard rumors that we (the student body) were getting played with regarding content. Good content was being held back from us even though we worked hard and had the desire to learn like anyone else. Then along comes that master's child who wrote in a magazine article, "I'm learning the secret stuff from my father". This was 20 years ago and it still irks me to this day.

 

Sorry for this rant.. am I wrong?

 

Does this not bother anyone else?

 

I think if your kung fu teacher expressed he was teaching you what he knew and wasn't then you're not wrong. I don't know if it's fair to extend it to general posters on the internet. My teacher is 80+ year old Chinese lady who is mostly retired and a private person who teaches just a few people in her home, I could spin that and give some details to sound really snotty. But it really just is my context and background, so I could say I'm closed door student. What description should I give to express this without seeming snotty, offensive or commercial about it?

 

A lot of "secret techniques" is spin too, maybe you work harder and pay more if rumors you might get secret stuff. Maybe they just don't want impression it's a plain old mediocre kung fu school.

[Informer]

What description should I give to express this without seeming snotty, offensive or commercial about it?

 

 

You missed a fairly obvious option.

 

 

.

[zanshin]

Shut up, be nice and quiet and don't say anything? Funny thing that sort of attitude makes me want to be snotty for the sheer fun of it.

[Fu_dog]

Baguakid -

 

As stated in the FP thread, I practiced at the same kung fu school as you did (I'm wondering if we weren't there at the same time?), and had exactly the same feelings as you did regarding the "secret" material that was withheld.

 

Like you, I invested my time, my money, my energy, and certainly had the intelligence, physical tools and keen desire to learn the things which were withheld, and I always had a level of frustration/disappointment knowing that these things were not going to be taught, no matter what.

 

I also read the daughter's article. I also read where she said she thought she would continue that same policy. I like her personally, but I can't agree. That simply is what it is, I suppose. Too bad, because there were a lot of students that were committed to learning all that was taught, but there were certain techniques and practices that simply weren't going to be.

 

Fortunately, we are starting to see some emerging masters like Sifu Garry that *will* teach all that a student is capable of learning.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Fu_dog

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

Chinese traditional way was to keep the art authentic, these days people pay money and want the highest teachings before they can even master just a basic horse stance or punching methods. How many kung fu masters and students online you see that cant even do basics properly. The closed door way or higher learning was to safe guard the system from being watered down or messed up, as well skills like dim ma / Dim Yuet are not trusted to some students or even anyone cause in the wrong hands can really hurt someone. I know before you all start carrying on we live in a world where you can just get a gun and shoot someone, but chinese martial arts still have some rules and etiquette regarding learning these things. If a student cannot master the basics why should they be given anything else???

 

This is the Bak Fu Pai creed and is similar to the Bak Mei creed!

 

Respect your country, respect the people.

Respect your Shi Fu and ancestors, respect all martial arts.

Learn righteous, learn magnanimous, learn Kung Fu.

If you are able to accomplish the art, be humble.

A master of the art does not abuse his knowledge by using it wrongfully.

If a person is not a righteous person, he must not be taught even if he offers you ten thousand ounces of gold.

If a person is a relative, but is not righteous, they may not be taught.

If a person is a relative, and is righteous, they shall be taught.

If you are able to learn the White Tiger Fist and Staff, though it may look like a useless rock, treat it as a brick of gold.

 

(Translation from Doaist Monk Fung Doe Duk, 1644 A.D.)

[Baguakid]

The problem with Closed Door is the wording... Closed Door. If it was Inner Circle, then that I could relate to and strive for. Closed door has the feeling of "butt out, this is our club, you're not invited".. or "no matter how good you are or how hard you work, you ain't never gonna get it".

 

On the other hand, if Inner Circle was used, again, then that would be something to strive for. Something to hold up and say, damn, I worked hard, refined myself, my teacher appreciates that and respects my efforts and diligence. Sees my refinement and asperations of being the best in every way. Recognises my respect for the art and it's purity. The Golden Circle... now that has a feeling of... wonder, joy, pride.

 

 

Closed Door gives the feeling of Darkness, Secrets, Negativity.

 

Sorry, my take on the subject.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Baguakid

[konchog uma]

i think it came from the distinction between "indoor" and "outdoor" students

 

which sounds innocent. But its all the same things regardless of what you call it so i don't know ???

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

Bagua kid,

 

I think inner circle is better word for you and maybe look at it as such cause that is all it is!

[Mokona]

Good luck finding a new Martial arts class.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I guess my view is in contradiction with itself but,

1) masters studied their arts for decades to learn the "secrets" so they might not want to just hand it over to someone who's only been doing their regular thing for a few years unless they feel a deep affinity for that person, like a family member. Otherwise they worked all that time and then someone just walks in and takes what they learned without the effort and, if they don't show the right character, will walk around full of themself, which would just spite the master and all his hard work...

 

2) Inner circles are for cults. If there is an obvious inner circle and the people inside them act better than those outside of them, they are of low character and not worth aspiring to join anyways.

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

Harmony,

 

That isnt true at all, there is students that come and go and there is students that train so so and there is students that are really loyal and want to learn the full system. To hand over everything without them being ready or deserving will only destroy the art this has also been my experience. You ever here stories of old masters teaching stances for years before allowing someone to get into forms? This happened to me also I was tested in my loyalty for many many years before even being accepted to Bai Shee, by helping the club doing chores for my Sifu things that wasnt even kung fu related. I also test my loyalty of my students this way, I dont think anyone should be given a free ride in CMA, Kung fu means hard work and you really have to understand what Kung Fu is not just on an fighting or art side of things.

 

Just my 2 cents!

 

Sifu Garry

[Aetherous]

I am not a martial artist but...

 

Training is training. A good attitude to have is: you get out what you put into it. If you are learning something....anything...and are challenged, then that's awesome. Become the best at it that you can be.

 

A person could take a math class and only learn 1+1=2...but depending on the student they could build off of that on their own, becoming a genius...or they could complain that it's not hard enough and not get anywhere.

 

An idea I like is that mastery involves a continual perfecting of the basics.

 

It sucks to be kept on the outside of the group which you're passionate about, though.

[寒月 Hanyue]

The problem with Closed Door is the wording... Closed Door.

 

Sorry, my take on the subject.

 

As I was taught, there are inner door disciples, and ONLY ONE closed door disciple. The last disciple accepted as inner door is the closed door disciple, simply because the door is now closed. This is usually because the teacher/master is now too old to take on new disciples.

 

The terms inner door and closed door get confused. But maybe there are systems that use the terms differently?

 

Best,

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

Inner door, closed door, inner circle all same to me, depends on how you look at it!

 

Scotty, sure it sucks but maybe the master is seeing something different to what you or the person is doing to judge you in this case? How many people here on this forum, learn something of this and that and think they know it all from a book or DVD in a matter of months or a year and claim to be the teachers pet and representative? Kunlun is a perfect example!!!

 

People mixing KAP with Kunlun, and mao shan and all sorts but havent even bothered to study one thing perfectly, another example how a system gets watered down and destroyed I totally see why the masters kept the secrecy.

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Harmony,

 

That isnt true at all[....]

 

 

Warrior Body Buddha Mind,

 

I'm pretty sure we're in agreement there. What I was showing were (some of the )reasons why it makes sense for a sifu to ensure he is not giving "secrets" away to the wrong people.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness