Patanjali's Sutras and Samyama questions

[jijaji]

Advaita Vedanta is not entirely a non-dual school, the pure non-dual aspect is Kevala Advaita. However in Advaita Vedanta there is Upasana of both Nirguna and Saguna Brahman.

 

cheers

Edited December 20, 2011 by jijaji

[Tibetan_Ice]

I have to agree what I hear being considered as Bhakti in AYP is not in accordance with any School of Bhakti I know of, be it Vaishnava, Shaiva or even Bhakti in Advaita Vedanta.

 

I read this from an AYP lesson today which I found strange:

 

Q: I have been doing meditation for quite some time now and had a lot of spinal breathing exercises. Since four years ago I have been in taoist sexual practices and I can now elevate sexual energies to the crown. Although I have been faithful to my wife as she had been my partner, she is quite slow in practicing and I found myself doing most of the practices all alone. However I have other women in mind in doing the practices on my own. Is this harmful to my wellbeing? Second, are the women that I am fantasizing on affected by my visualizations and emotional energy? Please enlighten me on this matter.

 

 

A: Fantasies for solo practice are fine. If we use them to go higher, it is a form of bhakti, yes? As ecstatic conductivity gradually comes up, the fantasies will transform to a higher expression of ecstatic bliss and divine love bubbling from within. Then the process will be self-sustaining, and there will be little need to fantasize on external persons or objects.

 

 

Hi Jijaji

Yes, that is strange. Promoting lust for other women while married in order to cultivate sexual energy in the form of ecstatic bliss just doesn't sit right for me. How is that a form of bhakti?

 

The other lie about that is that Yogani states that this will transform into a higher expression of ecstatic bliss and divine love. Divine love? It takes a great effort to not to fall prey to the sexual sensual sensations and feelings that arise when specifically cultivating the kundalini. Many people are not capable of overcoming the pull. They get caught in the lust, the sensations, the distraction until eventually they might realize that this is not bhakti or even meditation at that point. But it is very hard. In a way, it is a trap.

 

If a person does not succeed in bringing the shakti up into the heart where it can be converted into a higher form of energy, the person is risking getting stuck at the lower chakras. Or, typically, the person cannot handle the energy and becomes overloaded. Yogani is saying that the fantasies will magically transform into divine love.. On another note, what about the temptations of Christ or the temptations of various gurus on their path to the divine? Many say that just before you reach your goal of realizing God, lust will rise up and distract you from your goal. It is a very powerful force. Yet, AYP actually cultivates this aspect and calls it bhakti.. ?

 

You see, to AYP, to Yogani, bhakti is a tool that is used to enhance practices. It is the science of using your devotion to your ishta for purification and enhancing practices..

 

Here is what Yogani says in Lesson 67 - Bhakti The science of devotion:

The great nineteenth-century Indian saint, Ramakrishna, was a master

at creating huge outpourings of bhakti. He would writhe around on the

floor at the base of the statue of Mother Divine he worshipped,

sobbing and sobbing for the slightest touch from her inside. The more

upset he got the more he would direct it toward his ishta, the

statue. He seemed like a crazy man. All the while his bhakti was

working like a laser beam, slicing through every obstruction in his

nervous system. By bhakti alone he became the divine.

 

The extremes of bhakti are not necessarily what we are aiming for

here in these lessons, though it is up to you. Even a little bhakti

goes a very long way. There is great power in it. So much so that we

have to remind ourselves that intense bhakti can have a big effect on

the rise of our kundalini, both directly through the emotional

energy, and in the turbo-charging effect that bhakti brings into all

of our practices. As with all yoga practices, we can overdo bhakti,

so we must be mindful about that. Our experience is the best measure

of whether or not we are overdoing it. Everyone has their own time

line, their own pace for the spiritual purification process. Let your

experience be your guide.

 

Because the method of bhakti produces predictable results over and

over again, we can say that it is a systematic application of

knowledge. Bhakti is the science of devotion -- a powerful science

indeed.

 

Yogani is saying that bhakti "was working like a laser beam, slicing through every obstruction in his nervous system." Do you really think that Ramakrishna was performing his bhakti to clear out neurobiological obstructions? But yes, Yogani leads us to believe, not only that we have to clear obstructions, but that we can use bhakti to clear these obstructions. Isn't this opportunistic? True bhakti is pure love of God, not something to be used to render practices more effective.. To AYP, bhakti is a "scientific" tool.

 

Other systems of kundalini teachings will tell you that there is an emotional component to raising the kundalini, that one must also activate and direct the emotional energy, and that helps the flow between the etheric, astral and mental sheaths.. but to cultivate bhakti as the emotional component for alterior purposes just doesn't seem like a proper thing to do.

 

TI

Edited December 21, 2011 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi xabir2005

Thank you for your contribution..

I have a few comments..

 

Patanjali's framework and philosophy is Sankhya.

 

Sankhya is a dualist school: it teaches that there are two components in reality, one is Spirit (Purusa), one is Matter (Prakriti).

 

Spirit is pure consciousness, the witness, your true self. It teaches that Spirit and matter are two different things - cannot be mixed, like water and oil does not mix together.

 

Advaita is a non-dual school - it teaches Consciousness is the One without Second. There is no split between spirit and matter because everything is Brahman alone. It says, "The world is illusory, Brahman alone is real, Brahman is the world" - and the third step is what differentiates Advaita from Sankhya.

Just logically speaking, if the world is illusory and Brahman is the world, then Brahman is illusory.

But I know what it is trying to say..

 

Imo you can use Sankhya framework and the Patanjali teachings to realize/experience the I AM, then later with some Advaita teachings you may collapse any Subject/Object dichotomy into Oneness. It could be a stepping stone, so not implying that the I AM is any less valuable or important, plus non-dual realization does not deny the I AM experience but just transforms the view.

Patanjali's Sutras are a system whereby you transcend the subject/object dichotomy through samyama and realize the Self. In doing so, one will realize unity consciousness, non-dualism and much more. Unity consciousness is not the end. It is a phenomenon of the heart, which is why the heart can remote view, see anything or anywhere.

 

This guy (a Yoga teacher with personal insight and experience of what he's talking about) explains a little about this in his interview:

(Richard C Miller Speaks Yoga Nidra and iRest)

Thanks for that. Miller seems quite eclectic, that is, he has borrowed his ideas from many sources. The thing I found interesting is how he brought up the idea that feeling one's life force in the hand drains the mind of energy and consciousness. That practice is also mentioned by Eckhart Tolle, and it is called 'sensing the inner body'. Tolle says it is a quick method to Presence. That same technique is also called Anapanasati, or mindfulness of body (and breathing) and was taught by Buddha.

 

Anyway if you want to get some ideas about the difference between I AM and Non-Dual, read this article, at least the top one: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-ken.html

You know, generally speaking I like Ken Wilbur, as long as he isn't being too intellectual or political. Some of his descriptions are very clear.

 

The thing I question about neo-advaitists is that somehow they have justified ending the search by ignoring thought, yet they don't have any powers or miracles to convince us of their state. But that's just my preference.

 

I say, if you're enlightened, prove it to me. Appear in my living room. Take me to another plane, or take me shopping in Bombay for a day trip. Heal some people, walk on water, or even just levitate for a while.. or better yet, appear to me in the astral plane and show me something I've never seen before. I would much prefer that than the redefinition of the term "enlightenment" to the point where it reduces itself to something everyone can claim to be (which seems to be a popular practice these days).

 

TI

Edited December 21, 2011 by Tibetan_Ice

[3bob]

Hi xabir2005

Thank you for your contribution..

I have a few comments..

 

 

Just logically speaking, if the world is illusory and Brahman is the world, then Brahman is illusory.

But I know what it is trying to say..

 

 

Patanjali's Sutras are a system whereby you transcend the subject/object dichotomy through samyama and realize the Self. In doing so, one will realize unity consciousness, non-dualism and much more. Unity consciousness is not the end. It is a phenomenon of the heart, which is why the heart can remote view, see anything or anywhere.

 

 

Thanks for that. Miller seems quite eclectic, that is, he has borrowed his ideas from many sources. The thing I found interesting is how he brought up the idea that feeling one's life force in the hand drains the mind of energy and consciousness. That practice is also mentioned by Eckhart Tolle, and it is called 'sensing the inner body'. Tolle says it is a quick method to Presence. That same technique is also called Anapanasati, or mindfulness of body (and breathing) and was taught by Buddha.

 

 

You know, generally speaking I like Ken Wilbur, as long as he isn't being too intellectual or political. Some of his descriptions are very clear.

 

The thing I question about neo-advaitists is that somehow they have justified ending the search by ignoring thought, yet they don't have any powers or miracles to convince us of their state. But that's just my preference.

 

I say, if you're enlightened, prove it to me. Appear in my living room. Take me to another plane, or take me shopping in Bombay for a day trip. Heal some people, walk on water, or even just levitate for a while.. or better yet, appear to me in the astral plane and show me something I've never seen before. I would much prefer that than the redefinition of the term "enlightenment" to the point where it reduces itself to something everyone can claim to be (which seems to be a popular practice these days).

 

TI

 

 

"...I say, if you're enlightened, prove it to me. Appear in my living room. Take me to another plane, or take me shopping in Bombay for a day trip. Heal some people, walk on water, or even just levitate for a while.. or better yet, appear to me in the astral plane and show me something I've never seen before..."

 

none of which proves anything close to enlightenment... for certain demons can and also have done such things.

[xabir2005]

"...I say, if you're enlightened, prove it to me. Appear in my living room. Take me to another plane, or take me shopping in Bombay for a day trip. Heal some people, walk on water, or even just levitate for a while.. or better yet, appear to me in the astral plane and show me something I've never seen before..."

 

none of which proves anything close to enlightenment... for certain demons can and also have done such things.

Agree.

 

I have to say there are a bit (only a bit) of truth to the notions that enlightened persons have psychic powers. Why? Because it so happens that majority of the highly enlightened person I personally know... have some mastery of psychic powers. They are able to read minds, know things without asking, see past lives, teach me in dreams, etc etc - really interesting stuff.

 

But to say that this MUST apply for ALL enlightened beings is not necessarily true...

 

All these are just side-effects of meditation practice and samadhi. It is not a must. People who master samadhi or powers may NOT be awakened... (lots of unenlightened people have powers) and those who are awakened may NOT have mastery of samadhi or powers.

 

Not all awakened beings must have mastery of samadhi (as showcased in the conversation with Buddha below)

 

There is a Buddhist sutta (forgive me if its inappropriate in this forum) which explains that this is not necessarily true (that all awakened beings must have powers):

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html

SN 12.70

PTS: S ii 119

CDB i 612

Susima Sutta: About Susima

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

© 1998–2011

 

Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43 and AN 9.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.

 

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels' sanctuary. Now at that time the Blessed One was worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage — a recipient of robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for the sick. The community of monks was also worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage — a recipient of robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for the sick. But the wanderers of other sects were not worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, or given homage, nor were they recipients of robes, almsfood, lodgings, or medical requisites for the sick.

 

Now at that time Susima the wanderer was living in Rajagaha with a large following of wanderers. And so Susima's following of wanderers said to him, "Come now, friend Susima. Go live the holy life under Gotama the contemplative. When you have completely mastered the Dhamma, tell it to us; when we have completely mastered it, we will teach it to householders and then we, too, will be worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage; we too will become recipients of robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for the sick."

 

Responding, "As you say, friends," to his own following, Susima the wanderer went to Ven. Ananda and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ananda, "Friend Ananda, I want to live the holy life in this Dhamma & Discipline."

 

Then Ven. Ananda took Susima the wanderer to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, this wanderer, Susima, has said, 'Friend Ananda, I want to live the holy life in this Dhamma & Discipline.'"

 

"Then in that case, Ananda, give him the Going Forth." So Susima the wanderer gained the Going Forth in the presence of the Blessed One, he gained the Acceptance (into the community of monks).

 

Now at that time a large number of monks had declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: "We discern that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'"

 

Ven. Susima heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Ven. Susima went to those monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them, "Is it true, as they say, that you have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world"'?"

 

"Yes, friend."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? Having been one you become many; having been many you become one? You appear? You vanish? You go unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space? You dive in & out of the earth as if it were water? You walk on water without sinking as if it were dry land? Sitting crosslegged you fly through the air like a winged bird? With your hand you touch and stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful? You exercise influence with your body even as far as the Brahma worlds?"

 

"No, friend."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you hear — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far?"

 

"No, friend."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you know the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with your own awareness? Do you discern a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion; a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion; a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion; a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind; an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind;an excelled mind [one that is not on the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind; a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind; a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind?"

 

"No, friend."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you recollect your manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"

 

"No, friend."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you see — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and do you discern how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world'?"

 

"No, friend."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

 

"No, friend."

 

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

 

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."

 

"I don't understand the detailed meaning of your brief statement. It would be good if you would speak in such a way that I would understand its detailed meaning."

 

"Whether or not you understand, friend Susima, we are still released through discernment."

 

So Ven. Susima got up from his seat and went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he told the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those monks.

 

[The Blessed One said:] "First, Susima, there is the knowledge of the regularity of the Dhamma [dependent co-arising], after which there is the knowledge of Unbinding."

 

"I don't understand the detailed meaning of the Blessed One's brief statement. It would be good if the Blessed One would speak in such a way that I would understand its detailed meaning."

 

"Whether or not you understand, Susima, it is still the case that first there is the knowledge of the regularity of the Dhamma, after which there is the knowledge of Unbinding.

 

"What do you think, Susima: Is form [any physical phenomenon] constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord." — "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" — "Stressful, lord." — "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

 

"No, lord."

 

"...Is feeling constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord."...

 

"...Is perception constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord."...

 

"...Are fabrications constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord."...

 

"What do you think, Susima: Is consciousness constant or inconstant?" — "Inconstant, lord." — "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" — "Stressful, lord." — "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

 

"No, lord."

 

"Thus, Susima, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

 

"Any feeling whatsoever...

 

"Any perception whatsoever...

 

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

 

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

 

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

 

"Susima, do you see that from birth as a requisite condition there is aging & death?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from becoming as a requisite condition there is birth?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition there is becoming?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from craving as a requisite condition there is clinging/sustenance?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from feeling as a requisite condition there is craving?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from contact as a requisite condition there is feeling?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the six sense media as a requisite condition there is contact?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from name-&-form as a requisite condition there are the six sense media?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from consciousness as a requisite condition there is name-&-form?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from fabrications as a requisite condition there is consciousness?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from ignorance as a requisite condition there are fabrications?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Now, Susima, do you see that from the cessation of birth there is the cessation of aging & death?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of becoming there is the cessation of birth?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of clinging/sustenance there is the cessation of becoming?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of craving there is the cessation of clinging/sustenance?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of feeling there is the cessation of craving?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of the six sense media there is the cessation of contact?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of name-&-form there is the cessation of the six sense media?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of name-&-form?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of fabrications there is the cessation of consciousness?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Do you see that from the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of fabrications?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? Having been one you become many; having been many you become one? You appear? You vanish? You go unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space? You dive in & out of the earth as if it were water? You walk on water without sinking as if it were dry land? Sitting crosslegged you fly through the air like a winged bird? With your hand you touch and stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful? You exercise influence with your body even as far as the Brahma worlds?"

 

"No, lord."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you hear — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far?"

 

"No, lord."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you know the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with your own awareness? Do you discern a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion; a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion; a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion; a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind; an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind;an excelled mind [one that is not on the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind; a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind; a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind?"

 

"No, lord."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you recollect your manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"

 

"No, lord."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you see — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and do you discern how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world'?"

 

"No, lord."

 

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form?"

 

"No, lord."

 

"So just now, Susima, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

 

Then, throwing himself down with his head at the Blessed One's feet, Ven. Susima said to the Blessed One, "A transgression has overcome me, lord, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, & so unskilled as to go forth as a thief of the Dhamma in this well-taught Dhamma & Discipline! May the Blessed One please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."

 

"Yes, Susima, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, & so unskilled as to go forth as a thief of the Dhamma in this well-taught Dhamma & Discipline. Suppose, Susima, that a robber, an evil-doer, having been caught, were shown to a king: 'This, your majesty, is a robber, an evil-doer. Decree what punishment you want for him.' And so the king would say, 'Go and — having bound him with a stout rope with his arms pinned tightly against his back, having shaved him bald — march him to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads; evict him out the south gate of the city and there, to the south of the city, cut off his head.' Then the king's men, having bound the man with a stout rope with his arms pinned tightly against his back, would march him to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads, evict him out the south gate of the city and there, to the south of the city, cut off his head. What do you think, Susima? Wouldn't that man, for that reason, experience pain & distress?"

 

"Yes, lord."

 

"However much the pain & distress that man would experience for that reason, Susima, the Going Forth of a thief of the Dhamma in this well-taught Dhamma & Discipline is still more painful in its result, more bitter in its result, in that it leads even to the lower realms. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For, Susima, it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."

Edited December 21, 2011 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Patanjali's Sutras are a system whereby you transcend the subject/object dichotomy through samyama and realize the Self. In doing so, one will realize unity consciousness, non-dualism and much more. Unity consciousness is not the end. It is a phenomenon of the heart, which is why the heart can remote view, see anything or anywhere.

From what I've read, Patanjali is about the I AM. The I AM is free from subject/object - but it is only pertaining to the mind/non-conceptual thought realm. In that pure thoughtless beingness, there is no separation of 'me' with 'that', only I AM. This is Self-Realization. But when relating to the world of perceptions and senses and thoughts, there can still be a sense of being an ultimate witness behind those thoughts and perceptions. This is subject/object duality.

 

Also, I am not too concerned about powers... complete mastery of powers is not at the top priority for me - liberation (from sufferings, samsara, etc) is. Powers can be attained with or without awakening.

Edited December 21, 2011 by xabir2005

[dwai]

From what I've read, Patanjali is about the I AM. The I AM is free from subject/object - but it is only pertaining to the mind/non-conceptual thought realm. In that pure thoughtless beingness, there is no separation of 'me' with 'that', only I AM. This is Self-Realization. But when relating to the world of perceptions and senses and thoughts, there can still be a sense of being an ultimate witness behind those thoughts and perceptions. This is subject/object duality.

 

Also, I am not too concerned about powers... complete mastery of powers is not at the top priority for me - liberation (from sufferings, samsara, etc) is. Powers can be attained with or without awakening.

Yoga is generic enough that even the buddhists have adapted it...

So while yoga is the practical aspect of samkhya, it is compatible with advaita vedant, vraious tantras etc.

Yoga is about dissolving all objects and be pure consciousness....and there is nothing beyond that from an ontological perspective.

[jijaji]

Yoga is generic enough that even the buddhists have adapted it...

So while yoga is the practical aspect of samkhya, it is compatible with advaita vedant, vraious tantras etc.

Yoga is about dissolving all objects and be pure consciousness....and there is nothing beyond that from an ontological perspective.

 

Even many in the Vaishnava lines do some kind of Pranayama and Asana before their Japa.

 

cheers

Edited December 21, 2011 by jijaji

[xabir2005]

Yes I do agree, yoga is universal and can be separated from, or need not follow, any particular framework... and it also can be adopted and implemented in any framework.

[dwai]

Yes I do agree, yoga is universal and can be separated from, or need not follow, any particular framework... and it also can be adopted and implemented in any framework.

 

With one caveat being that it is best suited for dharmic systems...given that its end-goal is dissolution of the ego and realization of the True Self (ie it can result in cognitive dissonance for non-dharmic systems). BTW, I consider Daoism as part of the Dharmic traditions...

[guruyoga]

Even many in the Vaishnava lines do some kind of Pranayama and Asana before their Japa.

 

cheers

 

 

Which makes more sense due to its origins in dualisitic Samkhya. Yoga from the root yuj means to unite, which fits perfectly with the various theories of divine communion of theistic Vaishnavas (and shaivas) much more so than the Advaitins. Classic Advaitins like Shankara interpret the word yoga completely different (for example in his commentary on Bhagavadgita) from the exponents of Patanjala system.

[guruyoga]

 

Anyway if you want to get some ideas about the difference between I AM and Non-Dual, read this article, at least the top one: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-ken.html

 

How is this even faintly related to the topic in discussion? Or you just peg in your blog at the drop of the hat?

[guruyoga]

Advaita Vedanta is not entirely a non-dual school, the pure non-dual aspect is Kevala Advaita. However in Advaita Vedanta there is Upasana of both Nirguna and Saguna Brahman.

 

cheers

 

True and untrue. The upasana of saguna Brahman is recommended for him who is incapable of grasping the nirguna or nishkala aspect. That said, concept of Saguna Brahman does not make Advaita dualisitic. If you think it does, explain why?

[guruyoga]

Yes I do agree, yoga is universal and can be separated from, or need not follow, any particular framework... and it also can be adopted and implemented in any framework.

 

There are differing opinions on this. For example, can Rdzogs chen be separated from Buddhism and practiced and adopted/implemented in any framework - there are differing opinions here too.

[guruyoga]

 

Other systems of kundalini teachings will tell you that there is an emotional component to raising the kundalini, that one must also activate and direct the emotional energy, and that helps the flow between the etheric, astral and mental sheaths.. but to cultivate bhakti as the emotional component for alterior purposes just doesn't seem like a proper thing to do.

 

TI

 

Yogani is good for certain things and useless for some others. You hit the nail here, orchestrated bhakti with an ulterior motive is not Bhakti in any sense and simply does not achieve any of the intended purposes of bhakti - be it sahaja samadhi achieved through love and surrender, or channeling of emotional energy or attainment of grace of one's chosen deity. Bhakti needs to be innocent, unadulterated and "not designed" by the brain for it to truly function the way it is intended to.

[dwai]

Yogani is good for certain things and useless for some others. You hit the nail here, orchestrated bhakti with an ulterior motive is not Bhakti in any sense and simply does not achieve any of the intended purposes of bhakti - be it sahaja samadhi achieved through love and surrender, or channeling of emotional energy or attainment of grace of one's chosen deity. Bhakti needs to be innocent, unadulterated and "not designed" by the brain for it to truly function the way it is intended to.

 

Who is Yogani? Is she an ascetic or one of those new-age loonies?

[jijaji]

True and untrue. The upasana of saguna Brahman is recommended for him who is incapable of grasping the nirguna or nishkala aspect. That said, concept of Saguna Brahman does not make Advaita dualisitic. If you think it does, explain why?

 

Thanks for your responses here guruyoga , practice of Saguna Upasana is dualistic in itself, of course ultimately it's goal is to reach Nirguna brahman.

 

Also Karma and Bhakti is considered correct for houselders, meditation on Nirguna Brahman was generally reserved for the renunciates/sannyasins in Advaita line.

 

cheers

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Xabir

 

...

Not all awakened beings must have mastery of samadhi (as showcased in the conversation with Buddha below)

 

There is a Buddhist sutta (forgive me if its inappropriate in this forum) which explains that this is not necessarily true (that all awakened beings must have powers):

 

 

I think the proper interpretation of that passage is not one which supports or denies the existence or attainment of supranormal powers. There are two points which support my interpretation.

1) It clearly states that "the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.". According to most books I've read about the jhanas, one has to bring to fruition at least the fourth jhana before any supranormal powers are realized.

 

2) Susima's questions about supranormal powers were denied and dismissed by the monks because such questions show that the questioner had missed the point of the Dhammic path entirely. It is like focusing on the icing instead of the whole cake.

 

However, it is well known that Buddha stopped the raging elephant, replicated himself and appeared as 100 Buddhas floating in the sky, and performed other 'miracles'. I've even read that some Buddhists were taking out the miraculous deeds accomplished by Buddha from texts and writings because it promoted wrong influence, took away from pointing to the correct path.

 

The fruition of enlightenment, according to the Dalai Lama is omiscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. Those are three very big words..

 

In the book called "Dharma Paths", it is written:

From the first bhumi to the sixth bhumi (stage on the bodhisattva path), the individual develops what is known as the seven branches of enlightenment. The first branch of enlightenment is a perfect memory, such a strong memory that there is no chance for us to forget anything, even if someone tries to make us forget. We remember not only what is happening now, but what we have to do later and what we did earlier, very clearly and precisely.

The second branch is the wisdom of seeing all phenomena as they are. When we see things as they are instead of the way they appear to be, we have no confusion about whether they are right or wrong. The third branch of enlightenment is diligence, and especially diligence in working ceaselessly to benefit sentient beings. The fourth branch is developing not only diligence, but also perfect joy in working for beings. Laziness never overcomes us; we can work twenty-four hours a day to benefit all sentient beings, because of the strength that comes from joy.

The fifth branch of enlightenment is blissfulness and peacefulness of mind and body, as well as mental clarity. Having developed peacefulness, clarity, and blissfulness, there is nothing that can disturb or agitate our minds, and thus we can work continuously to benefit sentient beings. The sixth branch is samadhi, the profound meditative state, in which nothing can distract our minds. No matter what we are doing--walking, sitting, sleeping, or talking--we are able to maintain the state of samadhi.

The seventh branch of enlightenment is the perfect state of equanimity. We work to benefit all sentient beings equally, without any discrimination.... We do not discriminate between beings who are good to us and those who are trying to harm us. Having developed a perfect state of equanimity, we can always work spontaneously to benefit sentient beings, whether they praise us or blame us. When we have fully developed these seven branches of enlightenment, we have fully developed compassion as well. Since we have profound, sincere compassion, nothing can hinder us in benefiting sentient beings.

--from Dharma Paths by Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche, trans. by Ngodup Burkhar and Chojor Radha, ed. by Laura M. Roth

 

Now, I knew some people who have photographic memories but I don't think they are enlightened.. So, I agree with most of what you have said, and I think we've identified that there are different levels of awakening...

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Who is Yogani? Is she an ascetic or one of those new-age loonies?

Yogani is an annonymous male who wrote a sensationlistic book of fiction called "The Secrets of Wilder", in which John Wilder invents kundalini yoga entirely on his own through trial and error. Yogani has written several very short books about his interpretation of the Eight Limbs of Yoga and more. They contain many nebulous terms which he uses interchangeably throughout his writings, such as "inner silence', "stillness in action", "ecstatic conductivity", "bliss consciousness" etc..

 

He has published his 'lessons' online and hosts a forum from which, if you do not support his views or pose too many disruptive questions, you will be banned. I have seen many astute minds and excellent communicators become banned for supporting their non-AYP views on the forum. What remains is mostly a tribe of parrots and brown-nosers who push AYP practices as the solution for all. Several people on his forum have no bones about declaring that they are enlightened.

 

Further, if you post on his forum, you will not be able to edit or delete your posts after 14 days, yet he advertises that "Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors)". The AYP system is an attempt by Yogani to marry TM, TM-Siddhis and Kriya yoga techniques into a system of yoga. He claims that inner silence is cultivated and that it grows through Deep Meditation. Any topic about chakras is considered "under the hood".

 

In an effort to mitigate the common overloads from cultivating kundalini energy flows, Yogani introduces the idea of self-pacing. After many years of AYP practices, there are some members who cannot perform his practices without severe overload. This problem has not been resolved.

 

According to what Yogani has posted here (next), even he is subject to overloads and claims that "no great sage has been beyond it's effects":

 

My experience with the energetics has been that the local capacity has always been increasing, meaning the neurobiology's ability to serve as a channel for "stillness in action" has kept increasing and refining over time. At the same time, so has the range of influence beyond this body/mind. That increasing range of influence in relation to the condition of the nervous system has been the determining factor in whether or not energy excesses have been experienced. This is why I have always said that advanced practitioners will find themselves self-pacing also, because they are influencing (and being influenced by) a far wider space than the individual body/mind.

 

This sort of expanding energy dynamic can be found in the scriptures also, and no great sage has been beyond it's effects, though most have borne it very well, due to the eternal inner silence they knew themselves to be. And this is not to say such experiences have been unwanted. As I mentioned earlier, service is the next step after individual freedom has dawned. We are all given about all we can handle, no matter how far we have gone on the path.

 

Further, experiences are referred to as scenery, and as such don't count for much. In one of his posts, he says this about the other planes:

All the speculation about other realms and worlds is just that -- speculation. It only becomes meaningful when we find ourselves in a position to make a contribution in stillness, and then it isn't anything that resembles the mental concepts we might have had about it. It is just more practice and self-pacing in the here and now. Such is the breadth of the human nervous system, and yoga.

 

Yogani's main emphasis is on practices and cultivating the neurobiology. He claims to have been doing so for over 40 years.

 

And although it is called "Advanced Yoga Practices", he says that the "Advanced" in "Advanced Yoga Practices" actually refers to the communication media that he uses to disseminate his teachings.

 

If a person were to buy all of his books that he sells through his publishing company, it would cost you a few hundred dollars.

 

His moderators host AYP retreats, yet they have never had the benefit of meeting him in person, nor have they ever received any shaktipat or personal instruction, only through the electronic media. Yogani discounts the importance of shaktipat and a personal guru, thus, his famous expression is "The Guru is in you".

 

Well, that's enough of that.

 

TI

[xabir2005]

Hi Xabir

 

I think the proper interpretation of that passage is not one which supports or denies the existence or attainment of supranormal powers. There are two points which support my interpretation.

Hi Tibetan_Ice, The sutta never denies the existence of powers, but explains that powers are not a necessary requirement or characteristic of enlightenment. Many arhants have powers... many don't. For example one of Buddha's top ten arhant disciple, Mogallana (foremost in supernatural powers), was 'sanctioned' by Buddha to be the only person allowed in his sangha to display supernatural powers in order to teach people. Buddha did not allow use of supernatural powers otherwise (just think about it - Buddhism turning into a circus? Monks levitating in the sky to impress people and collect alms?) Many arhants are not known for their powers.. but some are. I don't think Sariputta showcases powers but is known for his wisdom, for example.

1) It clearly states that "the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.". According to most books I've read about the jhanas, one has to bring to fruition at least the fourth jhana before any supranormal powers are realized.

 

2) Susima's questions about supranormal powers were denied and dismissed by the monks because such questions show that the questioner had missed the point of the Dhammic path entirely. It is like focusing on the icing instead of the whole cake.

It also showcases that some may focus on discernment rather than the cultivation of very deep states of samadhi that results in development of powers. By the power of discernment, one may be liberated.

However, it is well known that Buddha stopped the raging elephant, replicated himself and appeared as 100 Buddhas floating in the sky, and performed other 'miracles'. I've even read that some Buddhists were taking out the miraculous deeds accomplished by Buddha from texts and writings because it promoted wrong influence, took away from pointing to the correct path.

There is no doubt about the powers of Buddha. Buddha have complete mastery of powers.

The fruition of enlightenment, according to the Dalai Lama is omiscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. Those are three very big words..

Omniscience is solely attained by Buddhas. Arhants are not omniscient, however they are awakened and liberated from samsara. Even Bodhisattvas on the bhumi stages are not yet omniscient, but they have undoubtedly realized the nature of mind. Do note that when Dalai Lama talks about 'enlightenment', he is almost always referring to Buddhahood.

 

Yes, there are different levels of awakening.

Edited December 22, 2011 by xabir2005

[jijaji]

His moderators host AYP retreats, yet they have never had the benefit of meeting him in person, nor have they ever received any shaktipat or personal instruction, only through the electronic media.

 

Gee Whiz are you kidding, none of the Moderstors who do the retreats for Yogani/AYP have never meet him?

 

That is just weird and narcissistic, he has so watered down the teachings of Yoga and Meditation he is probably in permanent hiding to save his ass from any repercussions his la la land presentation of sacred teachings may bring him.

 

Edited December 23, 2011 by jijaji

[3bob]

Agree.

 

I have to say there are a bit (only a bit) of truth to the notions that enlightened persons have psychic powers. Why? Because it so happens that majority of the highly enlightened person I personally know... have some mastery of psychic powers. They are able to read minds, know things without asking, see past lives, teach me in dreams, etc etc - really interesting stuff.

 

But to say that this MUST apply for ALL enlightened beings is not necessarily true...

 

All these are just side-effects of meditation practice and samadhi. It is not a must. People who master samadhi or powers may NOT be awakened... (lots of unenlightened people have powers) and those who are awakened may NOT have mastery of samadhi or powers.

 

Not all awakened beings must have mastery of samadhi (as showcased in the conversation with Buddha below)

 

There is a Buddhist sutta (forgive me if its inappropriate in this forum) which explains that this is not necessarily true (that all awakened beings must have powers):

 

What do you know an agreement...

 

Various mind powers are only tools, and may come into play if a true need for their use is merited. Full enlightenment is the truth of an unbreakable power, for all lesser powers or tools and their potential misusers can be broken.

 

Om

[Tibetan_Ice]

Gee Whiz are you kidding, none of the Moderstors who do the retreats for Yogani/AYP have never meet him?

 

That is just weird and narcissistic, he has so watered down the teachings of Yoga and Meditation he is probably in permanent hiding to save his ass from any repercussions his la la land presentation of sacred teachings may bring him.

 

Hi Jijaji

And there are other implications as well.

 

What I was going to ask you is this. Are you familiar with Swami Satyananda Saraswati and his book called "Kundalini Tantra"? Because he has the same last name as Shankaracharya Brahmananda Saraswati, is there any relation to Adi Shankara as far as lineages go, or are these non-related generic last names (Saraswati)?

Also, who is the most respected source for information on the practices of Kriya Yoga and Raja Yoga?

 

 

Thanks.

TI

[jijaji]

The Sannyasins of Sringeri Mutt (one of the four centers established by Shankara) have the surname of Saraswati, Puri and Bharati. Perhaps Brahmananda Saraswati's Guru was associated with Sringiri Mutt I'm not exactly sure.

 

But, according to WIKI

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyananda_Saraswati

 

"Swami Sivananda gave him the name Satyananda and initiated him as a Paramahamsa sannyasin of the Dashnama sannyasa order"

 

In 1924 Swami Sivananda visited Varanasi, Nashik, and then Rishikesh, where he met his guru, Swami Vishwananda Saraswati. Seems reasonable they all are Sannyasins of the Saraswati order.

 

also:

 

Dasanama Sanyasins

 

http://www.hinduism.co.za/hindu_sects.htm

 

Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanat-Kumara and Sanat-Sujata were the four mind-born sons of Lord Brahma. They refused to enter the Pravritti Marga or worldly life and entered the Nivritti Marga or the path of renunciation. The four Kumaras were the pioneers in the path of Sannyasa. Sri Dattatreya also is among the original Sannyasins. The Sannyasins of the present day are all descendants of the four Kumaras, Dattatreya and Sankaracharya.

 

Sri Sankaracharya, regarded as an Avatara of Lord Siva and the eminent exponent of Kevala Advaita philosophy, established four Maths (monasteries) one at Sringeri, another at Dvaraka, a third at Puri and a fourth at Joshi Math in the Himalayas, on the way to Badrinarayana shrine.

 

Sri Sankara had four Sannyasin disciples, viz., Suresvara, Padmapada, Hastamalaka and Totaka. Suresvara was in charge of Sringeri Math, Padmapada was in charge of Puri Math, Hastamalaka was in charge of Dvarka Math and Totaka was in charge of Joshi Math.

 

The Sannyasins of Sringeri Math, the spiritual descendants of Sri Sankara and Suresvacharya, have three names, viz., Sarasvati, Puri and Bharati. The Sannyasins of the Dvaraka Math have two names, viz., Tirtha and Asrama. The Sannyasins of the Puri Math have two names, viz., Vana and Aranya. The Sannyasins of the Joshi Math have three names, viz., Giri, Parvata and Sagara.

 

The Dasanamis worship Lord Siva or Lord Vishnu, and meditate on Nirguna Brahman. The Dandi Sannyasins, who hold staff in their hands, belong to the order of Sri Sankara. Paramhansa Sannyasins do not hold staff. They freely move about as itinerant monks. Avadhutas are naked Sannyasins. They do not keep any property with them.

 

The Sannyasins of the Ramakrishna Mission belong to the order of Sri Sankara. They have the name Puri.

 

Then, there are Akhada Sannyasins, viz., Niranjana Akhada and Jhuni Akhda. They belong to the order of Sri Sankara. They are Dasanamis. They are found in the Uttar Pradesh State only.

 

Rishikesh and Haridwar are colonies for Sannyasins. Varanasi also is among the chief abodes of Sannyasins.

 

cheers

Edited December 24, 2011 by jijaji

[jijaji]

Paul Mason gives this regarding Svami Brahananda Saraswati's Guru on his website;

http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/parampara.html

 

In an issue of a quarterly published by Shanti Sadan, 'Self-Knowledge' (Issue Vol.43 No.3), there is a description of Krishnanandji by Hari Prasad Shastri. In it he tells that Krishnanandaji was a wandering monk of the Saraswati order, thus he was known as Swami Krishnanandaji Saraswati. It is stated that Krishnanandji never answered questions about his life, though he is thought to have come from southern India.

So his having come from South India and having Sannyass surname of Saraswati, shows there is good chance he was associated with Sringeri Mutt which is due south of Mysore IMO.

 

cheers

Edited December 25, 2011 by jijaji