Patanjali's Sutras and Samyama questions

[jijaji]

T.I, I'm not sure if recreating your email exchange with Yogani is productive here, hope this doesn't rub you wrong, just my opinion. I wish you the very best in sorting this out, my advice at this point is to just drop it..walk away and take up some simple pranayama and japa for a while.

 

cheers,

 

jijaji

Edited December 27, 2011 by jijaji

[jijaji]

Usually the case with U-turned, hybrid systems that try and remove the tradition part from the practice. However, there are valid points made in the excerpts that TI has posted. It is a good idea to stick to one system or a couple of complementary systems as long as the core philosophical framework of these are compatible (eg: Yoga and Taoist meditation/Taiji Chuan).

 

And I totally disagree with the incompatibility between Yoga and Intellect comment. The whole purpose of Yoga is to turn the consciousness/body complex into a laboratory where the yoga practitioner is the subject and the researcher both, simultaneously. It is very essential to have an intellectual component to the practice otherwise it becomes dumb calisthenics. The lessons learned in a spiritual realm in Yoga are also applicable in the relative realm of civil life (at work, at home). Yoga should never stop and every instance should become a living embodiment of the Yoga practice.

 

imho, it is not possible to properly enter dhyana before the intellectual turmoil created by stillness is not resolved. Samadhi is out of the question in such a case.

 

very good points dwai, thank you!

 

 

[guruyoga]

And I totally disagree with the incompatibility between Yoga and Intellect comment.

 

Absolutely! Anyone who tells you to stop intellectual analysis outright is doing a great disservice. There is a time for intellectual analysis and there is one for dropping it and letting go, both have their equal share of importance.

 

Ajnana or ignorance, according to the Tantras, is said to be of two kinds: Paurusha and Bauddha. Paurusha, which is inherent in most, causes one to be unaware of the true nature of oneself. Bauddha, on the other hand, is the ignorance that shrouds the intellect and establishes one in a sense of duality. Paurusha Ajnana is overcome by Diksha or Shaktipat and subsequent practice - yoga, dhyana, pranayama, mantra whatever may be the case. Bauddha Ajnana of intellectual ignorance is resolved only through study of scriptures, analysis, thinking and inquiry. Bauddha Jnana (intellectual knowledge) which resolves Bauddha Ajnana is attained through the intellect and Paurusha Jnana which combats Paurusha Ajnana through practice. Both go hand in hand, and ignoring either aspect will not give one the desired results.

 

It is needless to say that Paurusha Jnana developed through practice is of great importance. What gets overlooked, especially by those who profess "let go" at the wrong place and wrong sequence and as a single medicine for all woes, is Bauddha Jnana or the refinement of the intellect. There is always the risk of Paurusha Jnana fading away, but Bauddha Jnana or a refined intellect will firmly hold Paurusha Jnana (developed through practice), in place. Both are thus necessarily complimentary to each other and not contradictory in any sense.

[3bob]

Hehe, how could anyone 'get' someone like that?

 

This is a subject I am very Interested in. There may be different levels of Enlightenment in different schools, but wouldn't most schools have Omniscience as automatic in the Higher stages of Enlightenment? In KS for instance a Yogi that passes through Vidya Kanchuka, is Omniscient...

 

Also many people have short, before enlightenment experiences of Omniscience or something close to it...

I for instance occasionally in mystical Union have short experiences of something I have been thinking of lately as Local Omniscience.

I call it 'local' because it tends to be relative to where my attention goes.

In other words I do not literally know everything, from every time, in every world, all at once.

But So far it has never been wrong, and when I have thought about a person in this state, I have got to 'know' all kinds of things about them, including accurately seeing moments from their past...

 

What do other Traditions have to say about such experiences?

 

Blessings

 

I don't know about all this... lol, "neti, neti".

[jijaji]

What I find disturbing is how at AYP they all quote Yogani like he is scripture, a person has any question it is generally answered with a quote from Yogani..like they are quoting Bhagavad Gita or something. They cannot give reference to scripture, but to what Yogani (their Vyasa) has said..

 

very bizzare

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

T.I.,

 

I am sorry for any pain you are having over this, surely there is some from having been practicing this for 4 years and still lacking clarification on certain things. IMO Yogani would serve his audience better if he were to openly tell how he came to use and know that the IAM mantra is all he says it is, his experiments, failures.

 

It is one of the main subjects there over and over and over and so many people have problems and questions even after practicing for years, resulting in headaches, so called overload and confusion. There is never a direct answer about the IAM mantra, it's always (keep practicing) and you will know that which we speak of here.

 

 

Hi Jijaji

Don't be sorry! But that's nice of you just the same.

 

Here is another example of Yogani's teachings:

1) He says the end of the sushumna is actually through the tunnel at the brows, unlike conventional teachings which states that the sushumna goes straight out of the top of the head.

2) He says that the star is heaven and that you don't actually do anything with it!

 

link: http://www.aypsite.org/92.html

On seeing the star, it is a natural outcome of purifying the sushumna (spinal nerve) and opening the third eye. It was mentioned in the lesson on yoni mudra kumbhaka that the attention will sooner or later be drawn out beyond the point between the eyebrows. This is an extension of the sushumna beyond the body. At the end of the sushumna are the infinite realms of bright white light. They are seen as a bright star in the beginning. The colors ringed around the star are the inside of the sushumna. You are looking out from the inside, so you are seeing the inside of the sushumna in your body, and the end of the sushumna off in the distance, which is the star. You are looking through the tunnel of the sushumna, seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel," as they say. Inside the tunnel, we are literally a rainbow of light, beginning with dark red at the bottom and ending with blue and violet at the top. You have heard the expression, "She has a heart of gold." Well, we all have hearts of gold. We just need some housecleaning to see it. That is the outer ring you are seeing.

...

 

What are we to do with this star when we see it, and a rising awareness of the sushumna tunnel that often goes with it? It is an important question you raise. Yes, we are naturally attracted to the star. It is "heaven." It is where we go when we die. Reports of the tunnel and white light are common among those who have had a near death experience. The tunnel is the way by which we have come into this earthly existence as well. Now you can see why spinal breathing is so important in our practice. We are clearing our highway to heaven.

 

But it isn't time to leave yet! Therein lies the answer to the question: What do we do about the star? You will get different answers from different people on this question. There is a lot of hub-bub about it.

 

The answer in these lessons is, we don't do much with the star. We let the experience of it evolve naturally, just as we do with everything coming up as a result of our practices. As the star comes up we regard it as any other part of our inner workings and go back to the practice we are doing. It is, after all, just another feature of our spiritual anatomy, like nadis, chakras, and the like. Everything in heaven and earth is contained within us. We don't have to go anywhere to be what we already are. If our ecstasy inside or outside practices draws us into the star, then this is just fine. Whatever happens there is part of our experience of divine expansion. If our ecstasy draws us elsewhere in our spiritual anatomy, that is fine too. If we are in practices, we easily favor the practice we are doing, like always. We don't get all hung up on this or that experience that may come up. If we are not in practices and we see something happening in our spiritual anatomy -- let's enjoy! In these lessons we are yogis and yoginis first, and tourists second. It is fine to enjoy the scenery when we are outside practices. There will be plenty for us to see. While inside practices, we stick to the easy job of favoring the practice we are doing.

 

To AYP, it is all scenery. To other systems of teachings, the star is milestone, a goal, something to seek, it is not just scenery.

For example, in Saraswati's book called "Kundalini Tantra" he has written about The Kriya Yoga Practices which culminate into the realization that the star is the doorway to the causal self.

Chapter 14

The Kriya Yoga Practices

By tradition there are a total of 76 kundalini kriyas of kriya yoga. We present the

following 20 main practices, which are sufficient for the daily practice of any sincere

sadhaka.

The practices are divided into three groups: those which induce pratyahara, those

which induce dharana, and those which induce dhyana. It should be noted that these three

states are actually a continuity of evolution, that is, the consciousness flows from one to

the next without any apparent dividing point - so these practices should be done in an

unbroken sequence. Of course, from the first day, the practice of these kriyas will not

necessarily lead to such exalted states of awareness, but if they are practised properly

with correct guidance, by an aspirant who is ready for them, then most likely, one day

they will. It will be at that stage that the constant, unbroken progression of awareness will

become essential.

Again, there is a reference to "the constant, unbroken progression of awareness", as in Patanjali's Sutras..

The last of the main Kriyas presented in Saraswati's book say this:

No.19: Linga sanchalana (astral conduction)

Remain still in your stiffened asana with the eyes closed. Due to the stiffness of your

body, your breathing will have automatically become ujjayi breathing, and khechari

mudra will have been formed. Be totally aware of your breathing. You will notice that

with each inhalation your body seems to be expanding. And with each exhalation your

body appears to be contracting. It is peculiar though, because your physical body is not

moving; it is still and as stiff as a statue. It is your astral body that you experience

expanding and contracting. As you observe this contraction and expansion process, it will

gradually become more and more pronounced. After some time you will begin to lose

awareness of the physical body, and you will only be observing the astral body directly.

However, the degree of contraction will become more pronounced. Eventually you will

reach a stage where, on contraction, the astral body reduces to a single point of light.

When this occurs, discontinue the kriya immediately and go on to the next.

THE PRACTICE OF DHYANA

No. 20: Dhyana (meditation)

You have realized your astral body as a single point of light. Now look closer at that

point of light and you will see it take the form of a golden egg. As you watch this golden

egg, it will begin to expand. The golden egg is luminous and glowing intensely; however,

it does not give off any rays of light. As the golden egg becomes larger, it will begin to

take on the same shape as that of your astral and physical bodies. This form, however, is

not a material or even a subtle form. This form is glowing light. It is your causal self.

 

So, here is another teaching that is saying that the star is a goal, that the main kriyas are designed to produce this experience and realization. And, in this final step, the final practice of Saraswati's book, he instructs dhyana on the star. Now, how can that be "just scenery"? How many AYP practitioners have seen the star, yet, because Yogani doesn't put any emphasis on it, simply ignored it and mechanically continued their practices?

 

I have seen the lighted filaments like a film pulsing outwards and inwards in rhythm with the breath. I have seen the light many times. Two weeks ago, after switching to the AUM mantra with sustained concentration (instead of effortlessly letting go), it appeared as a very bright small light towards the end my meditations. During the next day's meditations, it was bigger and brighter. On the third day, the star was bigger than me, so bright and clear, with dark blue around the rays, and so close!

I have seen the golden egg too. I have gone inside the egg! But it wasn't when I was doing AYP practices. It was when I was turning my attention back towards the source during meditations, back towards "who was watching" with all my effort and concentration.

 

So, technique and understanding in practice is everything. Experiences count and are not just scenery.

If something is not working, it is your right and duty to find out why. Don't let them tell you that the benefits of yoga are a better life living in the world. Learn to think for yourself, experiment, have fun. Just don't follow someone's water-downed misguided teachings blindly.. And anytime someone tells you to quit analyzing, to shut up and just do the practices, for years and and years and ignore the scenery, run!

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Dwai and GuruYoga

Thank you so much for your comments. It is so nice to hear supportive statements that Knowledge and Understanding play a crucial role in the skillful path of spiritual development.

 

 

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

[3bob]

Hi Jijaji

Anyone who is left in AYP is either a parrot or a brown-noser, or just joined. I have seen it so many times before.. A new member comes into the forum, starts giving their own advice and practices, then they mysteriously start to praise the AYP practices. Then, some say "goodbye" or just disappear, leaving conversations uncomplete.

 

I once thought that AYP supported universal yoga, as Yogani so boldy professes, but I learnt the hard way. In one of my posts to a 'newcomer', I put in a link about the guru Papaji showing someone their Self, because the newcomer had experienced the light and bliss and wanted to know what it was.

 

Here is the link:

 

Well, my post was deleted, I was told that I should not be communicating with newcomers and I was banned from posting to two categories as punishment.

 

Yogani wrote this in one of his "lessons":

 

 

How can bhakti, which is love of God, become locked in a co-dependant relationship?

Are Christians locked in a co-dependant relationship with Jesus? Are the billion Buddhists not being spiritually progressive from their devotion to Buddha?

 

And then, how can Yogani say that it is about "our relationship with knowledge", after writing that "Unfortunately, intellectual intelligence counts for nothing in yoga. In fact, it is a liability, as we have been discussing." ?

 

Here is Yogani's answer to why he won't be anyone's guru, yet that is how he behaves:

link: http://www.aypsite.org/389.html

 

 

And then, his point of view is "largely western science"? How can you do that without intellect?

And, note, he is slickly calling his amalgamation of customized practices, and the attempted marriage of TM with Kriya practices, "sacred knowledge".

 

You know, I would give my eye-teeth to meet the Gnani Purush, or a true Guru in person. I see no crime in that. It would probably help me spiritually evolve much faster than sitting in my room doing practices..

 

Show me my Self!

 

TI

 

Meet True guru, meet Self - the same. And still keep teeth.

Edited December 29, 2011 by 3bob

[jijaji]

T.I.,

 

Just want you to know I'm out of the discussion, as I said a few posts back...just drop it, walk away and take up some other practice, after reading this all over again and going through your posts at AYP, I have to say you ARE spending too much time on your analysis here borderline negativity and I think it is counterproductive.

 

I am sorry I got pulled into this thread, AYP is what it is, Yogani is a sincere person even if he has taken things and approached them differently and I do believe his teaching have benefited people.

 

I am just done with this endless analysis and wish you the best in one day sorting it out T.I.

 

my apologies to all I may have offended here

 

 

peace

[MetalNun]

Hi! I'm new here and as I said in the Lobby, I probably shouldn't even get involved in this discussion because I already spend way too much time online in discussions that may well be pointless. However, I noticed that a couple of my friends (T.I. and Jeff) are on here and I wanted to comment on this thread, for what it's worth.

 

Re: AYP. T.I., you know I love you dearly as a brother in Christ and a yogi, and I have supported you at the AYP forum. So now, to be fair, I would like to put in a good word for AYP.

 

I am still at AYP and neither a "parrot or a brown-noser, or just joined." I did join in July so ok, relatively new there. I've been doing yoga for 35 years, with SRF/kriya as my core practice but have studied various other systems, and since May of this year, primarily Heart of Yoga. I originally went to AYP for specific technical information on tantra, in which I was trained but my male partner was not, and I needed help teaching him. I was very impressed with the huge amount of information available at AYP, some of which I was suprised I had never before found anywhere else despite my many years of study and practice. I have picked up a few useful techniques there.

 

More importantly, however, is the wonderful sangha into which I was welcomed with open arms by everyone (including T.I. - thanks, bro!). I have never experienced so much love, openness and acceptance anywhere else (including HOY). I was allowed to post comments/views which were not within AYP guidelines (this was before I knew how the forum works) and nobody censored me other than to say, "that's very interesting, but here at AYP we use this approach..." Much to my surprise, I was eventually asked to become a leader/ contact person for AYP despite the fact that I practice and teach a different system (although there is a good deal of overlap, as with most yoga traditions).

 

I'm not going to go into all the discrepancies/technical points discussed above because I think you guys have already analyzed them to death. But, in general: Based on my training and experience I would say that AYP is a good system that probably "works." It has certainly worked for many people I have met there. How can you tell if a system "works"? Both by your internal subjective experience of your spiritual growth, AND its effect on your daily life in the world and how you treat "others" [or, other manifestations of the One].

 

Does AYP work for everybody? No. I don't think there is any one system that does because we are all different. Is AYP consistent with other yoga traditions? To a large extent, yes. Completely? Of course not, because no two systems are. If you want to get nit-picky you can find methodological and philosophical discrepancies between closely related systems and often even within a given system. Should we analyze those discrepancies? Sure, if you want. Personally I find that gets old after a while. The intellect certainly has its place on the spiritual path, but can become a trap, especially for the brightest among us.

 

No system is perfect. Find something that feels right to you and DO it. For me personally, SRF only got me partway There; then when I discovered HOY everything suddenly "clicked." But I am not putting down SRF, because it definitely laid the groundwork for HOY despite the fact that some of their techniques and philosophies are quite different or even opposite.

 

As for the AYP forum rules, their purpose is simply to maintain the coherence of AYP as a system and to avoid confusing newbies; this is why "Other Systems" are discussed in a separate part of the forum. (I did not know this when I originally posted about HOY techniques but in retrospect I'm surprised I was not censored.)

 

If anybody is interested I would recommend you visit AYP and check it out yourself. (www.aypsite.org) Namaste.

[kundalini]

theres lightness sutra in there

Edited March 3, 2012 by kundalini

[Tibetan_Ice]

T.I.,

 

Just want you to know I'm out of the discussion, as I said a few posts back...just drop it, walk away and take up some other practice, after reading this all over again and going through your posts at AYP, I have to say you ARE spending too much time on your analysis here borderline negativity and I think it is counterproductive.

 

I am sorry I got pulled into this thread, AYP is what it is, Yogani is a sincere person even if he has taken things and approached them differently and I do believe his teaching have benefited people.

 

I am just done with this endless analysis and wish you the best in one day sorting it out T.I.

 

my apologies to all I may have offended here

 

 

peace

Hi Jijaji

I'm sorry you feel that way. I have found your contributions most enlightening.

 

If I walk away, then countless other people will fall prey to the same trap that I fell into.

 

Unfortunately, sincerity does not compensate for lack of scholarship and proper understanding.

 

Ever hear the expression, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

 

If a person is going to invent their own yoga, then they have an obligation to tell people that that is what they are doing, not try to disguise it so that it is more appealing to the masses.

 

If you feel that your posts are offending someone, then go back and delete them, or edit out the content.

 

But thanks for your contributions.

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi MetalNun

Please do not take this reply personally. In it I am addressing your comments and it in no way reflects upon my belief that you are an accomplished lady of the heart.

 

...

Much to my surprise, I was eventually asked to become a leader/ contact person for AYP despite the fact that I practice and teach a different system (although there is a good deal of overlap, as with most yoga traditions).

Yes, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any requirement or qualification for becoming an AYP leader. What does that tell you? You know, the first I went for an AYP Satsang, I was offered a beer before the meditation. Afterwards, it was made very clear to me that potent drugs were available, were being kept in the home. Also, a reliable source told me that they attended an AYP retreat, and that around 50% of the people attending were drinking alcohol. To me, alcohol and spiritualism don't mix. It also tells me that AYP doesn't have any control or standards when it comes to their retreats.. But I'm sure everyone had a great time..

 

Does AYP work for everybody? No. I don't think there is any one system that does because we are all different. Is AYP consistent with other yoga traditions? To a large extent, yes. Completely? Of course not, because no two systems are. If you want to get nit-picky you can find methodological and philosophical discrepancies between closely related systems and often even within a given system.

 

First off, I've never said that AYP doesn't work. That was never the question. Yogani has thrown together some very powerful practices from various sources. Just sambhavi mudra alone can produce astounding results, not only visions but activate kundalini and produce kriyas. The mudras and bhandas are very powerful in their own right. Just slowing the breathing down to the point where it incurs oxygen deprivation and lack of prana is also very very powerful, as in Spinal Breathing. You have to really know what you are doing so that you don't irevocably damage yourself.. What I am concerned about is, among the many other things that I've listed, that when someone creates their own brand of yoga by combining separate teachings, without a correct understanding of the teachings, and in doing so they customize practices along the way, it either renders the practices ineffective, or so powerful that they damage the practioner.

 

I ask you this, have you ever heard of TM style mantra meditation being combined with Kriya Yoga practices? What I am familiar with, for meditation in Kriya Yoga, is the So Ham, or the Hong Sau techniques, or Dhyan Yogi's AUM meditation and they all follow the breath. Following the breath is a good thing because on the attentive exhale, the body can rid itself of excess energy. When you practice Kriya yoga and then follow it by TM style mantra meditation, isn't there a risk that you'll take the excess prana you've accumulated and fry your etheric, astral and mental bodies?

 

Should we analyze those discrepancies? Sure, if you want. Personally I find that gets old after a while. The intellect certainly has its place on the spiritual path, but can become a trap, especially for the brightest among us.

 

Analysis never gets old. It is how we learn. It leads to knowledge. If we have experiences and we don't analyze and understand, nothing is gained. Most all scientific discoveries and true knowledge throughout history have been discovered by the intellect. Despite what most people think, yoga has it's natural truths too, they only have to be discovered.

 

As for the AYP forum rules, their purpose is simply to maintain the coherence of AYP as a system and to avoid confusing newbies; this is why "Other Systems" are discussed in a separate part of the forum.

 

You know, AYP is lacking in telling people what the rules are. I didn't find out that I couldn't delete my posts or edit them until this summer. When I inquired about it, Yogani had told me that they had changed the rules two years ago, yet AYP was still adverstising that you edit and delete your posts anytime. Even then, it took some undercover work to get AYP to change that particular advertising, as it was not done when I mentioned it. I still can't edit or delete my posts from prior to 2 weeks ago but at least AYP is being up front about that now, if you want to consider this as being up front:

 

You may edit or delete your own posts within the time limit set for each forum category. These may vary from no edit period to weeks, months, or unlimited, depending on decisions made by the forum Administrators. You can determine if an edit period is open by going to the topic where the post to be edited or deleted is located and you will see an edit or delete icon () on the line that begins "posted on...". The icons will not appear if the edit period is closed. If the edit period is open, you can click on an icon to edit or delete the post. No one else can edit your post, except for a forum Moderator or forum Administrator. A note is generated at the bottom of each edited post displaying when and by whom the post was edited.A note is generated at the bottom of each edited post displaying when and by whom the post was edited.

 

If the rules at AYP are that older members should not post to newbies, that all posts to newbies must support the AYP teachings, then that is what AYP should advertise. Where in AYP does it say that? Where are all these rules posted? Seems to me that the rules are only pulled out and used as justification to ban members when they become overly inquisitive or start exhibiting unwanted behaviour. Now is that fair and honest?

 

 

TI

[MetalNun]

My Dear T.I.,

I don't know how to navigate this forum yet so I hope I can make this reply look right; bear with me.

 

"Yes, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any requirement or qualification for becoming an AYP leader."

 

Yes, the fact that they invited ME to be a leader obviously proves that they have NO standards, LOL!!

 

"You know, the first I went for an AYP Satsang, I was offered a beer before the meditation. Afterwards, it was made very clear to me that potent drugs were available, were being kept in the home."

Wow, they provide alcohol AND potent drugs?! Excellent! I did not know that. I'm REALLY looking forward to the retreat now!

 

"First off, I've never said that AYP doesn't work."

Yeah, I think you did. I'm pretty sure I recall you saying on at least one occasion that you had been practicing it for 4 years and it didn't Enlighten you and that was your main complaint.

 

"What I am concerned about is, among the many other things that I've listed, that when someone creates their own brand of yoga by combining separate teachings, without a correct understanding of the teachings, and in doing so they customize practices along the way, it either renders the practices ineffective, or so powerful that they damage the practioner.

 

I ask you this, have you ever heard of TM style mantra meditation being combined with Kriya Yoga practices? ... isn't there a risk that you'll take the excess prana you've accumulated and fry your etheric, astral and mental bodies?"

 

I understand your concern and I think it is potentially valid. But, I have heard of all manner of different practices being combined in questionable ways by various people including YOU! and you have not spontaneously combusted yet. Not that I should talk. When I was in SRF I combined kriya with all kinds of forbidden stuff, including tantra, LSD and mushrooms, LOL! Yes, any and all of the above can be dangerous. Any time you mess with practices involving kundalini (even in a well-established ancient tradition) there is a potential risk. It hasn't stopped us yet, has it? If you were really THAT concerned you wouldn't have been combining AYP practices with the bzillion other fascinating techniques you described in your wonderful account there... This is why Yogani cautions repeatedly about "self-pacing" and not overdoing it. But like I said, if anybody was going to be injured by combining different techniques, you and I would both have gone up in flames years ago, my friend.

 

"Analysis never gets old. It is how we learn. It leads to knowledge. If we have experiences and we don't analyze and understand, nothing is gained."

Whatever. As I said, the intellect has its place. But it is a well known fact that it can be a trap, too. Go for it. Have fun. Knock yourself out.

 

"You know, AYP is lacking in telling people what the rules are. I didn't find out that I couldn't delete my posts or edit them until this summer."

Agreed. I did mention this to Yogani. But as I already told you, if you really need something deleted or edited for a good reason, the moderators can do it for you. I offered to have it done for you and you did not take me up on it. Personally I think your posts are wonderful and I wouldn't bother deleting them or editing them one bit if I was you.

 

"Seems to me that the rules are only pulled out and used as justification to ban members when they become overly inquisitive or start exhibiting unwanted behaviour. Now is that fair and honest?"

Maybe not. But it's a private forum. I've been thrown out of a private drinking establishment before for "unwanted behaviour" and I didn't think that was fair, either, but the owner of the bar disagreed.

 

Much love to you, bro! Wishing you all the best in 2012. I will be sending you an email shortly with a cool new mantra my teacher gave me that I know you will love.

 

- MetalNun

[CarsonZi]

Hi TI

 

You know, the first I went for an AYP Satsang, I was offered a beer before the meditation.

 

You sure are good at putting a specific "slant" on things! Hahaha. The "Satsang" you went to, was at my house (in 2008), and there were literally only 3 of us there including you and myself, and it was just us getting together to meditate. No "Satsang" involved. I offered you a beer (as well as a water, juice or tea if I remember correctly, it was so long ago I can't remember for sure if I even offered you a beer) as a mere courtesy, not as peer pressure. I do the same to anyone who comes into my home, whether they are coming for a meditation or for dinner... just a courtesy. AND, as many of the Taobums who've been around for a while may remember, back then (2008) I was still downdosing off of the methadone program and using marijuana regularly, so, offering someone a beer didn't seem like a big deal (it's not like I offered you some of my methadone). Just a formality. Oh, and just for the record, when you came over to meditate at my house I wasn't an "AYP Leader," I was just a guy opening his home to others who wanted to do AYP Deep Meditation with a few other people.

 

Afterwards, it was made very clear to me that potent drugs were available, were being kept in the home.

 

Again, as many of the older Taobums members may remember, I was an active hallucinogen user for well over a decade. And I have had a large collection of Alexander Shulgin's psychoactive phenethylamines and tryptamines in my house for years.... still do in fact as throwing them in the garbage may result in some getting into an unsuspecting person or animal's system accidentally (through a variety of means). At no time did I ever OFFER you drugs, nor suggest to you that if you wanted them that I would make them available to you. Suggesting otherwise is a complete lie.

 

Also, a reliable source told me that they attended an AYP retreat, and that around 50% of the people attending were drinking alcohol.

 

Speaking of lying, this ^ is another. I have taught 6 AYP retreats over the past year or so and there has not once EVER been ANYONE who has drank alcohol during the retreat. There have been dinners *after* a retreat where some of the attendees may have had a beer or a glass of wine, but what someone does during their own time is of no consequence to me or to AYP. Hell, if someone *really* wanted to drink even while on an AYP retreat, if they had it (it's never been an option at any of the retreat centers I've taught at), they are more then welcome to do as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right to get as much from the retreat as they can.

 

It also tells me that AYP doesn't have any control or standards when it comes to their retreats.. But I'm sure everyone had a great time..

 

Well, considering you've never been to an AYP retreat, I don't think you are qualified to comment on the quality control standards AYP or it's leaders have. But you're right, everyone *does* have a great time!

 

Anyway, I think you should go get a job at a mass media outlet somewhere TI... your ability to "put a specific spin" on things is really really incredible and I think you would do very good in that kind of an environment. And, while you're in the city looking for that job why don't you come over again and have a meditation with me! I promise I won't offer you a beer this time, and I'll put my box of leftover "goodies" in the shed too.

 

Love!

Carson

[Tibetan_Ice]

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi CarsonZi

Just for clarification here:

 

 

At no time did I ever OFFER you drugs, nor suggest to you that if you wanted them that I would make them available to you. Suggesting otherwise is a complete lie.

As I recall, you did offer to show them to me, which I declined. Sorry, I interpreted that as a slippery slope that might have lead to more than just looking.

 

Speaking of lying, this ^ is another. I have taught 6 AYP retreats over the past year or so and there has not once EVER been ANYONE who has drank alcohol during the retreat. There have been dinners *after* a retreat where some of the attendees may have had a beer or a glass of wine, but what someone does during their own time is of no consequence to me or to AYP. Hell, if someone *really* wanted to drink even while on an AYP retreat, if they had it (it's never been an option at any of the retreat centers I've taught at), they are more then welcome to do as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right to get as much from the retreat as they can.

 

 

Here is what I have. The dinner was before the retreat. I've wiped out the names and a few sentences. :

The dinner was nice and friendly. Most of the people seemed to know each other from past retreats. The discussion was 60% AYP - 40% other stuff. Talking about XXXXX's announcement was the main ice breaker. The other stuff consisted mostly around tattoos and drug usage relative to awareness. Lot of support for mushrooms. Little discussion on politics. Half of the people drank alcohol.

 

You know, I used to be a drug addict too. It kind of goes hand in hand with being a musician and growing up in the 70's. I'm kind of sensitive to all of that. I'm so happy I am not into that anymore and have not had a drink or any kind of recreational drug for over 35 years now. Spirituality and drugs don't mix well.

 

Anyway, I think you should go get a job at a mass media outlet somewhere TI... your ability to "put a specific spin" on things is really really incredible and I think you would do very good in that kind of an environment. And, while you're in the city looking for that job why don't you come over again and have a meditation with me! I promise I won't offer you a beer this time, and I'll put my box of leftover "goodies" in the shed too.

 

Love!

Carson

You know, you posted something on the forum a month ago about being stoned while driving, how you passed a police car and threw out half a joint. Then you had some realizations.. remember? I was going to comment on the forum but I knew it would get banned.

 

So here it is now:

I thought to myself, here is an AYP leader, driving in the city stoned.

You are not doing anyone a service by talking about being high while driving, considering your position at AYP. I realize that Yoga saved your life and that you managed to quit hard drugs and that is great. Truly. But when I read your post, it made me wonder, if yoga is so good, why do you need to smoke pot? Is yoga just another trip for you? At one point I also considered how nice it would be to hit the knives again and then meditate. But I want the real thing, not some temporary revelation induced by a chemical high and the destruction of the intricate network of etheric pathways, nadis and brain cells. So, your post does have an influence on people, especially on old drug addicts. People will judge you by what you do, not by what you say. It is important to set a good example. Integrity is a big word.

 

Now I know you have a great capacity for revealing too much despite the consequences, as I do. It is a bad combination. I would suggest that perhaps we should just drop this conversation as I have little interest in picking through every item in the garbage dump.

 

Sincerely, I wish you all the best in your quest.

May God bless you and keep you safe.

 

TI

[jijaji]

[CarsonZi]

Hi TI

 

As I recall, you did offer to show them to me, which I declined. Sorry, I interpreted that as a slippery slope that might have lead to more than just looking.

 

Interpretation is a funny thing. So is memory.

 

Here is what I have. The dinner was before the retreat. I've wiped out the names and a few sentences. :

You know, I used to be a drug addict too. It kind of goes hand in hand with being a musician and growing up in the 70's. I'm kind of sensitive to all of that. I'm so happy I am not into that anymore and have not had a drink or any kind of recreational drug for over 35 years now. Spirituality and drugs don't mix well.

 

Sounds about right. I remember being at a pre-retreat dinner with a bunch of fellow AYPers all enjoying some homecooked Indian food, a few desserts and some great company. There were all kinds of beverages available, some with alcohol, most without. This dinner had nothing to do with "AYP" and it was just a group of friends getting together for dinner before going to a retreat. So lets drop the insinuations that there was any drinking, by anyone, at an AYP retreat. Didn't happen. As far as trying to tie Yogani and/or the AYP system, (or AYP practitioners in general really) to recommending alcohol or drugs, well, that's a pretty hard sell considering Yogani takes a pretty firm public stance on it: http://www.aypsite.org/307.html

 

You know, you posted something on the forum a month ago about being stoned while driving, how you passed a police car and threw out half a joint. Then you had some realizations.. remember?

 

Yup I remember ( http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10733 ). The "realization" took place *before* the Checkstop incident, but, no-matter.....

 

I was going to comment on the forum but I knew it would get banned.

 

If you mean the comment would have been rejected, it may have been, it may not have been. I personally would have had no problem with you posting the below in that thread. If you meant that *you* would have been banned for the below comment, I can assure you that would not have happened. No one has ever been banned for a single comment, and I can promise that you would not have been the first.

 

So here it is now:

I thought to myself, here is an AYP leader, driving in the city stoned.

You are not doing anyone a service by talking about being high while driving, considering your position at AYP.

 

The reason I mentioned I was stoned was because I wanted to talk about the shift that had happened (which was to embody a knowing/seeing that all thought/emotion/sensations/etc are "objects" separate from "myself") but I wanted to be upfront about the catalyst for the event. Doesn't do anyone a service to lie by omission about that in my opinion. And, I have no "position" at AYP so I didn't feel like I was in jeopardy of tarnishing AYP's good name by sharing that I will still on occasion smoke pot. I'm not on any payroll for AYP, when I lead AYP retreats I only ask that my expenses are paid and that is done by the retreat organizer not AYP. And although I do teach the AYP system in a few yoga studios I'm paid by the studios not by AYP. And I'm upfront with everyone who is curious about my past and my current activities both in my classes and at the studio. I don't feel any desire to hide from anyone.

 

continued below.....

Edited January 2, 2012 by CarsonZi

[CarsonZi]

continued....

 

I realize that Yoga saved your life and that you managed to quit hard drugs and that is great. Truly. But when I read your post, it made me wonder, if yoga is so good, why do you need to smoke pot?

 

I don't *need* to smoke pot and I never said I did. In fact, if you read my post linked above, I say;

"....I went to a friend's house and purchased a single joint to smoke on my way home. I have the next few evenings off from teaching classes and I sometimes like to celebrate a successful retreat by partaking of "the herb.""

The choice to smoke pot was for me, a celebration of a successful retreat and of Life in general. I rarely smoke anymore as some external conditions have to be just right in order for me to imbibe, but the situation was just right at that time so I made the decision to smoke. This was done with a similar attitude as a Catholic/Christian would have when partaking of the sacrament/communion (which in many churches is alcoholic FYI ). I'm conscious of the fact that I have a personal tendency towards enjoying the effects of smoking pot, just the same way that you are aware of the fact that you have a personal tendency towards enjoying the effects of cigarettes. I find that as long as I approach marijuana use with what I would determine as "right intention" (along with severe moderation), I don't have any issues with having a smoke (personally). We each have our own tendencies and things we enjoy. Bringing awareness to these tendencies is the first step towards being able to release them completely. This is just my opinion.

 

Is yoga just another trip for you?

 

Yoga to me is a set of tools that when utilized in an effective, stable and consistent way, create fertile ground for the realization of our fullest potential as human beings. It is not a trip for me. For me yoga is a way of life.... but not a way to escape life. So I do my yoga practices, twice a day, and then go do whatever it is that I am inclined to do. Which on occasion includes having a beer or smoking a joint if the situation feels right.

 

At one point I also considered how nice it would be to hit the knives again and then meditate. But I want the real thing, not some temporary revelation induced by a chemical high and the destruction of the intricate network of etheric pathways, nadis and brain cells.

 

Personally, I use marijuana for a few different reasons, but I personally never use it to enhance meditation (it makes me waaaaaay too sensitive to the internal energies to engage in any formal practices). The main reason I use marijuana is to induce a state of "forced inquiry." When I get stoned I am put into a state of mind where, when I look at myself (through a variety of techniques) I see "ego pockets" that I have previously been unconscious to. Then, I spend the next while working on loosening those pockets (again through a variety of techniques) and eventually releasing them completely. The only ill effects I find from the occasional use of marijuana is that if it is smoked late in the evening it can be challenging to get up the next morning for my practices (I sometimes just want to sleep). Other than that, it seems quite beneficial (for me) if I use it with awareness and proper intention and in moderation. To each their own right?

 

So, your post does have an influence on people, especially on old drug addicts.

 

So does walking down specific streets, seeing certain movies/commercials, and hanging around with certain friends, etc etc etc. Eventually we have to take responsibility for our own lives.

 

People will judge you by what you do, not by what you say. It is important to set a good example. Integrity is a big word.

 

I don't really care much about how people judge me (hence my ability to be brutally honest about myself with others). To me, it's all about how I feel about *myself*. I live my life based on my own set of values, not someone else's (this is why religion didn't work for me and part of the reason why AYP does). Think what you want about me TI, but ultimately, how I live and conduct my life is really only my business, not yours, not AYP's. One day you are going to have to point that laser at yourself and judge yourself using the same ruler you are using on everyone else.

 

Now I know you have a great capacity for revealing too much despite the consequences, as I do. It is a bad combination. I would suggest that perhaps we should just drop this conversation as I have little interest in picking through every item in the garbage dump.

 

Not sure exactly what you mean by that, but sure. Happy to drop it whenever you wish.

 

Love!

Carson

[MetalNun]

Dear T.I.,

[Once again, I do not know the correct way to selectively quote parts of a post, so I'm improvising, using bold for your words.]

 

Again, please do not take these comments personally. I am simply stating my opinions from my point of view.

I don't take anything personally, dear. Why would I? It's quite alright.

 

You know what I mean. I have great respect for anyone who has done 30 years of kriya and has opened the heart chakra. But, you had to pass a certain period of time learning the HOY practices and techniques before Mark would qualify you as fit to be a HOY teacher.

 

Actually Mark accepted me as a HOY teacher at the end of the first day we spent together after he interrogated me and witnessed my practice. He said I was a jivamukti, and, "You are just here for the meeting, you already have the teaching."

 

Did you even finish reading all of AYP's books and all of the lessons? It took me months. Surely, wouldn't if be wise to read them all with discernment before accepting to become a 'leader'?

 

No, I have not read the books, which I understand are collections of the lessons, of which I have read most if not all. When invited to be a leader, I actually told them I was not qualified but they seemed to think otherwise for some reason, and they suggested that I could help out to whatever extent I felt comfortable, which seems like a workable plan. I would be happy to attend the retreat in silence and contribute just by Being in meditation, if there was any concern as to my qualifications to "teach" AYP methods per se.

 

Have you finished reading "The Secrets of Wilder"? Did you find it strange that in "The Secrets of Wilder", the fictional book which is so often referred to as being "Yogani's autobiography" (yet there is no proof), that John Wilder received the empowerment of the "I AM" mantra in a form of shaktipat from Christi Jensen, and then throughout the book continues to 'tap people on the chest' so as to perform the empowerment of the mantra and give a transmission, yet in AYP there is no transmission for the mantra, or shaktipat let alone personal contact with the author? It is all a slick trap. First you read "The Secrets of Wilder" and are seduced by the whole yoga/mystical/sexual aura. Then, when you start to read all the AYP lessons, and you start to wonder what happened to shaktipat, empowerment of the mantra, all the magical powers like floating in the air, healing people.. etc..

 

I'm not quite finished with the book yet and yes, it is quite seductive! But as far as I can determine, it's actually a NOVEL (i.e., fiction).

 

You know, it is important to be serious sometimes. You and I both know the ill effects of drugs and alcohol. Enough said.

 

Actually my experiences with psychedelics many, many years ago [which, please note, I am NOT recommending to anybody!] were overwhelmingly positive and motivated me to seriously pursue and deepen my spiritual practice. I don't have any use for them nowadays because I am nearly continually in a state that I previously used them to temporarily obtain - the clarity, the Oneness, the freedom, and most of all, the ecstatic bliss of union with God.

 

You are making this sound so infantile. I do not recall saying specifically that. How naive would that be?

Apparently I must have misunderstood you. I thought you weren't getting the results from AYP. Sorry!

 

You know, I recently re-read an ebook from what I believe is an authentic case of someone becoming enlightened through self-inquiry. In it, there was mention of a technique of sinking the mind down into the heart, and/or the belly. The person had been performing kriya yoga for 12 years and was now ripe for discovering the self. I thought of you.

The ebook is called "Autobiography of a Jnani".

 

And again, here is the technique of sinking the mind into the heart. I believe that this is what you have succeeded at doing:

Thanks, that is very interesting. But,I have not succeeded at doing anything.

 

With regard to jnana as such, again, I don't deny that the intellect is a valuable tool on the spiritual path. For me personally intellectual analysis became a dead end. I hope you will have more success with it than I did!

 

The forum served to create momentum in my practices. It also consumed allot of time, time which probably would have been better spent meditating. I think I was deluding myself that my posts were actually helping anyone. If anything, they served to bolster my ego and create attachment to 'being knowledgable". Posting on forums is also very dangerous because ignorant people will post comments which might disuade you or erroneously redirect you on your path. Mostly the forum promotes attachment to mental constructs and inevitably grows it's own kind of group karma.

 

I hear ya about the "time" issue. That's why I won't be able to keep visiting Taobums; it looks WAY too interesting! But I'm so glad that you were involved at the AYP forum because that's how we met. For me it's more of a "social" thing, sharing with all these wonderful like-minded people and inspiring each other. By the way, your thread where you describe all your experiences is very inspiring and quite enjoyable to read!

 

Really? By private, do you mean that there was a consent form that I had to sign in order to be a member? Did I unknowingly enter into some kind of contract? It is restricted to only members? Do you need a password to get into the forum? Does it not appear on Google and many search engines?

As I recall, you do need a password to participate in the forum and you also have to agree to "Terms of Service" or something to that effect.

 

Thank you for the mantra. It seems like something that Yogananda would create, trying to blend Christianity with Yoga.

 

Not so much a "blend." Rather, according to my teacher, yoga is a neutral spiritual technology, "whole body prayer" that can be used with ANY religion.

 

You know, I saw a documentary the other day on The Jesus Mantra.

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me, a sinner."

It does nothing for me except make me feel guilty.

 

Yep, I know what you mean! Many people have had that experience, which is why in the Episcopal Church a lot of times we leave off the "a sinner" part.

 

However, ever since I 'met Jesus' back in 1988, all I have to say is "I ask for love, guidance and protection from God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit" and I'm engulfed in a cloud of tingles of joy, bliss and happiness. Still works for me.

That's wonderful, I'm so happy for you!

 

All the best.

Thanks for the communications.

Same to you! I won't be hanging out here but feel free to email me.

 

In His Love,

 

MetalNun

[guruyoga]

He said I was a jivamukti, and, "You are just here for the meeting, you already have the teaching."

 

 

What does "jivanmukti" mean? It's a state. I guess what you're trying to say is "Jivanmukta" aka "completely liberated while in a physical body".

 

Interesting!! How does this person who met you determine you were completely liberated and enlightened in one meeting? Curious how he determined whether or not one is liberated and completely. And because you quote that here, I assume you agree and assert the same here? If it's one of those New Agey "heart knows it" stuff, thank you, I understand

Edited January 3, 2012 by guruyoga

[dwai]

Not so much a "blend." Rather, according to my teacher, yoga is a neutral spiritual technology, "whole body prayer" that can be used with ANY religion.

 

no yoga is not a neutral spiritual technology. It is very much hindu, just as tai chi is daoist. There have been misguided efforts to bend it with non-dharmic religions and really sorry ones at that. Ishwara pranidhana in yoga is not the same as " our lord and saviour jesus christ is the only way" kind of bhakti...

 

My 2 cents worth...

[jijaji]

It really bothers me how these people think they can call themselves Jivanmukta, Enlightened or what have you, it is just ignorant and shows how watered down they take it all.

 

Just like how AYP sees Bhakti or Ishta, it is a gross distortion of the TRUTH and is nothing but misleading.

 

I am sorry for my harsh tone, I know I said I was going to stay away from the discussion, but this is about the western destruction of Yoga and Vedanta to me.

Edited January 3, 2012 by jijaji