Patanjali's Sutras and Samyama questions

[Tibetan_Ice]

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI

 

Not sure what I said that made you feel like I was attacking you, but I can assure you that there was no intention of attacking you at all in any of my posts. I apologize for writing in such as way so as to make it possible for you to interpret them as such.

 

Unfortunately I think we both know that I can not give you any of the answers that you want. So this will be my last post to you here.

 

I hope you find everything you are looking for in Life. I truly wish you the best on your path.

 

Love,

Carson

Hi Carson

Just to be clear. Instead of focusing on the questions and answers, you chose to try to prove that I was incapable of any assessment or rational thought based on my personal practice. You kind of stepped out of bounds there. Further, you judged my personal practices as a basis to determine that I have never practiced AYP consistently, and you and I know that that just isn't true. I have consecutively gone months just doing DM and SB. And most of the other practices I did were at other times during the day.

 

And, you even posted a link to my personal journal for everyone to go see for themselves, like it's ok for you to attack my practices and so should everyone else. I consider that a personal attack. I am discussing AYP's modifications to classic yoga here and I am still sore from the abuse that was enacted on me. Yogani had no right to play guru and attack my practices as a diversion instead of answering my questions.

 

Did you ever stop and think for a moment that I might be right?

 

There is a simple test that you can do, if you can. By that, I mean, the typical events that occur with sustained continous focus are mental excitement, mind wandering about, mental fading, sleepiness etc. It takes a while to get the combination of effort, attention and intent just right. If you've never trained the mind to remain constant on one stationary thing, it might take a while to train it.

 

Set aside a meditation period and try this. Instead of repeating the mantra as recommended in Deep Meditation (effortlessly, letting the mantra go), visualize the words "I AM" so you can see it in your head. Then just focus on the "I" letter, visually 'seeing' it in the centre of your head with your third eye. Do sambhavi (pratyahara) and kechari at the same time. Hold on to the sight of the letter "I" and hold that. Repeat the sound "I" in one long continuous stream mentally (no gaps). Put in a lot of effort. Hold it until there is just the watcher and the letter "I". Keep at it until everything goes dark except for the letter "I". Tell me what happens next.

 

Yes, that is right. Instead of effortlessly dissolving off into the void or the gap, try sustaining continous awareness. Perhaps then you will realize that they are two different techniques and you will see what I am talking about.

 

And you might want to read the part that Jijaji helped me discover today about the gap and "maintaining perfect continuity between successive thought waves so that there is no gap or interval and so that there is throughout only one identical thought, no more a wave which rises and falls."

 

TI

[jijaji]

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Hi Jijaji

There is some background to that song, isn't there?

 

link: http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=168

The song describes Lennon's total dissatisfaction with the Maharishi. While at his retreat, it has been said that the Maharishi attempted to rape Mia Farrow. Once The Beatles learned of this, they immediately went to the Maharishi, and Lennon announced they were all leaving. The Maharishi asked why? Lennon said, "If you're so cosmic, you'll know why." As originally written, some of its lyrics were considered obscene, and had to be refined. Lennon had used the Maharishi's name, but had to change it for fear of being sued. But, Sexy Sadie is the Maharishi. Needless to say, that was the end of the Maharishi and The Beatles relationship. (thanks, Dominic - Pittsburgh, PA)

 

 

TI

[jijaji]

Hi Jijaji

There is some background to that song, isn't there?

 

link: http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=168

 

 

TI

 

Yup...hope your well T.I.

 

[gatito]

Hi Tibetan Ice

 

I was really sorry to read about what happened to you in AYP

 

I was banned by yogani myself because I included the words "intrinsically dangerous" in one of my posts and because I was trying to promote alternatives to AYP. I can't access my posts either to add more information in the light of my experience of using the system, so I can empathise with you on that one.

 

I tried to discuss this and resolve it amicably internally with yogani himself but sadly, he was too busy to answer any of my emails. I'd love to hear from him so that we can work out any residual issues amicably and privately, if indeed there are any.

 

Luckily, I managed to agree with one of the contacts on the AYP contact page that all my posts should be marked "Banned" and that proper warnings would be posted on the AYP site in case anyone else wants to experiment with this system.

 

I can only hope that yogani gets around to doing that sometime soon but I can't access the Support Forums from this IP address now to check myself.

 

If anyone is holding a grudge against me or disagrees with the factual accuracy or the wording of this post, I'd be very happy to discuss this with them privately and come to a reasonable compromise. It's much better than having a public disagreement.

 

Finally, I'd like to give the many friends that I made during my brief stay at AYP my very best wishes.

 

Luckily, it's taken less than 24 hours to work through this, so happily no harm's done.

 

Hopefully, that's the end of this thread and we can discuss something more useful.

 

Thank you to Taobums for your hospitality.

Edited March 29, 2012 by gatito

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Tibetan Ice

 

I was really sorry to read about what happened to you in AYP

 

I was banned by yogani myself because I included the words "intrinsically dangerous" in one of my posts and because I was trying to promote alternatives to AYP. I can't access my posts either to add more information in the light of my experience of using the system, so I can empathise with you on that one.

 

I tried to discuss this and resolve it amicably internally with yogani himself but sadly, he was too busy to answer any of my emails. I'd love to hear from him so that we can work out any residual issues amicably and privately, if indeed there are any.

 

Hi Gatito

Yes, after 4 1/2 years of regular AYP practices (and some deviations), I started to examine the teachings. I wish I would have done that sooner.

 

I'm sorry to hear that you've discovered the essence of the AYP forum, that is, AYP was set up to specifically support Yogani's specific form of yogic inventions and points of view. Yogani is not interested in truth, he is interested in propagating his "truth". I mean, where else are are you going to find someone trying to marry kriya yoga and TM? Where else are you going to find a definition of enlightenment as the union of ecstatic conductivity with inner silence? Yogani has developed his own nebulous language, but as soon as a person examines his terms and concepts, he/she realizes that Yogani lacks precise definitions and descriptions..

 

I stand by my final analysis of AYP and Yogani and his cohorts.

 

1) If Deep Meditation is TM (as confirmed by several posters on his forum), and TM is the practice of repeating a meaningless sound (mantra), then the fact that Yogani expounds on the purification of the mantra, and has even developed mantra enhancements clearly tells me that 1) Yogani does not have a clear understanding of TM, 2) Yogani invented the 'purification' and 'mantra enhancements' 3) Yogani does not understand the results of combining his customized practices. Perhaps that is why he overloads with every expansion (as do very many long term AYP practitioners). Have you ever heard of combining customized Kriya Yoga practices with TM?

 

2) Yogani has mislead the general public by claiming that his Deep Meditation is part of Patanjali's last three limbs of yoga. TM, or Deep Meditation is not a sustained concentrative practice. Patanjali's dharana/dhyana is.

 

3) And this one really bothers me.. Yogani has constructed a website and a forum (by the regular pruning of dissidents) that is so slick that it is a trap for the unwary. A regular seeker will read the 'free' lessons, start practising them for a few months and then start asking questions. Yogani has created so much psychological pressure and inertia, that his methods are correct and effective that it draws in the unsuspecting seeker. Later, when results aren't attained or the overloads start and the seeker starts asking too many questions, that is when the moderators put on the muzzles and if that doesn't succeed, you get banned. It's all scenery! It's all under the hood! Just do the practices, don't ask why or use your mind.

 

And then, if you want clarification, you start to buy the books, which can add up to hundreds of dollars..

But then you discover that Yogani's books are no better, they are just as nebulous and foggy as his term 'inner silence'.

 

I really feel sorry for the people who are sucked into his teachings. I wish I could warn them all to learn as much about various teachings and practices as they can before blindly accepting Yogani's yogic inventions and practising them for years before finally waking up and asking questions.

 

 

Luckily, I managed to agree with one of the contacts on the AYP contact page that all my posts should be marked "Banned" and that proper warnings would be posted on the AYP site in case anyone else wants to experiment with this system.

 

Yogani either has a bad memory or lacks integrity. I had written to him about the fact that AYP's forum advertised in it's forum help that you could edit or delete your posts at any time. At that time, he said he would get the programmers to change the help so that it acurately reflected the lack of ability to edit or delete posts. After many months nothing had changed and the forum help still stated that you could edit or delete your posts at any time. So, I contacted another AYP member, someone whom I regard highly, and pointed this out to him. He got Yogani to change it. And Yogani even wrote to him that it was the first time he had heard of this deception. So, good luck with request for the "Banned" markings. I wouldn't hold my breath on that one (pun intended)..

 

I can only hope that yogani gets around to doing that sometime soon but I can't access the Support Forums from this IP address now to check myself.

In your posts on the "Is it worth it?" thread at AYP, there are no "Banned" flags.. Yogani and the moderators are carefully pruning the posts on the forum to make is seem credible and unbiased, but we both know that in reality, they are guilty of deception. By preventing people from posting their true opinions or preventing them from deleting their posts, AYP has managed to appear as something that it is not. Oh... the karma..

 

 

If anyone is holding a grudge against me or disagrees with the factual accuracy or the wording of this post, I'd be very happy to discuss this with them privately and come to a reasonable compromise. It's much better than having a public disagreement.

 

Finally, I'd like to give the many friends that I made during my brief stay at AYP my very best wishes.

 

Luckily, it's taken less than 24 hours to work through this, so happily no harm's done.

 

Hopefully, that's the end of this thread and we can discuss something more useful.

 

Thank you to Taobums for your hospitality.

 

You know, the best part about getting banned from posting was that I haven't had an overload since and I have much more free time to meditate and practice. I just feel so sorry for all the blind followers who are playing the part of Yogani's guinea pigs.. even the parrots and brown-nosers..

 

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that you've discovered the truth about AYP the hard way. There are many others whom have been banned, some very bright people too. What is great about TTB is that there is no hidden agenda lying in the cracks waiting to jump out at you.

 

Perhaps one day they will change the laws in the US so that whatever is written on a forum must remain editable and capable of being deleted by the author.

 

TI

Edited March 28, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[gatito]

Hey! TI!

 

I'm really glad that you're still around.

 

I'm happy to pick up on some of your points if we can agree some ground rules first.

 

I went to AYP to learn something and, as far as I'm concerned, we've parted amicably.

 

I don't want to lose you as a friend and I don't want to lose any of the friendships that I have at AYP, despite the fact that I no longer use or advocate the use of any part of the AYP system myself. I also believe that there are better approaches.

 

Is that OK with you?

 

With Love

 

gatito

Edited March 29, 2012 by gatito

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hey! TI!

 

I'm really glad that you're still around.

 

I'm happy to pick up on some of your points if we can agree some ground rules first.

 

I went to AYP to learn something and, as far as I'm concerned, we've parted amicably.

 

I don't want to lose you as a friend and I don't want to lose any of the friendships that I have at AYP, despite the fact that I no longer use or advocate the use of any part of the AYP system myself. I also believe that there are better approaches.

 

Is that OK with you?

 

With Love

 

gatito

 

Hi Gatito

That is fine with me.

I appreciate you sharing your experiences at AYP. I only wish more ex-AYP'ers would do the same.

 

AUM SHANTI

 

TI

[gatito]

Hi TI

 

Each to their own and, although it's not for me, I feel that I've met many friends through AYP, including you.

 

So, perhaps Om Shanti is a good note to end this thread on, unless you'd like to grab a beer sometime?

 

With Love

 

gatito

Edited March 31, 2012 by gatito

[jijaji]

Hey Hey Mr Ice,

 

Glad your still here! I have missed you for a while.

 

Yes AYP is a hodgepodge of bullshit that no one is allowed to question. Yogani is in hiding from all the ex AYPers who are looking to confront him.

 

He's basically a pussy, who does not allow anyone to question or differ from him in his ivory tower over there.

 

His followers are just plain weird!

 

[jijaji]

another thing about AYP,

 

no one over there, no matter how long they have been doing I AM meditation cannot discuss or tell you the history OR origins of the I AM mantra.

 

If you directly ask, you will be told you have to ask Yogani or they will give you a link to one of Yoganis teachings...

 

How weird, How Weird How Fucking weird...

 

NONE of them can answer this question, it speaks heaps about blindly following thats for sure...

 

Edited April 19, 2012 by jijaji

[Tibetan_Ice]

[jijaji]

T.I.,

 

Just saying a quick hello, good to see you here!

 

I'm busy working now....I'll post more later.

 

But one small thing ;

 

Yogani being the great distiller of the Yoga System and Hinduism would get a better grasp of the traditions he is distilling if he knew Sanskrit..

 

I am not 100% sure if he does not, he may know a little, but I am pretty damn sure its minimal.

 

I can tell by some of his pronunciations in his audios/videos

 

I also wonder how much time he has spent in India if any.

 

Edited April 20, 2012 by jijaji

[goldenfox]

I AM is inherent in the process of breathing itself. The seed sound of the breath is Ham-Sa or Hong-Sau ('I am - He'). Not in the verbal or even mentally superimposed sense but in the actual internal sound of it. The dual nature of the breath - inbreath and outbreath - is reflective of the state of non-duality becoming manifest as duality. The pure being in which even the I does not spring up, becomes the 'I' and the 'He' or 'That' (ie; 'self' and 'other' or 'the rest', like two sides of the same coin), which is a result of the process of knower-knowing-known springing up when the ego is present.

 

I dont know to what extent Yogani has clearly had insight into dharana, dhyana, samadhi (taken together which comprise samyama), but traditionally dharana is considered as concentration or rather the attempt to get into the unbroken flow of fixity of attention which when accomplished is then technically termed dhyana, or meditation. When such effortless flow of attention becomes object-less (devoid of an object of perception), that is samadhi. Process of knower-knowing-known gets resolved in absolute absorption. Samayama is simply the process of dharana, dhyana and samadhi occuring as a single progression. Whatever is the object of attention on which samyama is performed, the true significance or meaning of it is intuited directly through being united with the inner meaning of the object by samadhi. This is for example how the ancient rishis deciphered the heavens and formulated astrology. By performing samyama on the stars and planets, their subtle natural movements and astral qualities were perceived within the omnipresence of the consciousness perfected in samadhi (and hence in samayama).

Edited May 5, 2012 by goldenfox

[Tibetan_Ice]

[goldenfox]

It seems impractical and naive of Yogani to attempt to redefine samyama, since it already has a clear meaning based on Patanjali's system. One cannot even attempt to master samayama without being able to go into samadhi. So yeah, i dont give much credence to this other 'samyama' of Yogani's. As for siddhi, it is a major pitfall to try to cultivate them at all. Without perfecting yama/niyama, which can only be really perfect in Nirvikalpa samadhi, it is always playing with fire to attempt to use siddhis. I have had a little experience with wayward use of a few siddhis and the result has always been very distressing, uncomfortable and even horrifying. Definitely not recommended without first having complete control of the mind, which really is a siddhi all in itself and perhaps the most difficult one to master.

 

Also, it was not Yogananda who introduced that rendering of Hamsa. Sa-ham in Sanskrit itself refers to union of human and Divine. Remember Sanskrit is an ancient language from higher ages. It is even said to be the language of the gods, due to the Vedas being shruti, or revealed within that way. This is why mantras in Sanskrit have a great vibrational effect, since they operate the seed sounds of a given quality or thing. The I AM of the Bible came much later than the I AM THAT of the Vedas. I AM and I AM THAT and I AM THAT I AM are all expressions of the Divine consciousness and are eternal. It is not the property of a given person, teaching or religious tradition. Its origin is in God.

[Tibetan_Ice]

It seems impractical and naive of Yogani to attempt to redefine samyama, since it already has a clear meaning based on Patanjali's system. One cannot even attempt to master samayama without being able to go into samadhi. So yeah, i dont give much credence to this other 'samyama' of Yogani's. As for siddhi, it is a major pitfall to try to cultivate them at all. Without perfecting yama/niyama, which can only be really perfect in Nirvikalpa samadhi, it is always playing with fire to attempt to use siddhis. I have had a little experience with wayward use of a few siddhis and the result has always been very distressing, uncomfortable and even horrifying. Definitely not recommended without first having complete control of the mind, which really is a siddhi all in itself and perhaps the most difficult one to master.

 

Also, it was not Yogananda who introduced that rendering of Hamsa. Sa-ham in Sanskrit itself refers to union of human and Divine. Remember Sanskrit is an ancient language from higher ages. It is even said to be the language of the gods, due to the Vedas being shruti, or revealed within that way. This is why mantras in Sanskrit have a great vibrational effect, since they operate the seed sounds of a given quality or thing. The I AM of the Bible came much later than the I AM THAT of the Vedas. I AM and I AM THAT and I AM THAT I AM are all expressions of the Divine consciousness and are eternal. It is not the property of a given person, teaching or religious tradition. Its origin is in God.

 

Hi Golden Fox

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate it.

 

TI

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I just recently left AYP... I can't believe it took almost two years to realize it was such cobblers! My thoughts, here.

 

Good work, TI. I hope as many people as possible read your posts and think twice before joining the Yogani gang.