Michael Winn's Response To Sean Denty On Ht

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 20, 2021 by darebak

[thaddeus]

Don't see how asking one person not to hurl childish insults at another is lofty. And it certainly is not censorship, fear or desire for something. Just lookin and hopin for some general respect between members. Obviously lookin in the wrong place.

 

Now Sunshine makes a good point.

 

Cyas.

 

"Backs out of saloon doors, watches for flying whiskey bottles, turns and walks away from thread."

c'mon..cut it out and come back..i'm sorry if i offended you with my wording, let's hug it out!

[DentyDao]

Hi all,

 

I would just like to say that there is an honest debate taking place on the HT forum. Personally, I feel that, far from the yang infused ego stuggle that some have made it out to be, this is a constructive dialoge between two people, who, underneeth a stong difference of opinion genuinely care about the people affected by such things. Frankly, all this talk of harmony and cooperation is a little over preached. It's natural and healthy to have different points of view and even when it's a bit heated, it's important to find the truth in all of this.

 

John Chang, in the beginning, wanted to help humanity by training masters who would work with people to push the envelope of human understanding and consciousness. Sadly it was not to be, because of the immaturity of the people to caught up in greed and jealosy to see the good that could have come out of it.

 

The reasons I'm sharing my views and the opportunity presented, simply comes from a desire share and I truly gave nothing to gain from either my critism of the HT methods or the offer to study with David.

 

You might be interested in the ongoing discussion there, which I am now commited to following through in order to offer a different point of view than the one Michael has been offering since I met him in 98. Just for the record, I did earn my certification and practiced the methods taught for five years, everday. During three of these, I lived with Michael at the Healing Dao Center in the Catskills. I was on good terms with every senior instructor that taught there and was present during many public and private conversations with senior instructors who where there and expressed their concerns about the practices and limitations of this system.

 

Warm regards, Sean

Edited October 9, 2006 by seandenty

[fatherpaul]

forgive me im new here

but where in the tao

is there room for conflict?

[Yoda]

Welcome to taobums FatherPaul!

[fatherpaul]

Welcome to taobums FatherPaul!

 

thank you

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 20, 2021 by darebak

[Smile]

I just saw Michael Winn reffering to Sean's blog on how "we bring our personal truth/destiny into alignment with the Life Force in each moment, that is the first and thus most important level of immortality".

 

Sounds like BS to me. Although i agree with what Sean wrote there, this doesn't apply to the argument at hand. I always follow one rule: "It's not what they say- it's what they do". Winn teaches a complicated system. There is no "People, the truth is within you and so is the teacher, so lets meditate in silence..." It's more "imagine the blue energy ball right between your kidneys..."

Sean is searching as well with many books being read and methods tried out. If "each of us is one hundred percent enough, one hundred percent free" then why do we keep searching? Maybe because we believe deep inside we are not. And maybe the next method will unlock the cage and will set us free. But that would look like the thing we discussed before: "What made the master enlightened- the falling leaves or 20 years of meditation?"

[Lozen]

Is this a debate I need to really keep on top of because somebody might kick me off of their site for no real reason and delete all my posts a year and a half from now?

[sean]

Sean is searching as well with many books being read and methods tried out. If "each of us is one hundred percent enough, one hundred percent free" then why do we keep searching? Maybe because we believe deep inside we are not. And maybe the next method will unlock the cage and will set us free.

I get into a zone writing sometimes where I am attempting to steer my mind, and maybe my reader as well, into giving up for a split second and opening up to the clarity of the present moment. My words are also just another part of the dream though, probably best taken as a little melody you are overhearing me whistle. There are two components of my personal experience going into this post that I'd like to describe. First, is what I sublimely feel as a result of my meditation. This feeling does come and go (seems to prefer going at this stage ). Second, it's what I've come to realize that I already know and have always known on some level ... self-evident Truth, tacit knowledge, Big Mind, not sure what to call it. But it's incontrovertible. It makes more sense on the deepest level of my being than anything else I've encountered so I'm sticking with it for now. It's true I am not embodying this realization. In fact I keep forgetting who I Am constantly and get caught up in the illusion more often than not. So this knowledge has an element of faith to it. Because my "everything is perfect" frame is just words, it's a frame. So it drops away like everything manifest. This is where the next line in my post is crucial. "This perfection includes all of the ways we convince ourselves otherwise and play unpleasant games with our freedom." Enlightenment is so free it can pretend to be a separate human reading someone else's post on The Tao Bums. My faith is a kind of umbilical cord to Source, nourishing me no matter how lost I get. When I catch myself thinking "just this next book or this next technique will help me become free", my faith sets off a little light bulb and I can recognize that, even though I may not feel it strongly in the moment, or even believe it fully, I Am already That. My experience is "merely part of the endless creativity of a playful void", to borrow from a recent post by our Father Paul here. And I don't even have to put the book down though or stop my practice. Because what would be the alternative? Sometimes we find ourselves in situations where we must make choices as if we were only a separate self. How to wake up from this kind of dream willfully? It's a double bind. This is just what is arising in that moment. Seeking comes and goes on it's own. And even post-enlightenment we can still enjoy meditation and reading, I think you agree with that. They are natural activities, like eating and sleeping.

But that would look like the thing we discussed before: "What made the master enlightened- the falling leaves or 20 years of meditation?"

This is such a wonderful meditation. I like to ponder Baker Roshi's quote that I indirectly referred to in that post, "Enlightenment is an accident. Meditation makes you accident prone".

 

Sean

[Smile]

Nice. My comments were actually not about what you wrote but the way Winn turned the argument around and used your post to escape from answering the questions rased. Kind of like if we argue about what MA is better and you say BJJ and present evidence to support it, then I say Mui Tai is the one and say check out this guy's blog that talks about a spontaneous form of MA that comes from within and is not based on a structured form.

[Lozen]

Hey, check out this guy's blog that talks about a spontaneous form of MA that comes from within and is not based on a structured form. http://www.straightblastgym.com/newbook.htm

[DentyDao]

[...]

gosh, you know, sean... I hate to say it because for some reason we have been at odds since firstt interaction.. but that is a load of bullshit.

 

spirituality is one thing. culture is another. If one pollutes the other, I see corruption. true spiritualism TRANSCENDS culture.

 

What did jesus say about tradition? what does the taoist canon the 'tao te ching' have to say about such things as tradition? what do you think lao tzu would say about 'culture'?

 

I have always had a real deep appreciation for eastern spirituality.. It is so great.. but for eastern culture *outside* of their spiritual practice? ewww. (especially the japanese....heh)...

 

I may not be the most humble, but I am certainly not proud. As for this 'false sense of entitlement' you are hooked on.. I don't understand how you come to this conclusion? I personally have never demanded anyone to be my teacher or anything. (or perhaps you refer to the fact that people abhor the tendency to keep things secret? Not only to keep things secret.. but to hide such things under the guise of our 'well-being'...? you cannot deny that this can be easily percieved as nothing but.. despicable elitism?)

 

Don't be offended by my rash postings, sean. A wizard should now better than that.

[DentyDao]

Hey triple dot, here's your homework assignment for this week: go sit down in a quite space were no one can disturb you for a few hours. Then just sit quietly; don't think; don't try not to think; don't try anything. If thoughts arise just watch them without getting involved or judgement. Do this for one hour everyday.

 

On the last day, ask your self this question, "who am I?" Ask it from the heart and see what happens.

 

This is the fundamental base you need to even begin to think rationally. Don't add anything to it, the "teacher will come to you."

 

 

As for your discourse on the seperation of Chinese culture and spirituallity, it does not exist. That is the main difference between them and us.

 

Sean D.

[Lozen]

Interesting. Ken Cohen teaches SOME Taoist practices and some Native American practices to white people and other people of all colors, with full sanction from his teachers. Your post was full of generalizations that I don't think apply to every teacher, every Taoist, every Native American, every white person searching for knowledge.

[DentyDao]

Interesting. Ken Cohen teaches SOME Taoist practices and some Native American practices to white people and other people of all colors, with full sanction from his teachers. Your post was full of generalizations that I don't think apply to every teacher, every Taoist, every Native American, every white person searching for knowledge.

 

Of course this doesn't apply to all teachers who are white; how silly. As I clearly stated at the beginning of teh post, my comments were about the HT.

[Lozen]

Of course this doesn't apply to all teachers who are white; how silly. As I clearly stated at the beginning of teh post, my comments were about the HT.

 

Why didn't you just say what you meant then? e.g. "Michael Winn is stealing Taoist teachings, just like Newagers who make up their own sweat ceremonies." That would have been more honest.

[thaddeus]

Hi All,

 

I'd like to add a few thoughts on my views of what Michael is teaching and share what practicing Daoists have said about people who do what Michael Winn has done.

 

Sean, with all due respect, this vendetta you have against Healing Tao and Michael Winn is getting old.

T

[DentyDao]

Why didn't you just say what you meant then? e.g. "Michael Winn is stealing Taoist teachings, just like Newagers who make up their own sweat ceremonies." That would have been more honest.

 

Hmmm... how so?

[Cameron]

I think it's cool to allow people here the space to express there opinions of different teachers and practices, even if they are in conflict with our own.

 

Sean, I wouldn't presume to judge you or your teachers since I have no experience with them. I do have experience with M Winn and have learned some really, really cool practices from him.

 

Ime not into teacher bashing. If you think your on the real path to Tao great. Hope you achieve your goals.

 

Unfortunatly for you, my guess is most of the Tao Bums are people like you who need to experience for themselves, as you did spending time with Winn and then finding David Shen.

 

But if anyone does follow through with your offer here I would definetly be interested in hearing any feedback.

[DentyDao]

I think it's cool to allow people here the space to express there opinions of different teachers and practices, even if they are in conflict with our own.

 

Sean, I wouldn't presume to judge you or your teachers since I have no experience with them. I do have experience with M Winn and have learned some really, really cool practices from him.

 

Ime not into teacher bashing. If you think your on the real path to Tao great. Hope you achieve your goals.

 

Unfortunatly for you, my guess is most of the Tao Bums are people like you who need to experience for themselves, as you did spending time with Winn and then finding David Shen.

 

But if anyone does follow through with your offer here I would definetly be interested in hearing any feedback.

 

Cameron,

 

I appreciate you sensible approach; sounds like your fairly serious. I just wanted to share my perspective and I understand that many people have great experiences with Winn. He's a good person on the whole, but I guess I have felt lately that people might like another view than the one he's giving.

 

I have basically done what I intended to do, which was to follow up on some posting that I did about two or three years ago about John Chang that attracted some interest. I hope that some people will benifit and that I've given some food for thought. Naturally my posts were bound to attract some negative attention because they challenge some of the view points thta people hold about Daoism in the west. In any case, about thirty people that were interested are now actively discussing their interest with David on a private forum, so I'm pleased and I wish them well.

 

What's important in all of our personal searches, is the work that we do. The opinions and coversations around that work have there place, but ultimately we each follow our own desteny and path and that's the way it was met to be. As the Daoists say, "The world is beautiful because of all the wonderful diversity."

 

Sean

[...]

 

This is the fundamental base you need to even begin to think rationally. Don't add anything to it, the "teacher will come to you."

As for your discourse on the seperation of Chinese culture and spirituallity, it does not exist. That is the main difference between them and us.

 

Sean D.

 

 

check out this link-- http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videopla...aghorn,00.html#

There are alot of really, really bad things going on in china. If culture/spirituality is unseperable.. Then what does this mean? Do I need to mention the mao communist/cultural revolution?

 

There MUST be a discernment to make between culture and spirituality-- because one often comes at the cost of the other.

[Wayfarer64]

"forgive me im new here

but where in the tao

is there room for conflict?"

 

Hi Father Paul, I have enjoyed your contributions emmensely...

Still, It would seem that there is room - even for conflict in the Tao:

 

The 6th hexagram of the Yi Jing is Sung (conflict) I think we can admit the reality that evils exist and we need to rise up as men of conscience to thwart that which we see as evil, (before it grows and gains power is the admonition).

 

I doubt if this bickering counts as real conflict as yet ... much less having any evil to it!!!

 

I have expressed my concern that such turf wars can get bloody- as they do in NYC's China Town every so often, but that seems to me- generally -not to be the way of the Tao Bums. I've not often heard- (read) fightin' words and there is almost always appologetic recants when umbrage is taken.

 

With all the chi being stored up in self-determined efforts by many regulars -I'd say the self-control is remarkable!

I have always thought it is best to keep the Chi moving and "release" it after you've pumped yrself up with it. But once again different strokes for different druthers...

 

I for one hope the fiestyness does not put you off so very much.

Namaste

[DentyDao]

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Edited February 7, 2010 by seandenty