Michael Winn's Response To Sean Denty On Ht

[Cameron]

Cameron,

 

I appreciate you sensible approach; sounds like your fairly serious. I just wanted to share my perspective and I understand that many people have great experiences with Winn. He's a good person on the whole, but I guess I have felt lately that people might like another view than the one he's giving.

 

I have basically done what I intended to do, which was to follow up on some posting that I did about two or three years ago about John Chang that attracted some interest. I hope that some people will benifit and that I've given some food for thought. Naturally my posts were bound to attract some negative attention because they challenge some of the view points thta people hold about Daoism in the west. In any case, about thirty people that were interested are now actively discussing their interest with David on a private forum, so I'm pleased and I wish them well.

 

What's important in all of our personal searches, is the work that we do. The opinions and coversations around that work have there place, but ultimately we each follow our own desteny and path and that's the way it was met to be. As the Daoists say, "The world is beautiful because of all the wonderful diversity."

 

Sean

 

 

[affenbrot]

[Wayfarer64]

[freeform]

Firstly - what Affenbrot said...

 

Secondly, in every practice there are two things going on - process and content. Content is 'the colour of liver/wood energy is green'... process is the sensory perception that the content alludes to - the feeling of wood energy.

 

In terms of process there are few differences in terms of practice. There are fundamental models that differentiate methodologies - but these are very clear from the start (think about the difference between zen and taoist alchemy). In terms of content the differences are emense! Even within different Taoist schools there are huge differences in content, even between individuals in the same school there are many differences in content. Content is the ten thousand things... process is the five phases...

 

The Chinese culture (as well as many other 'deep rooted' cultures) consider content to be of the utmost importance! In Huna you have to learn the specific hawaiian chants and traditions to decode the wisdom within... the same with Jewish mysticism, the same with Sufism and ofcourse the same with traditional Taoism... Teaching practices through content is important within these traditions, because the content has been refined over years to allude to and empower the process... the content is like the map that directs you to where you need to go.

 

My generation of Westerners have a very different way of going about things... we have no deep-rooted content that has been refined over many generations... We are from birth bombarded with all kinds of information (content) that leads in thousands of different directions... So we tend to shun tradition (content) in favour of process (at least I do!) - others get embroiled in the confusing sea of content and never really get out of it. We may not completely understand the ways of the older, 'deep-rooted', content driven peoples... and they may not understand our way of contentless process driven development... It doesn't mean that either are right or wrong... but at this time the world is going through many changes - deep-rootedness is hard to find... so we evolve - we have to.

 

Denty has seen the value of content... I've seen the value of pocess... I can look at Huna, Magick, and many other esoteric schools, avoiding the pitfalls of getting stuck on the content and seeing the process that leads to the results that interest me... Huna and Toaism are essentially the same if you look at process, but are worlds appart if you look at content... High-level masters know about process very well... because they discover it whilst following content for decades... so a Huna master will recognise a Taoist master easily...

 

Masters that have been taught through content can only teach through content... Process is much faster, but harder to teach... So we learn how to dicern process and discard content... and that's what I choose to do.

 

Finally... consider this... Which is the higher form of wisdom - that of a 100yr old sage or that of a 1yr old child?... content or process - you decide

[三江源]

.

Edited March 11, 2015 by 三江源

[affenbrot]

[Lozen]

Ken Cohen also mentions in his book that most forms of qi gong are actually ILLEGAL in China, so that shows a huge separation of culture and spirituality right there IMO.

 

He said the best place to study Taoism was in the U.S....

[thaddeus]

He said the best place to study Taoism was in the U.S....

I read somewhere Korea...that alot of the taoist and internal people fled there..and it seems there are a lot of interesting practices coming out of there..I bet Vietnam has alot of stuff we don't know about as well.

T

[Wayfarer64]

Dear Affenbrot et al,

 

Thanks for yr concidered entries... One point is that there is racism to verying degrees almost everywhere people of similar culture/race congrigate. I 'm not condoning it by anymeans, just noticing it.

 

Also many of the American social atttributes and interests that you mention are far from main-stream. They are prevalent in our circles -no doubt - but are not even on the map for most Americans.

 

I get a palpable sense of coming into civilization going to Europe that is just not part of the American fabric. We just haven't had the time. And we continue to find less and less time for the "content" mentioned on this thread as well. A process of forced change is prevailing and we have lost many cherished values, This on every level- encluding adherance to the Constitution, in the rush of process while ignoring content...

More's the pity.

Being powerful and vapid seems to be our strong suit as a nation. It amounts to youthful folly- the 4th hexagram of the Yi Jing...We don't even pay attention to the lay of the land to guide us, we just rush headlong in our hubris and belief in manifest destiny etc...

[...]

Government is seperate from culture here.

 

Why don't you come up with something well thought out before you post next time.

 

Here is a link to the definitions of 'culture' on dictionary.com. I really appreciate the sixth definition at the moment:

 

"Anthropology. the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another. "

 

 

Now, you should be insulting me, personally. ...But when you dismiss and insult the integrity of a rather sane argument-- you make yourself to look like a real piece of shit.

 

I hate you. I hope your 'masters' see what a fine job you're doing representing them. Maybe they'll decide to hide their energetic teachings from you until you can cultivate some wisdom?

 

P.S.-- I already know I am a piece of shit. Don't even bother saying it. In fact, why don't we both just promise to ignore eachother?

[DentyDao]

...

Edited February 7, 2010 by seandenty

[Jin]

Hi Jin, did you miss all the fun? What do you think all the exchange on HT board and here?

 

Thanks for the help Max.

 

I've been following the discussions on HT and here as soon as Sean Denty arrived and I found them pretty interesting.

 

It seems to me that Mr. Denty wanted to emphasize how the Healing/Universal Dao is an ongoing experiment much like you've said youself. I can't validate these formulas to say that they do what the course descriptions say as I have not tested them out.

 

There are more points in this issue too, like performing siddhis proving that you are a real master, or whether these formulas should be kept secret away from the West especially, etc. Michael says one thing, Denty says the opposite. I am not going to pick sides here as I really don't care as it won't change anything except people's views, which I've learned is really not worth "trying" to change.

 

Obviously, Lei Shan Dao is an authentic lineage congruent with traditional Daoist Alchemy. If people want to try it, that's fine, Denty made the offer for Denmark. If people want to dedicate themselves to Michael's path, that's fine too, there will be a spiritual science in the near future whether people like it or not. Yes, knowledge such as this has destroyed Atlantis and things are repeating, hopfully for the better this time. There will only be science, no more traditions, whether Eastern or Western.

 

As for myself, I choose the strict discipline of sitting in stillness, much like you. Although, I utilize the 3 dantians too (Wudang). I mean when one observes the lower dantian, for example, he can observe and maximize the sensations of steaming, dimensional portals, electricity, colourless light, soundless sound, etc. without playing with them.

 

Jin

[sean]

FYI, I split the martial arts discussion off so it can have it's own thread here: IMA vs. MMA

[Spectrum]

....there will be a spiritual science in the near future whether people like it or not. Yes, knowledge such as this has destroyed Atlantis and things are repeating, hopfully for the better this time. There will only be science, no more traditions, whether Eastern or Western.

 

You should expound on this.

 

As for myself, I choose the strict discipline of sitting in stillness, much like you. Although, I utilize the 3 dantians too (Wudang). I mean when one observes the lower dantian, for example, he can observe and maximize the sensations of steaming, dimensional portals, electricity, colourless light, soundless sound, etc. without playing with them.

 

Key phrase above that reminds me of Taoism: "observe and maximize the sensations of"

 

steaming- as in the transformation of jing to chi?

 

dimensional portals- slippping in between the vibratory seems?

 

electricity- actupuncture is real and it's in you energizer bunny! Don't let out the magic smoke!

 

colourless light- visual hallucinations/seeing in the spirit

 

soundless sound-auditorial hallucinations/hearing in the spirit

 

Fun post. Keep em coming.

 

Spectrum

Edited October 14, 2006 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

The underlying spirituallity carried on by the masters has been thriving behind the scenes for at least 7,000 years, probably more.

 

The field in which the history of human spirituality has simply floated on the surface of is far older then humans perception of it. I'd like to point out here that defining spirituality by the "masters" who carry it on is like defining the wonder of music only through famous composers and not playing the song yourself, or at least hum it!

 

 

Most Chinese don't even know about these things anymore. The west has it's own neigong, which is still alive in old Europe, but most people don't know about that ether.

 

Why don't you assume good things about people? Would you rather have the grocery store clerk talking to you about mystery school fertility cults? Go up to any Seattle coffee shop, they probably will...

Edited October 14, 2006 by Spectrum

[footpad]

forgive me im new here

but where in the tao

is there room for conflict?

 

Hello Fatherpaul;

 

I don't pretend to know if there is room in the tao for conflict or not

but I'm pretty sure there is plenty of room for conflict in humans,

especially the one called me.

 

Footpad

[Jin]

Hi Spectrum,

 

You should expound on this.

 

Not much to expound here. Alchemy was the science of Atlantis/Lemuria. It is now split in many traditions. They will come together, it's inevitable. Winn has started to do that, science is experimental. My point was that it will become a global science, I've had enough alien experiences to confirm this to be true.

 

Key phrase above that reminds me of Taoism: "observe and maximize the sensations of"

 

steaming- as in the transformation of jing to chi?

 

dimensional portals- slippping in between the vibratory seems?

 

electricity- actupuncture is real and it's in you energizer bunny! Don't let out the magic smoke!

 

colourless light- visual hallucinations/seeing in the spirit

 

soundless sound-auditorial hallucinations/hearing in the spirit

 

Fun post. Keep em coming.

 

Did you read Taiji Alchemy Secrets by Zhang, San Feng? This is his alchemy. Buddhist meditation such as silent illumination or shikantaza or sitting forgetting is about observing whatever that arises.

 

Wudang Alchemy is a cross between Buddhist and Daoist meditation because it concentrates the void space into a dantian and observation is giving to whatever phenomena within that void space and are therefore not grasping to these phenomena. Electricty, steam, portals, whatever phenomena it is, naturally occur within that space and you observe it with one-pointed concentration.

 

The method is so simple yet so profound, but few are willing to devote time into this kind of alchemy.

 

Ya, it's fun, if you've got anymore, keep em coming

 

Jin

[Uncle Fester]

...

Edited September 28, 2021 by darebak

[erdweir]

But what exactly is Winn's 'stuff' if by his own admition Chia was not taught high level stuff..it was just 'described' to him. And chia stopped his training at 19 vs 13..whatever..so he in turn, turns right around and repackages it. Blind leading blind, no?

My impression of all of these guys is that they are floundering around, talking to ghosts in the end, and still have nothing to show but rants on the internet and incomplete training, yet they want to lead people and say the other guy is wrong.

T

 

I agree, I was shocked that Winn actually admitted that Chia had never even practiced Kan and Li. It's no surprise that Sean has criticisms of a system that is really untested at the high levels and has such great claims too. But good for Winn for being honest about it at least. Still trying to defend it after that is a bit confusing though.. neither of them comes across as being all that balanced in my opinion, And neither of them really answers all of the other's points. It confirms allot of my suspicions and raises some new ones.

Edited May 13, 2009 by erdweir

[宁]

I agree, I was shocked that Winn actually admitted that Chia had never even practiced Kan and Li. It's no surprise that Sean has criticisms of a system that is really untested at the high levels and has such great claims too. But good for Winn for being honest about it at least. Still trying to defend it after that is a bit confusing though.. neither of them comes across as being all that balanced in my opinion, And neither of them really answers all of the other's points. It confirms allot of my suspicions and raises some new ones.

 

 

Oh no

Kan and Li, as taught by Master Chia, needs specific environment to practice, that is, Darkroom.

The Darkroom in Tao Garden has been completed quite a fiew years ago, and since then Master Chia is often practicing and teaching the higher Kan and Li formulas. Michael Winn talked about it before this happened.

I'm still not sure how and why does Mr. Winn consider practicing Kan and Li outside the Darkroom environment, but I'm sure I'll find out more in the future.

 

Jumping to conclusions based on scarce information is not a good attitude, and won't lead you very far.

[erdweir]

Oh no

Kan and Li, as taught by Master Chia, needs specific environment to practice, that is, Darkroom.

The Darkroom in Tao Garden has been completed quite a fiew years ago, and since then Master Chia is often practicing and teaching the higher Kan and Li formulas. Michael Winn talked about it before this happened.

I'm still not sure how and why does Mr. Winn consider practicing Kan and Li outside the Darkroom environment, but I'm sure I'll find out more in the future.

 

Jumping to conclusions based on scarce information is not a good attitude, and won't lead you very far.

 

ok, if you are telling the truth, I stand corrected, but I am hardly jumping to conclusions.

 

Winn says this in the Healing Tao Forum, and weren't the Kan and Li books published before the darkness retreat was built a few years ago? The books carry the date of 2002. This spat started four years later, in 2006, and that is when Winn admits Chia never practiced Kan and LI, and that he(Winn) had to learn it form some disembodied immortals.

Edited May 13, 2009 by erdweir

[宁]

ok, if you are telling the truth, I stand corrected, but I am hardly jumping to conclusions.

 

Winn says this in the Healing Tao Forum, and weren't the Kan and Li books published before the darkness retreat was built a few years ago? The books carry the date of 2002. This spat started four years later, in 2006, and that is when Winn admits Chia never practiced Kan and LI, and that he(Winn) had to learn it form some disembodied immortals.

 

it isn't like i feel the need to correct you.

here, i'm the one that jumps of his seat everytime someone starts yapping mantak chia this, mantak chia that, yikkady yakkady

 

i owe much to his teachings, i think it's only fair.

and i don't do it everytime. most of the time i preffer letting them yapp their yapp

 

sorry, i can't always be serious

[erdweir]

it isn't like i feel the need to correct you.

here, i'm the one that jumps of his seat everytime someone starts yapping mantak chia this, mantak chia that, yikkady yakkady

 

i owe much to his teachings, i think it's only fair.

and i don't do it everytime. most of the time i preffer letting them yapp their yapp

 

sorry, i can't always be serious

 

You dont have to be serious, do whatever you want...

 

People talk about these things, we are trying to figure it our here together. I am not saying all that Mantak Chia is all bad, nor Michael Winn or David Veresi, etc. I am happy i discovered Mantak Chia's books but I find them confusing and lacking in some ways. Even though I find them flawed, they introduced me to this world, and helped me too, so I am grateful nonetheless. My reservations are just from my point of view of course, but I have my reasons. The ethical issues of publishing untried methods should be taken seriously.

 

As far as yapping, I agree with you. This controversy doesn't show the best of everybody. On the other hand, people need to talk. I appreciate being able to hear everyone's thoughts, even if they arent always expressed in the most balanced way.

[宁]

You dont have to be serious, do whatever you want...

 

People talk about these things, we are trying to figure it our here together. I am not saying all that Mantak Chia is all bad, nor Michael Winn or David Veresi, etc. I am happy i discovered Mantak Chia's books but I find them confusing and lacking in some ways. Even though I find them flawed, they introduced me to this world, and helped me too, so I am grateful nonetheless. My reservations are just from my point of view of course, but I have my reasons. The ethical issues of publishing untried methods should be taken seriously.

 

As far as yapping, I agree with you. This controversy doesn't show the best of everybody. On the other hand, people need to talk. I appreciate being able to hear everyone's thoughts, even if they arent always expressed in the most balanced way.

 

 

i made a special place on the taobums to talk about issues like these. it's the link in my signature. there it says how to handle books and different practices.

i'm happy to see you are searching, it's a good omen.

 

E

[virtuous pig]

any update on this topic? I notice having read through the entire thread that Sean D has edited some post 4 odd years later