Chuang Tzu Chapter 5, Section A

[Marblehead]

Section A

 

In Lu there was a Wang Tai who had lost both his feet; while his disciples who followed and went about with him were as numerous as those of Zhongni. Chang Ji asked Zhongni about him, saying, 'Though Wang Tai is a cripple, the disciples who follow him about divide Lu equally with you, Master. When he stands, he does not teach them; when he sits, he does not discourse to them. But they go to him empty, and come back full. Is there indeed such a thing as instruction without words? and while the body is imperfect, may the mind be complete? What sort of man is he?' Zhongni replied, 'This master is a sage. I have only been too late in going to him. I will make him my teacher; and how much more should those do so who are not equal to me! Why should only the state of Lu follow him? I will lead on all under heaven with me to do so.'

 

Chang Ji rejoined, 'He is a man who has lost his feet, and yet he is known as the venerable Wang - he must be very different from ordinary men. What is the peculiar way in which he employs his mind?' The reply was, 'Death and life are great considerations, but they could work no change in him. Though heaven and earth were to be overturned and fall, they would occasion him no loss. His judgment is fixed regarding that in which there is no element of falsehood; and, while other things change, he changes not. The transformations of things are to him the developments prescribed for them, and he keeps fast hold of the author of them.'

 

Chang Ji said, 'What do you mean?' 'When we look at things,' said Zhongni, 'as they differ, we see them to be different, (as for instance) the liver and the gall, or Chu and Yue; when we look at them, as they agree, we see them all to be a unity. So it is with this (Wang Tai). He takes no knowledge of the things for which his ears and eyes are the appropriate organs, but his mind delights itself in the harmony of (all excellent) qualities. He looks at the unity which belongs to things, and does not perceive where they have suffered loss. He looks on the loss of his feet as only the loss of so much earth.'

 

Chang Ji said, 'He is entirely occupied with his (proper) self. By his knowledge he has discovered (the nature of) his mind, and to that he holds as what is unchangeable; but how is it that men make so much of him?' The reply was, 'Men do not look into running water as a mirror, but into still water - it is only the still water that can arrest them all, and keep them (in the contemplation of their real selves). Of things which are what they are by the influence of the earth, it is only the pine and cypress which are the best instances - in winter as in summer brightly green. Of those which were what they were by the influence of Heaven, the most correct examples were Yao and Shun; fortunate in (thus) maintaining their own life correct, and so as to correct the lives of others. As a verification of the (power of) the original endowment, when it has been preserved, take the result of fearlessness - how the heroic spirit of a single brave soldier has been thrown into an army of nine hosts. If a man only seeking for fame and able in this way to secure it can produce such an effect, how much more (may we look for a greater result) from one whose rule is over heaven and earth, and holds all things in his treasury, who simply has his lodging in the six members of his body, whom his ears and eyes serve but as conveying emblematic images of things, who comprehends all his knowledge in a unity, and whose mind never dies! If such a man were to choose a day on which he would ascend far on high, men would (seek to) follow him there. But how should he be willing to occupy himself with other men?'

[konchog uma]

[ChiDragon]

　　魯有兀者王駘，從之遊者與仲尼相若。常季問於仲尼曰：「王駘，兀者也，從之遊者與夫子中分魯。立不教，坐不議，虛而往，實而歸。固有不言之教，無形而心成者邪？是何人也？」　

　

 

（意譯）

魯國有一個跛腳的人，名叫王駘。跟他交遊溝通的弟子，數目與孔子差不多。

 

常季問孔子說：「王駘不過是一個斷足人。跟他交遊溝通的弟子，與孔子平分秋色，佔了魯國一半人那麼多。他站著的時候，不施教。但坐著的時候，卻不發議論。不過，弟子們都是空手前往，但滿載而歸。是不是真有這種不言之教，無形中使人內心成形的嗎？他到底是何種樣的人呢？」

 

There was a crippled man in the state of Lu(魯國), his name is Wang Tai(王駘). The number of disciples that travels and communicates with him is comparable with Confucius.

 

Chang Ji(常季) asked Confucius: "Wang Tai is only a crippled man. His disciples deprived the disciples of Confucius by occupying half of the population in the state of Lu. When he stands up, he doesn't teach. When he sits down, he doesn't lecture. However, the students went to him empty handed, but left with their hands full. Is there really such a thing which teaching without words, is possible for the imperception to be perceptible in the heart...??? What kind of person is he...???"

 

There is a ridicule in the parable. It tells allot.

Why is ZZ always picking on Confucius....??? Anyone have any idea...???

 

Hint:

ZZ was trying to distinguish the difference in Philosophy between a Taoist and a Confucian.

Edited November 23, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Sorry........Double entry

Edited November 23, 2011 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

　

There is a ridicule in the parable. It tells allot.

Why is ZZ always picking on Confucius....??? Anyone have any idea...???

 

Hint:

ZZ was trying to distinguish the difference in Philosophy between a Taoist and a Confucian.

 

In short, daoists have always flown in the face of convention and cultivated spontaneous non-doings, and in the opinion of many daoists in Chuang Tzu's time, confucianism represented convention itself, and contrived doings. hehehe Confucius was rumored to have counted out the number of grains of rice he would cook for dinner, and other such things, so maybe he was anal retentive or OCD, which annoyed the daoists to no end.

 

You can still see traces of the same thinking here and now, when buddhists start going on about this doctrine or that concept, and it bugs the traditional daoist types.

[Marblehead]

 

There is a ridicule in the parable. It tells allot.

Why is ZZ always picking on Confucius....??? Anyone have any idea...???

 

Hint:

ZZ was trying to distinguish the difference in Philosophy between a Taoist and a Confucian.

 

And besides, he just didn't like him. Hehehe.

 

(Chuang Tzu spoke often about how he disliked the structured morality (virtue) of Confucius.)

[Marblehead]

... when buddhists start going on about this doctrine or that concept, and it bugs the traditional daoist types.

 

I have been rightly accused!!!

[ChiDragon]

At the beginning of this chapter, the introduction was a big insult to Confucius. ZZ portrayed Wang Tai as a handicapped teacher in the State of Lu; and boasted that even he is even better than Confucius. It was because in the dialogue ZZ says that even Confucius wants to be a student of Wang Tai. The reason that ZZ placed Wag Tai in the state of Lu is because that Lu was the home state of Confucius.

 

At one time, there was a limping person went over to Confucius and asked to be one of his disciples. However, Confucius refused by telling him that it was not easy to be a scholar for a handicapped person. His main reason was that most people do not respect handicapped persons. Later, Confucius regretted that he told that to the limped person and accepted him as his disciple after his brother came over and cursed at Confucius.

 

In this parable, does anyone think that ZZ was using Wang Tai to portray himself and it was a territorial invasion as a big insult to Confucius...???

[Marblehead]

In this parable, does anyone think that ZZ was using Wang Tai to portray himself and it was a territorial invasion as a big insult to Confucius...???

 

The probability is extremely likely, IMO.

[konchog uma]

The probability is extremely likely, IMO.

 

i think daoists of the Chuang lineage (because i dont think Chuang himself wrote any of what we're reading now) took any opportunity they could to insult Confucianists and point out the absurdity they perceived in confucian way of life

[ChiDragon]

i think daoists of the Chuang lineage (because i dont think Chuang himself wrote any of what we're reading now) took any opportunity they could to insult Confucianists and point out the absurdity they perceived in confucian way of life

 

It was known that the first six seven chapters were written by ZhunagTze but the others are like you said. In your opinion, based on your knowledge, do you think what the Taoist of the Chuang lineage wrote reflects Chuang's thinking...???

Edited November 25, 2011 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

It was known that the first six chapters were written by ZhunagTze but the others are like you said. In your opinion, based on your knowledge, do you think what the Taoist of the Chuang lineage wrote reflects Chuang's thinking...???

 

Well, i think any lineage is a sort of passing on of knowledge, but i don't know if its necessarily a passing on of opinions. So probably some of Chuang's thinking was there, but i can't say how much. I don't know much about that line of students except by reading the writings.

 

If anything, just judging by the text, i think Chuang had less to say about Confucius, he just stuck to principles. Its his students that had all that to say..

 

I have read differing opinions about how much of it he actually wrote. I am pretty sure I have read somewhere that of the body of work attributed to him, it seems likely that only the inner chapters can be attributed to him, so some people think that the book is mostly the work of his students. The chapters number 7, but that was what Legge called chapter 1, various sections. Or maybe thats just Marblehead's way of delineating it. either way, out of 33 chapters, most scholars seem to agree that he wrote only the first 7.

[Marblehead]

Or maybe thats just Marblehead's way of delineating it. either way, out of 33 chapters, most scholars seem to agree that he wrote only the first 7.

 

Hehehe. I am holding true to Legge's chapter numbering although I am breaking the chapters down.

 

And I agree that it is commonly understood that Chuang Tzu wrote the Inner Chapter (1 - 7), that his students wrote the Outer Chapters and the Miscellaneous Chapters and the Conversations are an unidentifiable collection.

 

To add:

 

So yes, in the first 7 chapters we see a lot of disagreeing with Confucian ideals. Other stories not speaking directly of Confucius support the thought that Chuang Tzu thought very little of Confucian "Virtue".

Edited November 25, 2011 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

　　仲尼曰：「夫子，聖人也。丘也直後而未往耳。丘將以為師，而況不若丘者乎！奚魯國！丘將引天下而與從之。」

 

（意譯）

孔子說：「老師是聖人呢。我太過落後，還沒有去請教他罷了。我將以他為師，何況不及我的人呢？我將率領天下的人去跟從他，又何止魯國啊。」

 

English translation:

Confucius said: "The teacher(Wang Tai) is a sage. I was so regressive, I haven't paid a visit to him for advice yet. I will have him as my teacher, and those who are not equal to me! I will lead them to follow him, not just the people in the State of Lu."

 

Commentary:

It was know that Confucius was a sage. However, in the parable, ZZ portrayed that Confucius with a little humbleness but he sure putting Confucius down by saying the he was less sagacious than ZZ himself.

[ChiDragon]

oops.........double entry

Edited December 1, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

　　常季曰：「彼兀者也，而王先生，其與庸亦遠矣。若然者，其用心也獨若之何？」

 

（意譯）

常季說：「他是斷足的人，但比先生還要優勝，那麼，他一定是跟平庸的人相距極遠的了。如果真是這樣，他是怎樣用心的呢？」

 

Chang Ji said: "He is just a crippled person, but Mr. Wang is exceeded you. He is must far off better than the average people. If that is so, then, how did he use his effort for that?"

 

　　仲尼曰：「死生亦大矣，而不得與之變；雖天地覆墜，亦將不與之遺。審乎無而不與物遷，命物之化而守其宗也。」

　　常季曰：「何謂也？」

　　仲尼曰：「自其異者視之，肝膽楚越也；自其同者視之，萬物皆一也。夫若然者，且不知耳目之所宜，而遊心乎德之和；物視其所一而不見其所喪，視喪其足猶遺土也。」

 

（意譯）

孔子說：「死生也算是大事了，但不可能影響他。雖然天翻地覆，他也不會跟著一起毀滅。他處於無待的境界，但不會跟隨萬物變化。因為他能守著萬物的樞紐，主宰萬物的變化。」

常季說：「這是甚麼意思呢？」

孔子說：「從不同的方面去看，肝和膽的距離，就好像楚國和越國那樣遙遠。但從相同的方面去看，萬物是一體的。如果是這樣，耳目等功用，就是不需要理會的。只留意心中的「德」怎樣「和」於萬物就可以了。因為萬物一體，所以，不會見到有甚麼喪失的。失了一條腿，就如同失落一點泥塵罷了。

 

Confucius said: "Life and death are a big issue, but it doesn't influence him, it won't destroy him along with that. He dwell in a place with no expectation, but he won't be effected along with the changes with all things. It was because he has been guarding the center of all things, and manipulating all the changes."

 

Chang Ji said: "What was that mean?"

 

Confucius said: "If you were looking from a different direction, you will see the distance between the liver and gallbladder. It would be far apart like the states between Chu and Viet. However, if you are looking in the same direction, then, you will see all things as one unity. If it is so, then one can ignore the function of the ears and eyes. It would be fine by just paying close attention to how the "Te" in harmony with all things within the heart. Because of the integral of all things as one unity, therefore, one won't see any mischief. Loosing one leg, it would seem like lost a little dirty dust.

 

 

Ref: http://zhuangzi-original.blogspot.com/2007/04/3-05.html

Edited December 1, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Confucius said: "If you were looking from a different direction, you will see the distance between the liver and gallbladder. It would be far apart like the states between Chu and Viet. However, if you are looking in the same direction, then, you will see all things as one unity. If it is so, then one can ignore the function of the ears and eyes. It would be fine by just paying close attention to how the "Te" in harmony with all things within the heart. Because of the integral of all things as one unity, therefore, one won't see any mischief. Loosing one leg, it would seem like lost a little dirty dust.

 

 

And I think that this speaks to the concept of being able to understand and live in the physical world where all things seem to be separate but yet realizing that all thing are a part of one unity.

[ChiDragon]

And I think that this speaks to the concept of being able to understand and live in the physical world where all things seem to be separate but yet realizing that all thing are a part of one unity.

 

Yes, the meaning of "one unity", 齊一, by ZZ was that one should look at all things equally rather than as a whole. ZZ was suggesting if one is looking things in different direction, then there will be an distinction between them. In order to see things equally, one must be looking at things in the same direction so there will be no difference between them. The concept behind this is that will give one harmony within the heart.

 

People were talking about cultivating the mind. The effect of cultivating the mind was originated from ZZ's idea here. In his thinking, to cultivate the mind, one must attain to a state of absolute harmony within the heart without any mental distraction. The openness of the mind must rely on the reasoning of the truth of the world. From the previous chapters, he stated that there should be no absolute difference between all things. However, people were viewing matters at a different angle; it was not necessary to insist their own point of view. Therefore, ZZ was suggesting that we shall be equal-heartedly in treating all the chaotic affairs in our society. This is how ZZ was recognized the basic fundamental principle in the world, it was also his point of view about the truth.

Edited November 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

　　常季曰：「彼為己。以其知得其心。以其心得其常心。物何為最之哉？」

 

（意譯）

常季說：「他不過是為了修為自己吧了。他是以「知」去得到「心」的道理。然後又用「心」去得到「常心」的道理。如果他僅僅是為了修為自己，那麼，眾人聚集到他那裡，又是為甚麼呢？」

 

In his self-cultivation," said Ch'ang Chi, "through knowl-

edge he attains mind, and through mind he attains eternal mind.

Why, then, do things gather about him?

 

English Translation:

Chang Ji said: "It was a kind of self-cultivation. The reasoning was obtained through knowledge plus the cultivation from the effort of self discipline. Then, it becomes a common principle in treating others as well. However, It was still only a self-cultivated kind of thing; but why during Chang Ji's cultivation there were so many people came to his school and learn from him..???"

[ChiDragon]

The story, here, that is cultivation is self discipline. A high cultivated person is well known without advertisement. People will treat him with respect and follow him. This reminds me of "Teaching without words, the formless become formed within the heart(不言之教, 無形而心成)"

[ChiDragon]

"People cannot see their reflections in running water," said

Confucius, "but in still water they can. Only stillness can still the

hosts who seek stillness. Of those who receive their destiny from

earth, only the pine and the arborvitae are correct—green

summer and winter . Of those who received their destiny from

heaven, only Yao and Shun were correct—at the head of the ten

thousand things. Fortunately, they could correct their own lives

and thereby correct a host of lives . The proof of the preservation

of primal strength is realized in fearlessness . A single courageous

warrior will heroically plunge into a mighty army . If a man who

seeks fame can do this out of personal ambition, how much more

so should one who takes heaven and earth as his palace and the

myriad things as his treasury, his trunk and limbs as a mere

lodging, his senses as phenomena; who treats as a whole all that

knowledge knows; and whose mind never dies! He would simply

pick a day and ascend to the heights. People may follow him, but

how would he be willing to make such things his business?"

 

仲尼曰：「1.人莫鑑於流水，而鑑於止水。唯止能止眾止。 2.受命於地，唯松柏獨也正，在冬夏青青﹔受命於天，唯堯舜獨也正，在萬物之首。 3.幸能正生，以正眾生。夫保始之徵，不懼之實，勇士一人，雄入於九軍。 4.將求名而能自要者，而猶若是，而況官天地、府萬物、直寓六骸、象耳目、一知之所知，而心未嘗死者乎！ 4.彼且擇日而登假，人則從是也。彼且何肯以物為事乎！」

 

Confucius said: "1. People cannot obtain an undeniable truth from constant changes like flowing water, but to be obtained from something that is not constantly changing like still water. One must insist upon the undeniable truth to convince oneself in order to convince others."

 

2. Those lives depend on Earth, only the pine trees can stand up straight' and they are green all winter and summer long(unchanged). We can see that there aren't many things that can be kept the normal conditions last too long. Those who were sent by heaven to govern, only Xun was maintained his righteousness and politically correct to keep the people in peace and harmony.

 

3. Fortunately, all things were assisted to developed normally was because of the righteousness. Therefore, if one looking at it microscopically, it was internal cultivation. From a practical point of view, it was bravery. It seems like a brave one charged into a battlefield to fight a thousand strong. Thus isn't one was seeking for fame...???

 

4. TBC.......

Edited December 5, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Confucius said: "1. People cannot obtain an undeniable truth from constant changes like flowing water, but to be obtained from something that is not constantly changing like still water. One must insist upon the undeniable truth to convince oneself in order to convince others."

 

TBC.......

 

I don't agree with that but I would have a difficult time explaining why. Something to do with looking at only one part of a picture.

[ChiDragon]

I don't agree with that but I would have a difficult time explaining why. Something to do with looking at only one part of a picture.

 

Isn't the undeniable truth is one, and only one, picture....???

 

Most people do not like to stay with the facts or the truth due to external influence with various temptation for their irresistible desire to believe what they wanted to believe.

 

The truth is the truth. What is the truth...??? The truth is something that is not arguable nor deniable beyond any reasonable doubt. Thus that was what ZZ meant by the undeniable truth.

Edited December 2, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

"Truth" is a very interesting topic from a chinese point of view... but truth does not have to be truth necessarily in the way often put forth (something that is not arguable nor deniable beyond any reasonable doubt). It can simply be of historical significance or lesson (even if based on apocryphal pieces). But truth is most often depicted based on the past (ie: look at the oft Confucian reference to the Sage-Kings, Yao and Shun). As if to say the past is but a picture of the present and future in regards to truth.

 

Whether ZZ's concept is likewise built off the described Confucian ideas mentioned in the previous posts I cannot really comment.

[ChiDragon]

Do you think that the Confucius ideas mentioned by Zhuang Zi were really from the heart of Confucius....???

Edited December 6, 2011 by ChiDragon