My first full lotus experiences

[FixXxer1846]

As several others, I've been paying attention to full lotus topics on the Tao Bums and in Google, because supposedly "20 minutes of full lotus equals four hours of any other meditation". Drew Hempel, once a student of Chunyi Lin, has been repeating this a million times. So it only makes sense to give it a try.

 

Not many people seem to have experimented with the full lotus, however, with many who are able to get into that position being in good health and never having paid any attention to the position's specific effects. I've only been able to find about a dozen first-hand, give-it-a-try postings on the internet. Interestingly, in (virtually?) every case the practitioner reports:

 

• "a difference".
  
• Better ability to focus and deepen the meditation.
  
• A change in the energy that is being felt.
  

So, finally, a couple of weeks ago I began practicing the full lotus myself. I was able to get into that position by the second day of trying, although even today it is definitely not a perfect full lotus with both ankles on top of the thighs. Often times, it is more of a "three-quarter lotus". Nevertheless, I definitely noticed "a difference", even with just 5 to 15 minutes of practice every day or every other day. Here they are:

 

• Felt like I was able to concentrate a bit deeper. Others have stated the same thing, but I'm not entirely sure of this aspect yet.
  
• My heart area has been a major problem area... lots of pain when focusing attention there and moving the palms in front of that area. That was mostly gone, but each time I moved into full lotus and concentrated even a little (in general, not on the chest!), I got an uncomfortable feeling in my chest area. The first few times, actually, I had major spasms in my arms and upper torso, after which the uncomfortable feeling in my chest went away a bit for a while. To me that's a clear indication of strong energy movement (know this from my early days of acupressure and focusing on the tan tien and other microcosmic orbit points).
  
• My nose has been cold for the past 10 years. Cured my hay fever a couple of months back, but the coldness remained. But soon after a few brief full lotus sessions, it seems my nose is getting far less cold in winter weather. It's actually feeling rather warm these last few weeks, which constantly surprises me. Not 100 percent sure yet, but there seems to be a change.
  

My initial conclusions on the full lotus (and to a lesser extent the half lotus and compared to just sitting or lying down Zhan Zhuang, microcosmic orbit and regular meditation):

 

• The common idea that meditation in full lotus is a "luxury" and only for added "stability" is incorrect.
  
• It definitely moves the energy in the body in a different way. It may actually cause some of the energy to rise, as Hempel has said. Got that indication a few times, immediately before feeling my heart. Interesting to know that, according to Wang Liping, the flow of the bladder channel is reversed by full lotus. Maybe this also goes with some of the other channels.
  
• Drew Hempel may be cooking his brains too much with all his full lotus and "O's at a D", but he seems to be on to something here.
  
• Full lotus facilitates healing, like Chunyi Lin has said. It's not just more efficient than other meditations/positions... it's actually more powerful and might be able to bring about changes in the meridian system and the body's fysiology that is hard to accomplish through other means.
  
• As Hempel said, it does seem to work (through an extent) without an empty mind (watching television, etc.). But it's more powerful when meditating, probably much more powerful.
  
• If your body and meridian system is healthy, you probably don't notice it that much. But I did. Everything with me points to a yang deficiency or blockage (plenty of libido, but still cold limbs and nose)... supposedly full lotus is ideal to raise this energy... we'll see. TDP/Moxa lamps and herbs didn't work in the past. ZZ/microcosmic orbit did, but only to an extent.
  

If I find more stuff I'll post it here. Meanwhile, if you have interesting full lotus experiences/info, post 'em here.

Edited November 24, 2011 by FixXxer1845

[Warrior Body Buddha Mind]

Full lotus blocks the energy in the legs and raises the energy upwards this maybe why your nose is not as cold and possibly cured your hay fever?

 

There are many ways to meditate and cultivate, full lotus isnt the be all and end all, but of course if you havent done it as you have now tried of course you will feel different effects. Most important about meditation is that you are comfortable!!!

 

Glad you experienced something new to your practice...

[Birch]

I read something somewhere online about FL bringing about its special effects due to pressure on the tail-bone. It's like that eye/heart link where your heart will automatically slow down if you put pressure on your eyelids, apparently.

 

Seems I'm not FL material yet:-)

[Taomeow]

Full lotus blocks the energy in the legs and raises the energy upwards

 

Since it's the position of the fetus in the womb, it is naturally designed not to block energy anywhere -- a quick look at the meridians chart would confirm this too. What blocks energy is muscle tensions, chronically contracted fascia, and misaligned skeletal structures. Full lotus done correctly goes a long way toward correcting these, straightening out the spine and improving the flow of communication between the upper and lower parts of the body and between the body and the brain. What one might perceive as discomfort is actually "input" of perceptions that was not available before due to this communication being chronically disrupted.

 

Most important about meditation is that you are comfortable!!!

 

I was told by a master of great attainment that meditation begins where comfort ends, and cultivation begins where pain starts. (Not the pain of a physiologically unsound position, of course, not the pain of damaging your body... the pain similar to that which you feel when your toes have been frozen numb and start thawing out when you get out of the cold and warmth begins to restore circulation. Having grown up in a notoriously cold country, I've often experienced this as a child...)

 

"Comfortable" is what you want to be at all other times, outside your meditation time, and meditation is your tool toward this goal. But a "comfortable meditation" is an oxymoron. Then again, it is very common in the West to say "meditation" when really meaning "relaxation."

[FixXxer1846]

Full lotus blocks the energy in the legs and raises the energy upwards this maybe why your nose is not as cold and possibly cured your hay fever?

 

I read something somewhere online about FL bringing about its special effects due to pressure on the tail-bone. It's like that eye/heart link where your heart will automatically slow down if you put pressure on your eyelids, apparently.

 

Because of a total lack of scientific evidence, I'm trying to feel and describe what is going in my body when doing full lotus - and ask for others to do the same. It does seem to raise some of the energy, but through which meridians? Don't know. But maybe we can feel what's happening if we all describe our experiences.

 

Full lotus didn't cure my hay fever, by the way. That was a combo of acupressure and adapted versions of Zhan Zhuang and microcosmic orbit. Now that the effects of these seem to have leveled off (don't like to do them sitting up with a ton of concentration), I tried the next stage... doing them in full lotus, of which 15-30 minutes is hopefully enough for a number of new breaktrhoughs.

[rodgerj]

Since it's the position of the fetus in the womb, it is naturally designed not to block energy anywhere -- a quick look at the meridians chart would confirm this too. What blocks energy is muscle tensions, chronically contracted fascia, and misaligned skeletal structures. Full lotus done correctly goes a long way toward correcting these, straightening out the spine and improving the flow of communication between the upper and lower parts of the body and between the body and the brain. What one might perceive as discomfort is actually "input" of perceptions that was not available before due to this communication being chronically disrupted.

 

 

Ok 'block' might not be the best choice of word but I think what Sifu Gary is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that it seals Yang from escaping into the earth as it has a tendency to run out of the legs. As a result the Yang then tends to stay higher in the body. The condition that is created by sitting in this posture also facilitates a better gathering of Yin. The posture as you know has many benefits besides all that and to make an important point, what happens energetically in that posture is also decided by the mediation/breathing/mudra your doing. In that posture your taint is as close to the earth and all five gates are pointing to heaven so of course Yang would naturally stay high.

 

I was told by a master of great attainment that meditation begins where comfort ends, and cultivation begins where pain starts. (Not the pain of a physiologically unsound position, of course, not the pain of damaging your body... the pain similar to that which you feel when your toes have been frozen numb and start thawing out when you get out of the cold and warmth begins to restore circulation. Having grown up in a notoriously cold country, I've often experienced this as a child...)

"Comfortable" is what you want to be at all other times, outside your meditation time, and meditation is your tool toward this goal. But a "comfortable meditation" is an oxymoron. Then again, it is very common in the West to say "meditation" when really meaning "relaxation."

 

Everything is mind so whatever gets your focus because as the great Qui-Gon Jinn said.. "Your focus determines your reality". FL is great but I agree with WBBM that it's not 'needed' or essential. The most simple is the most profound.

[taooneusa]

Edited December 31, 2011 by taooneusa

[taooneusa]

 

Anterior spinal artery <br>

Edited December 31, 2011 by taooneusa

[taooneusa]

..

Edited December 31, 2011 by taooneusa

[Taomeow]

it seals Yang from escaping into the earth as it has a tendency to run out of the legs. As a result the Yang then tends to stay higher in the body.

 

Well, given that yang naturally goes up and yin, down, yang stays higher in the body at all times (except in some alchemical practices where you reverse the flow) and does not run out of the legs into the earth, this direction being quite un-yang-ly. Yin runs down to the earth while yang runs up to heaven. There's much confusion about which position and practice does what because of all the doctrines giving yang a preferential treatment. Like, if it's good, it's gotta be yang. Whereas what you may be preventing from running out and into the ground when you sit is, of course, yin. Yin, however, does not dissipate as readily as yang does (that's why your body is not as flaky and restless as your mind -- I mean the generic "you" of course -- and does not change its shape as whimsically as your thoughts do). The process whereby you lose yin is yin-to-yang upward transformations underlying jing to qi to shen transformations. This is the business-as-usual process for anyone with an overblown neocortex and stunted body-mind communication. You want to reverse that in the systems of taoism I favor, and encourage it in other systems.

 

The condition that is created by sitting in this posture also facilitates a better gathering of Yin.

 

Yes. You sit (yin) in a primordial Xiantian position (yin) and, typically, do not encourage the random dissipation (yang activity) of your mind (yang) and that's the start.

 

The posture as you know has many benefits besides all that and to make an important point, what happens energetically in that posture is also decided by the mediation/breathing/mudra your doing.

 

Yes, that's exactly right.

 

Everything is mind so whatever gets your focus because as the great Qui-Gon Jinn said.. "Your focus determines your reality". FL is great but I agree with WBBM that it's not 'needed' or essential. The most simple is the most profound.

The FL is the most simple. It's just that we the "civilized" folks are distorted into all kinds of complications that complicate it. My daughter, e.g., could sit in a perfect lotus as a toddler and liked to swing from a bar and make a full lotus in the air when she was five or six. She couldn't do it anymore by middle school.

[deci belle]

That's so great!❤ I only did it once and found it a perfect way to just sit. It really is an effective technique.

 

But do resist the temptation to make a sport or career out of postures and formal meditation practices; not only are some people anatomically unsuited for that sort of gymnastics, the simple fact is that it is only a temporary expedient. One's personal best is selflessly aware.

[voidisyinyang]

o.k. so anyway this is drew hempel -- thanks for the mention. To stay on topic -- I just had my first phone healing from Chunyi Lin a few days ago. He said it is great that I sit in full lotus for several hours a day but until I store the energy in my lower tan tien then my transmissions will be weak. So it's not that I'm frying my brain. I actually knew this but storing up the energy was so difficult before since I kept getting chased down by others. haha.

 

Anyway have fun training and now I am no longer doing pineal gland "O at a Ds." I asked Chunyi Lin if it was o.k. that when I transmitted energy to females there was bliss. He said this is o.k. but again as long as I am not storing and building up the energy in my lower tan tien then my transmissions will be weak.

 

So as soon as I stopped my transmissions and focused on storing the energy again in my lower tan tien I was amazed at how much stronger my own internal magnetic fields were building up fast and also the bliss. haha. This was even better than doing the "O at a Ds" because it creates a field of energy protection around you as the focus is on storing the energy in the lower tan tien.

 

All praise to the spiritual masters. Peace out.

[voidisyinyang]

Oh yeah let's remember Chunyi Lin went full lotus for seven weeks non-stop in a cave in the mountains in China.

 

This place seems to be it as he names this mountain and the name of this master and the same master does the same long term cave meditation fasting and full lotus practice. http://qigongmaster.com

[Gerard]

IMO, full lotus is another fable of the Far East. For those who can maintain that posture for days to no end, great! For those who can't, just sit as comfortable as your body structure allows it and focus on the mind within the world, not as an abstract vehicle to another reality. Mindful meditation leads to enlightenment, not the "trendy" posture you adopt.

 

 

All the best.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Gerard

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

ah, drew hempel...welcome back, Rapscallion of the Full Lotus...

[mjjbecker]

Well, given that yang naturally goes up and yin, down, yang stays higher in the body at all times (except in some alchemical practices where you reverse the flow) and does not run out of the legs into the earth, this direction being quite un-yang-ly. Yin runs down to the earth while yang runs up to heaven. There's much confusion about which position and practice does what because of all the doctrines giving yang a preferential treatment. Like, if it's good, it's gotta be yang. Whereas what you may be preventing from running out and into the ground when you sit is, of course, yin. Yin, however, does not dissipate as readily as yang does (that's why your body is not as flaky and restless as your mind -- I mean the generic "you" of course -- and does not change its shape as whimsically as your thoughts do). The process whereby you lose yin is yin-to-yang upward transformations underlying jing to qi to shen transformations. This is the business-as-usual process for anyone with an overblown neocortex and stunted body-mind communication. You want to reverse that in the systems of taoism I favor, and encourage it in other systems.

 

 

 

Yes. You sit (yin) in a primordial Xiantian position (yin) and, typically, do not encourage the random dissipation (yang activity) of your mind (yang) and that's the start.

 

 

 

Yes, that's exactly right.

 

 

The FL is the most simple. It's just that we the "civilized" folks are distorted into all kinds of complications that complicate it. My daughter, e.g., could sit in a perfect lotus as a toddler and liked to swing from a bar and make a full lotus in the air when she was five or six. She couldn't do it anymore by middle school.

 

Roger is referencing neigong as it is taught within the Mo Pai method (and other neigong schools). The yin and yang qi are specifically yin-gravitational-qi and yang-solar-qi.

 

Within this specific reference, yang qi does in fact run down the legs and out of the body-unless it is prevented from doing so. When John Chang treated patients, he would ensure that they were grounded first. I acted as a ground more than once when I visited his home with Kosta.

 

I know that full lotus is the favoured meditational posture of several schools, the Mo Pai included.

[Jeremy]

When I managed to get into full lotus for the first time, I felt and heard lots of cracking and popping noises in the back of my neck. Energy traveling up to the head, I presume. I continued having these sensations as well as several nose bleeds during the few weeks of practicing full lotus. It eventually cleared up. I also practice Spring Forest Qigong.

 

My favorite effect of full lotus is that it keeps me warm. I practice weather acclimation by walking around in a short-sleeved t-shirt all year round, including below-freezing temps in winter. If I'm outside and stationary, I find that sitting in full lotus is amazingly effective for staying warm.

[Patrick Brown]

[Taomeow]

Roger is referencing neigong as it is taught within the Mo Pai method (and other neigong schools). The yin and yang qi are specifically yin-gravitational-qi and yang-solar-qi.

 

Within this specific reference, yang qi does in fact run down the legs and out of the body-unless it is prevented from doing so. When John Chang treated patients, he would ensure that they were grounded first. I acted as a ground more than once when I visited his home with Kosta.

 

I know that full lotus is the favoured meditational posture of several schools, the Mo Pai included.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[mjjbecker]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

You are welcome.

[FixXxer1846]

When I managed to get into full lotus for the first time, I felt and heard lots of cracking and popping noises in the back of my neck. Energy traveling up to the head, I presume. I continued having these sensations as well as several nose bleeds during the few weeks of practicing full lotus. It eventually cleared up. I also practice Spring Forest Qigong.

 

My favorite effect of full lotus is that it keeps me warm. I practice weather acclimation by walking around in a short-sleeved t-shirt all year round, including below-freezing temps in winter. If I'm outside and stationary, I find that sitting in full lotus is amazingly effective for staying warm.

 

This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Very interesting. Just today I was amazed that everybody I was standing outside with had it very cold. But I was comfortable and even my nose was pretty warm. Definitely will be keeping an eye on this.

 

I'm wondering if the full lotus is automatically giving a boost to the ren and du channels of the microcosmic orbit and possibly also other channels... I don't feel anything at the back, but that's not my major problem area (anymore).

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

You too, Drew. Probably will have a few follow-up questions, if you don't mind.

[voidisyinyang]

Roger is referencing neigong as it is taught within the Mo Pai method (and other neigong schools). The yin and yang qi are specifically yin-gravitational-qi and yang-solar-qi.

 

Within this specific reference, yang qi does in fact run down the legs and out of the body-unless it is prevented from doing so. When John Chang treated patients, he would ensure that they were grounded first. I acted as a ground more than once when I visited his home with Kosta.

 

I know that full lotus is the favoured meditational posture of several schools, the Mo Pai included.

 

Wow that's awesome you studied with John Chang. So when he says the perineum is the negative yin energy and the lower tan tien is the positive yang energy is he referring to storing up his internal jing energy and then converting it to chi and shen energy in the lower tan tien? John Chang says there is a great explosion when the negative meets the positive but I wasn't sure if he is relying on drawing in yin energy from the Earth more so than his own jing energy. So do you think John Chang relied on taking in the yin jing energy from the Earth? I know he does long full lotus meditation in the jungle but does he bring his wife with him? I mean is he storing up his jing energy during those meditations? When Chunyi Lin did his seven week cave full lotus meditation with no food, no water and no sleep then, of course, this was non-stop meditation. He said at first he was scared there would be a tiger maybe in the back of the cave but then when he went into full lotus and his third eye opened up then the cave completely had light shooting out of all the walls. haha. Then he traveled up into heaven during his meditation but he said his master kept an eye on them. So that's why they couldn't sleep also since the master would know.

 

Even though Chunyi Lin relies on full lotus he says he goes deeper into the small universe practice and the book "Taoist Yoga" also writes about the seven week fast meditation practice -- converting jing into chi and shen energy. Chunyi Lin has said that the full lotus will cause the small universe to happen automatically. As I stated when I did my intensive training with Chunyi Lin I was relying on the small universe plus the active standing exercises which are gentle, simple and powerful and then the sitting self concentration meditation. I was storing up the energy in the lower tan tien but when the electromagnetic fields were too strong then I saw ghosts visiting Chunyi Lin, I had telepathy, telekinesis and I pulled this old lady's spirit out of her skull without touching her. Then when I was about to do real astral travel the spacetime vortex of dizziness freaked me out and the book "Taoist Yoga" explained that I needed to store the spirit body in my lower tan tien until it was stronger. But I didn't know that at the time as I had not studied the book well enough. So I went too far too fast.

 

So at that time I could sit in full lotus for two hours at ease with my body filled with electromagnetic energy -- without any movement. But then I stopped practicing and I looked for answers and discovered Master Nan, Huai-chin explaining how most modern practitioners fall back into worldliness due to "heroic over-exurberance" by using their spiritual powers before stabilizing the third eye as fully opened. So then I kept sitting in full lotus but when I built up the energy I was getting chased by people who desired my energy. So then I started sitting in full lotus in public as pre-emptive defense. Then I accidentally had the "O at a D" transmission and after that I just kept doing the "O at a D" transmissions.

 

So when I did the transmissions I could sit in full lotus as long as I wanted but I don't build up my energy and the negative emotional jing energy around me is sucked into my perineum and is transduced by my organs and perceived by the pineal gland -- so I can tell if someone has a liver, lung, pancreas blockage, etc. But at the same time I am slowly losing my jing energy as I am only maintaining a normal healthy body if only I eat properly which is actually difficult to do as the food jing energy has to be digested differently than the emotional jing energy. So then I was fasting a lot as well but when I fasted it wasn't a bigu "energy feast" as I had not built up any jing energy nor stored any chi energy in my lower tan tien!

 

This was a big issue on the taobums -- whether I should be taking in "bad qi" and transforming it and so I kept researching this issue. For example in the Bushmen culture it is stated repeatedly that the healers do take in this sickness and then transform it out of them -- but not all of them do the healing this way. As Bill Bodri and Master Nan, Huai-chin state while the tantra practice of taking in other people's jing energy and then transmitting it back as chi energy will be healing and create bliss it is only limited to the samadhi of the lower realm of form. Then as Chunyi Lin confirmed in my phone healing that the energy transmissions will always be weak. I had reached this limit already in my practice -- I sat in full lotus non-stop for hours with females and then the bliss got so strong that it opened up the heart into an electromagnetic connection. But this was still a weak electromagnetic transmission compared to the earlier qi healing I had done.

[mantis]

Very interesting thread, I always love when the topic of full lotus comes up. I'm a very flexible individual and I can sit in full lotus, but it's a pain

[Birch]

Yey! Mr DH is back:-)

 

Nice to see!

[Neophyte]

I can sit in full lotus for longer than 40 minutes straight, and my rule is to sit in full lotus for at least twenty minutes every day, at the beginning of each daily meditation practice. Physically, it is the most comfortable physical position I've ever experienced: my body feels as if it's sitting amidst an electromagnetic cloud (it feels like a cozy cushion of energy within and around me), my mind is very focused: it's all an experience of "perfect bliss".

 

But can anyone answer this?:

 

I sit with my hands in the mudra given in Chapter 1 of Taoist Yoga: it is the "negative embracing the positive" and it closes the two gates of the hands (laogong). Is this the best best mudra to use when sitting in full lotus (it is the one I always use)?

 

Is it okay to violate the "24-Hour Rule", to sit in full-lotus? I will abide by that rule if I need to, but I like to sit in full lotus as often as I can.

 

When I sit in full lotus, I count my breaths, keeping my mind on my breathing at all costs. However, I also focus on my upper and lower tan-tien: sometimes simultaneously, sometimes alternating. I am doing well? What ought I focus on? (upper?, lower?, only breaths?, etc.)

 

Thanks fellow taobums!!