My first full lotus experiences

[voidisyinyang]

Curious to see that clump. I'll have to look up the spirulina diet. I always keep it in the house. Love it.

 

I studied spirulina -- the pigment converts sunlight to electricity -- like photovoltaics -- and magnesium of chlorophyll is a photoreceptor that creates the biophoton energy and the phytocenes in spirulina are proven to kill cancer. http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com/2011/06/nick-redferns-men-in-black-bonanza.html it's at the end of this blog post. Yeah I have green eyes so it keeps my eyes bright green. When I don't take it then my eye color is not as green. haha. Yeah also my dreams are brighter color as well. It's also got vitamin D and makes omega 3 and all that. The other thing about spirulina is there's no glucose conversion of something -- it gets digested directly by the mitochrondia instead of getting digested by the liver. So that was Christopher Hills big thing because he was an exercise junky. So when a person starts getting lactic acid and the muscles can't get energy he says if you eat spirulina that it doesn't happen because it converts to ATP or whatever right away. It gets into some fascinating digestion stuff there but it's a bit complicated dealing with oxidation, etc.

 

I bought three bottles last time at the cooperative -- and so I take more of it now especially in the winter since there's next to no sunlight in Minnesota. I mean I've been on the night schedule so I don't get out in the sun enough but it's changing now that the days are getting longer. Yeah I just realized that one of the bottles is missing -- I had them back in the storage room. haha. So I hope someone else is at least using that spirulina instead of being befuddled by it. haha. Maybe I only bought two bottles last time -- I think it's $15 a bottle. Pretty steep since they're small bottles. But one bottle lasts me a long time -- I just shake out some and it's -- it takes tons of water. So it goes a long way. Just like a big spoonful a day. I take the powder because the pills will not get digested sometimes -- better assimilation with the powder.

Edited January 5, 2012 by fulllotus

[Jox]

The book "Taoist Yoga" gives the details but it's an intense read so I tend to only read it when I feel like I really need inspiration...

 

Hi full lotus,

 

You mentions The book "Taoist Yoga" many times in this thread.

Does this mean, that in the book "TY" is a detailed description, "know how", of inner alchemical process? Is it real deal?...

 

 

Jox,

[voidisyinyang]

Hi full lotus,

 

You mentions The book "Taoist Yoga" many times in this thread.

Does this mean, that in the book "TY" is a detailed description, "know how", of inner alchemical process? Is it real deal?...

 

 

Jox,

 

Most definitely. My blog has the free download to read the book with the link here: http://fulllotusqigong.blogspot.com/2012/01/more-secrets-on-developing-vitality-chi.html

[Jox]

 

...What I actually do know is that nearly all Fourth Way schools out there(I am myself part of one)...

 

...I can certainly say that one session of Full Lotus MCO does heck of a lot more to my mind and body than years of intellectual study and self-observation...

 

May you share more about your Fourth Way system?

 

 

Jox,

[voidisyinyang]

May you share more about your Fourth Way system?

 

 

Jox,

 

Fourth Way is a term created by Gurdjieff who taught that the first three ways are the way of the yogi (mind yoga) and the way of the monk (bhakti yoga) and the way of the fakir (extreme hatha yoga). Gurdjieff then taught his own system that people have tried to follow and mostly people have set up "book clubs" discussing his ideas or else they maybe practice the dances he taught. haha. But Gurdjieff was really teaching Taoist Yoga as I argue in a couple articles I wrote on Gurdjieff http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/283-Gurdjieff-and-the-Triode-Amplifier.html and http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/259-How-Qigong-or-Taoist-Yoga-Explains-Gurdjieff.html

[Jetsun]

Fourth Way is a term created by Gurdjieff who taught that the first three ways are the way of the yogi (mind yoga) and the way of the monk (bhakti yoga) and the way of the fakir (extreme hatha yoga). Gurdjieff then taught his own system that people have tried to follow and mostly people have set up "book clubs" discussing his ideas or else they maybe practice the dances he taught. haha. But Gurdjieff was really teaching Taoist Yoga as I argue in a couple articles I wrote on Gurdjieff http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/283-Gurdjieff-and-the-Triode-Amplifier.html and http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/259-How-Qigong-or-Taoist-Yoga-Explains-Gurdjieff.html

 

He wasn't teaching Taoist Yoga, he didn't teach a fixed system which is why people have such problems following and understanding him. There are similarities to many different systems but nearly everyone has tried to claim he taught their system, Sufi's say he taught Sufism, people have said he taught a form of Tibetan Buddhism as well as others like Zoroastrianism, he talks about alchemy and immortality so some say it was Taoism, but Gurdjieff himself said that he taught a form of esoteric or original Christianity.

[voidisyinyang]

He wasn't teaching Taoist Yoga, he didn't teach a fixed system which is why people have such problems following and understanding him. There are similarities to many different systems but nearly everyone has tried to claim he taught their system, Sufi's say he taught Sufism, people have said he taught a form of Tibetan Buddhism as well as others like Zoroastrianism, he talks about alchemy and immortality so some say it was Taoism, but Gurdjieff himself said that he taught a form of esoteric or original Christianity.

 

Yeah my articles point out that yang is 2:3 as the Pythagorean Perfect Fifth which was taught as the Logos in esoteric Christianity -- so I am presenting original information - Gurdjieff's harmonics are explicitly based on the 2:3 ratio the same as Taoist Yoga. So he didn't use the "name" Taoist Yoga -- no. haha. What is the secret meaning? The Pythagorean ratio 2:3 is yang in Taoist Yoga. It's a bit of a jump to see the commonality of all these philosophies -- admittedly -- since music is not based on words. The followers of Gurdjieff are hung up on his words which is too bad.

[voidisyinyang]

 

 

 

http://www.nanhuaijin.org/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=4

 

Master Nan, Huai-chin in full lotus.

[FixXxer1846]

Drew, you wrote that you always get an internal climax 1,5 hours into you full lotus sessions. I was wondering if you also get this while sitting in full lotus when watching television or doing other stuff - i.e. not focusing on the tan tien or on emptiness. That brings up the next question: what do you focus on usually when you get those climaxes?

 

Thanks.

[chi 2012]

I would ask him on his blog since he doesn't post here anymore. Type Drew Hempel on google and it's the first one that shows up.

[mantis]

Still steadily adding 2 minutes a week, at 15 minutes now.

[FixXxer1846]

Maybe I will, we'll see. Prefer to have all the info in one topic. Maybe Drew has a temporary burnout or painful fingers from posting almost 250 lengthy posts a month.

 

Just checked out where you started from, Mantis:

 

Posted 25 November 2011 - 10:38 PM

Very interesting thread, I always love when the topic of full lotus comes up. I'm a very flexible individual and I can sit in full lotus, but it's a pain.

 

My own flexibility has hardly improved. One side is still quite a bit more flexible. Quit doing full lotus for a few weeks though. Tried it yesterday while watching Sons of Anarchy. Can't really enjoy anything when sitting in full lotus. But after 15 minutes I got my typical spasms again. Don't know if that's related to full lotus.

 

Did notice that soon after I began full lotus my nose felt a lot warmer. That went away again in recent weeks when not practicing. Will keep an eye on that too now that I'm gonna practice more again.

[FixXxer1846]

Damn, just now I'm looking for answers. Well, not to worry. I'll get Drew back... I summoned him once. I'll try again.

 

*Goes to woods, draws a circle, makes fire*

 

:ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

I conjure thee, O former disciple of Chunyi Lin!

I summon thee, eclectic expert of the full lotus!

I evoke thee from the corner of the room where you're meditating!

Come to us now!

 

Amen...

 

That should do it.

Edited January 22, 2012 by FixXxer1845

[Mark Foote]

Damn, just now I'm looking for answers. Well, not to worry. I'll get Drew back... I summoned him once. I'll try again.

 

*Goes to woods, draws a circle, makes fire*

 

:ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

I conjure thee, O former disciple of Chunyi Lin!

I summon thee, eclectic expert of the full lotus!

I evoke thee from the corner of the room where you're meditating!

Come to us now!

 

Amen...

 

That should do it.

 

"I'm sorry, the bum you've invoked is not available at this time. Press your luck to speak to some other Laosy bum, albeit one who doesn't sit more than 50 minutes at a stretch and who doesn't experience anything of climactic proportions while doing so."

 

Urk, you rang?

 

So on the flexibility front, maybe try the lotus on a Flyer:

 

 

I remember sailing down the parking lot at my local high school with an old sheet on a flexi in the wind,

that was really something.

 

but really, here are some instructions I find very useful, every day almost:

 

 

An empty hand grasps the hoe handle

Walking along, I ride the ox

The ox crosses the wooden bridge

The bridge is flowing, the water is still.

 

(“Zen’s Chinese Heritage”, Andy Ferguson, pg 2, ©2000 Andrew Ferguson)

 

So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front.

As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front;

as below, so above: as above, so below:

as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day.

Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy.

 

(Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society)

 

 

In my understanding the hoe handle is the sacrum. The empty hand works as Gautama described it, "as in front, so behind: as behind, so in front"; if I am conscious of activity in the lower abdominals, I look for consciousness of activity at the sacrum. The Gautamid described the feeling of the first meditative state as like gathering soap powder that been sprinkled around the inside of a cauldron into a ball, until the ball doesn't ooze; if I look to the state of mind I have waking up or falling asleep, and I am conscious in front as behind, behind as in front, then I can allow consciousness to fall where it may and observe activity initiated by the stretch of ligaments. I have to be waking up or falling asleep to observe activity initiated by the stretch of ligaments without startling myself and interrupting the reciprocity and balance of the action, and I have to accept what I feel into my sense of location, but this is no big deal; the effort is being where I am as I am where I am, to wake up or fall asleep.

 

I usually stretch my legs, first one and then the other, before I sit. I grab my toes or as close as I can get, and wait until I have the feeling to touch my head to my knee or whatever feels satisfactory. This usually requires specifically waiting for feeling for motion at the sacrum; the sacrum in my experience is constantly rotating forward and backward, and on other pivots as well. Yet, as behind, so before.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Mark Foote

[mantis]

At 20 minutes a day now, man those last few minutes are tough

 

Going to start meditating in the position once I break the 30 min mark, which should be in another ~3-4 wks.

[chi 2012]

At 20 minutes a day now, man those last few minutes are tough

 

Going to start meditating in the position once I break the 30 min mark, which should be in another ~3-4 wks.

You are one hour and ten minutes away from the internal female orgasms.

[mantis]

You are one hour and ten minutes away from the internal female orgasms.

 

Can't wait lol

[FixXxer1846]

At 20 minutes a day now, man those last few minutes are tough

 

Going to start meditating in the position once I break the 30 min mark, which should be in another ~3-4 wks.

 

I actually have been getting more flexible than I thought. When I tuck in my left leg first I can quite easily last 20-30 minutes. It's primarily the boredom (and a somewhat kyphotic back) that prevents me from sitting in this meditative posture. And I cheat, of course. My foot is kept in place relatively high because my pants prevent it from slipping down. Without pants this foot slides from my thigh. But this way works just fine.

 

The last few days I've just been lying down with a headphone on, listening to lengthy podcasts and interviews. While doing this I do Chunyi Lin's microcosmic orbit/small universe meditation. Occassionally I push the energy through the central channel. A really powerful meditation. After about a hour I start getting all kinds of spasms.

 

Seems to me that the longer you a meditation in one sitting, the more effective it is. So when Drew syas Chunyi Lin sat in full lotus for weeks, I actually think that's way more effective than doing (already very impressive) two hour full lotus sessions.

 

Did do full lotus combined with microcosmic orbit while leaning back in a few pillows and a big hard pillow underneath my feet. Very relax. Will have to wait if I notice a difference from just lying down regularly.

Edited February 1, 2012 by FixXxer1845

[mantis]

I'm quite flexible as well but years of weight training has given me cartoonesque thighs and butt. I could easily assume the lotus position without doing any kind of stretching, ever. Sitting there for a prolonged period of time, however, is another feat altogether.

[Mark Foote]

I'm quite flexible as well but years of weight training has given me cartoonesque thighs and butt. I could easily assume the lotus position without doing any kind of stretching, ever. Sitting there for a prolonged period of time, however, is another feat altogether.

 

You guys are really inspiring, as was Drew. Difficult to do nothing this morning; that's not surprising in the lotus, I suppose, but everything comes out of nothing or I'm nowhere. Some days I want to do something and it's not the same as waking up and falling asleep, and I watch my mind and wonder. The stretch comes out of absorption, but I can't make that happen. Nothing to do, tum de dum...

Edited February 2, 2012 by Mark Foote

[mantis]

I had the strangest thing happen last night while in the full lotus. I was sitting and was hurting, obviously, as I had forgot to sit on Friday. I was right around the ~18 minute mark or so and was seriously reconsidering sitting for the allotted 20 minutes. The strain of maintaining the position is really a unique kind of hurt and I thought of Wang Liping's requirements not to move (I was moving frantically) and what not etc. when all of a sudden the pain lessened by at least 80%.

 

I was dumbfounded and managed to easily sit the rest of time but I have absolutely no clue what happened. My legs had obviously become numb/asleep by then and they both basically "woke up."

[Mark Foote]

I had the strangest thing happen last night while in the full lotus. I was sitting and was hurting, obviously, as I had forgot to sit on Friday. I was right around the ~18 minute mark or so and was seriously reconsidering sitting for the allotted 20 minutes. The strain of maintaining the position is really a unique kind of hurt and I thought of Wang Liping's requirements not to move (I was moving frantically) and what not etc. when all of a sudden the pain lessened by at least 80%.

 

I was dumbfounded and managed to easily sit the rest of time but I have absolutely no clue what happened. My legs had obviously become numb/asleep by then and they both basically "woke up."

 

I don't know exactly what Wang Liping means by requiring that a person "not move", but let me hope that he refers to not exercising volition in the posture. One of my favorite translations was Carl Bielefeldt's "Dogen's Meditation Manuals", first edition, where he quoted Nanyue:

 

"If you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still."

 

Later on, Bielefeldt redacted this to:

 

"If you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting or reclining."

(Zazen Shin tranlation, Carl Bielefeldt, Stanford Soto Zen Text Project)

 

Point being that when I'm able to relax into the activity that is present in the lotus, activity that is present by virtue of the stretch of ligaments, then I can let my mind go and incorporate what I feel in my overall sense of location. The overall sense of location sits with feeling, and I wake up or fall asleep to the fact. Nothing I actually do, which is why "meditation is not sitting or reclining" is true, but I think "meditation is not sitting still" is better because it rebuts trying to hold still, which is simply more voluntary activity and stifling to the reciprocal innervation necessary to open feeling.

 

I suppose it could be said that necessity is the only real teacher in regards to these things, and the feeling of well-being you had has left a memory in the fascial tissue of your body that will draw you as a necessity to experience that again. Nothing that need be done about that, either:

 

"If you're studying seated buddha, buddha is no fixed mark." (Ibid)

[Taomeow]

I don't know exactly what Wang Liping means by requiring that a person "not move", but let me hope that he refers to not exercising volition in the posture.

 

Master Wang's method requires a kind of total surrender to stillness I have never experienced with other types of meditation. Not move means not move in the sense no li involved -- qi will move of course, and your spirit will move, that's the whole point. It will move down. It will move back where it comes from -- inward. It will move back home. It will move from the habitual too much movement/dispersion way to a settled, gathered, let-go-of-all-interference state. (Interpretation mine, I'm not quoting Master Wang, I'm explaining my take.)

 

I didn't get it at first. I joined a group of seasoned practitioners (or at least more seasoned than me -- I was the new cat on the block) and "not moving at all" was something I didn't, well, understand quite literally at first. So, my diaphragm contracted at one point and I, um, how shall I put it gently, I -- this is really embarrassing -- I burped. Twice, I think. Not obnoxiously, you know. Just discreetly. But, um, I let the muscles of my diaphragm move, I did. Also, when you sit like that, all kinds of fluids start flowing -- saliva, tears, and your nose starts running too, so I, um, blew my nose at one point when it became too much, and also wiped the tears a couple of times. So then. When the sitting was done. This is Moscow, they take no prisoners. Two fierce-looking women approached me and said, don't do this, you are shaking up the whole energy of the whole room, when you move, you move everybody, it's a connected unified field, get it? Don't move. Ever. Again. OK?

 

I was defiant for a while -- I didn't move, I did not!!! Yes you did, and made those sounds too, you blew your nose and wiped your tears and, oh horror, you burped? And you are saying you didn't move? You shook up the whole field. Next time, sit way back in the back and try -- no, not "try" -- just do or die. Don't move.

 

Well, the next time, I did better, but it took me the whole of the first seminar to learn to sit like a rock, which is what you are supposed to sit like. Very difficult. And very different from all those other ways to sit that you've described. Different goals. Different directions of where you want your spirit to go. That's what it's about... at least at this point of my discernment.

[Friend]

Taomeow you moved, but well when those females been moved by you, then they sitting very unstable I think they should learn from Nekomata to do Horse Stance first on a Rainbowpony.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow you moved, but well when those females been moved by you, then they sitting very unstable I think they should learn from Nekomata to do Horse Stance first on a Rainbowpony.

 

You are right! Yes, the truly stable practitioners actually rebutted them and were trying to tell them they are to mind THEIR stability, not mine.