konchog uma Posted November 25, 2011 I have some questions about refining qi to shen, since i have been building qi. I would like to continue on with the cultivation towards the source, and having never really properly understood the alchemy of refining qi to shen, i hope someone can point me in the direction of a good book or two. I have questions about these books in particular, if anyone recommends one or the other. I am leaning towards Healing Promise of Qi personally. Thanks for your feedback. Foundations of Internal Alchemy: The Taoist Practice of Neidan by Wang Mu http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0984308253/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_g14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0N785PWE66C0DBXC0270&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 Internal Alchemy by Livia Kohn and Robin Wang http://www.amazon.com/Internal-Alchemy-Kohn/dp/1931483116/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322188099&sr=1-3 The Healing Promise of Qi: Creating Extraordinary Wellness Through Qigong and Tai Chi http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Promise-Qi-Creating-Extraordinary/dp/0809295288/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322188226&sr=1-10 If anyone has another book in mind, in which is listed some techniques for refining qi to shen, i would appreciate that. Or, if anyone wants to tell me in their own words about what is happening at the MDT level (or elsewhere) when this is done, OR direct me to some good threads from the past, OR anything else helpful, you have my gratitude. Thank you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted November 25, 2011 Jing is Kundalini Chi is Jing in motion Shen is Chi Enlightened There are three types of chi, nei wei and shen Nei internal, Wei external and Shen the ultimate chi of the universe It's a lot better then the first two You can control your inner and outer chi, imagine what you can do when you are fully realized as the part of the whole of it Can't really give the technique I'm using but go for what strengthens the 8 extraordinary channels, more painful the better Become one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) Jing is Kundalini Chi is Jing in motion Shen is Chi Enlightened Jing is activated by desire; Chi is activated by thought; Shen is unrefined elixir. Shen is an element of the organization after the dichotomy of yin and yang. Sinfest is working with energy. Essence is open from beginning to end. You are enlightened right now, but don't know it. Just maintain the subtle awareness that refining vitality into energy into spirit is not about energy work. Spirit is immaterial. This is nopsychological awareness, no different than the immediate knowledge employed by your sense faculties. Habitual discriminatory consciousness is interrupted when refined spirit is emptied. If you are using energy, you are stuck in energy. Using essence itself; this is where you end up. Seeing esence, there is no person— only awareness. Refining vitality is stilling vitality, forgetting feelings. When refining energy, thoughts are forgotten. When refining spirit, open sincerity is empty; other is the host and the self is the guest. At the right time, an aperture opens in cosmic space and one sees the original face. It is not something one does deliberately. From beginning to end, one maintains a subtle awareness open and sincere— free of intellectualism and cloying feelings of self and other. It is a natural process void of imagination. Not using the body; not using mind, responding to conditions without being seduced by phenomena, there is a reversal that no one knows, only you. Books are no different than guitar amps— older is usually better— don't rule out any of the Cleary translations of the Complete Reality tradition including his translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower. One can always go back and dabble in the inner energy work; life is short. The truth is, after seeing essence, inner alchemy is spontaneous. Don't mix up the order— refinement reverses and takes over the killing energy of created cycles. Internal work is still work. This is ancillary to the essential function of the celestial design. It is a matter of how you are seeing reality right now. What is easy to come by is hard to work with— that's why Sinfest can't say. What is hard to come by is easy to work with. Pain being gain is fallacious— this is malpractice. There are no promises; there is no thing. No one knows this. This means knowledge is impersonal; awareness is selfless. Ultimately this Shen is discarded like so much residue; only then one enters the tao in reality. (ed note: removed "not" from "Pain not being gain…") Edited November 25, 2011 by deci belle 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted November 25, 2011 Funny how Shen neither internal or external A rock can't change how river flows but maybe it can let the river change it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjjbecker Posted November 25, 2011 I have some questions about refining qi to shen, since i have been building qi. I would like to continue on with the cultivation towards the source, and having never really properly understood the alchemy of refining qi to shen, i hope someone can point me in the direction of a good book or two. I have questions about these books in particular, if anyone recommends one or the other. I am leaning towards Healing Promise of Qi personally. Thanks for your feedback. If anyone has another book in mind, in which is listed some techniques for refining qi to shen, i would appreciate that. Or, if anyone wants to tell me in their own words about what is happening at the MDT level (or elsewhere) when this is done, OR direct me to some good threads from the past, OR anything else helpful, you have my gratitude. Thank you! I don't believe any book can help with this. Only the correct practice of a method taught by a teacher that truly understands what they are doing. There are a few good teachers and methods around. In this my own opinion is well known-I favour Michael Lomax and the Stillness Movement method. Others have their own choices. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted November 25, 2011 Funny how Shen neither internal or external A rock can't change how river flows but maybe it can let the river change it Actually, it is not funny at all, that isn't why it hurts, hmmm?❤ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted November 25, 2011 Only the correct practice of a method taught by a teacher that truly understands what they are doing. See essence on your own, then seek a teacher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted November 25, 2011 My experience of shen is best described as 'wakefulness'. I really like Daoist Nei Gong by Damo Mitchell. Open to new ideas and methods, always. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted November 25, 2011 This is nopsychological awareness, no different than the immediate knowledge employed by your sense faculties. Habitual discriminatory consciousness is interrupted when refined spirit is emptied. thank you so much! I don't consider perception to be a matter of mind as much as it is a matter of spirit. So i feel right in line with your advice. You said a lot that resonated with me, i guess i'll just quote that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted November 25, 2011 I don't believe any book can help with this. Only the correct practice of a method taught by a teacher that truly understands what they are doing. There are a few good teachers and methods around. In this my own opinion is well known-I favour Michael Lomax and the Stillness Movement method. Others have their own choices. i study qigong under a ch'an practitioner. He talks about regulating shen. I would have asked him tonight, but its a holiday, so no class. Thank you for your advice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) I asked my teacher about this recently but I hesitate to write about it. I do practices that follow a different model then what I percieve most doing here. Get with an authentic Tao teacher. Follow what he or she has to say. Don't waste time if your really interested. Edited November 25, 2011 by Cameron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted November 25, 2011 ps. If you already have a good teacher of Chan Buddhism that should give you the answers your looking for. I studied briefly with a Zen Master in Korea who certainly had answers to all these questions. But for myself, I am well along the Kunlun/Maoshan path so didn't think studying seriously under a Zen(Chan)master would do it justice. Rather just confuse myself. But a good system taughtby a Master should include all these elements imo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted November 25, 2011 I asked my teacher about this recently but I hesitate to write about it. I do practices that follow a different model then what I percieve most doing here. Get with an authentic Tao teacher. Follow what he or she has to say. Don't waste time if your really interested. Yeah, but then one is in danger of discovering that "refining qi to shen" is like "refining a forest to a shopping mall." Many a noodle would be fried! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted November 25, 2011 I always get a kick out of when I mention to any of my "normal" friends that I didn't sleep for a month after getting transmission from my teacher. The last time I saw him in person in Hawaii he said "You have to put the capstone on the pyramid." If I have to conceptualize the alchemy of Maoshan it's something like "Ok, this is what you really are, now you have some time so use these methods to burn off your endless ignorance and shit" Or something like that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted November 25, 2011 Since we are at it, I have a question. How many people feel that they have really opened up the microcosmic orbit? I mean REALLY opened it. From my limited understanding this would be a basic goal in cultivation in either the fire or water path. Following the water path as taught in Max's Kunlun school, I don't feel I am even close yet but see the path. And am happily dissolving mountains of shit and trauma Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjjbecker Posted November 25, 2011 i study qigong under a ch'an practitioner. He talks about regulating shen. I would have asked him tonight, but its a holiday, so no class. Thank you for your advice. You are welcome. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted November 25, 2011 See essence on your own, then seek a teacher. Seek essence on your own, then see a teacher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeiChuan Posted November 25, 2011 Jing is Kundalini Chi is Jing in motion Shen is Chi Enlightened There are three types of chi, nei wei and shen Nei internal, Wei external and Shen the ultimate chi of the universe It's a lot better then the first two You can control your inner and outer chi, imagine what you can do when you are fully realized as the part of the whole of it Can't really give the technique I'm using but go for what strengthens the 8 extraordinary channels, more painful the better Become one It's funny, just by what you say I know what practices you do. I don't mean that as a bad thing. You know what you're practicing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted November 25, 2011 Since we are at it, I have a question. How many people feel that they have really opened up the microcosmic orbit? I mean REALLY opened it. You're asking the question I wanted to ask yesterday for me hmm... Yes It's funny, just by what you say I know what practices you do. I don't mean that as a bad thing. You know what you're practicing. I know you know Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeiChuan Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) You're asking the question I wanted to ask yesterday for me hmm... Yes I know you know Touche Edited November 25, 2011 by NeiChuan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9th Posted November 25, 2011 I would like to continue on with the cultivation towards the source, and having never really properly understood the alchemy of refining qi to shen, i hope someone can point me in the direction It would be of great help for you to learn how to mend the fabric of space-time, which would of course require it to be punctured, ripped, torn, worn through, or otherwise broken. Since there is no other way to make your offering to the way unless you access that opening, it is all kept in the family of practice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted November 25, 2011 It would be of great help for you to learn how to mend the fabric of space-time, which would of course require it to be punctured, ripped, torn, worn through, or otherwise broken. Since there is no other way to make your offering to the way unless you access that opening, it is all kept in the family of practice. thanks i can mend some spacetime but not all of it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9th Posted November 25, 2011 thanks i can mend some spacetime but not all of it Then why did you ask about refining energy to begin with? You already know how. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted November 26, 2011 Then why did you ask about refining energy to begin with? You already know how. um thanks again. I think i'll stick with the instruction of a master, or at least guidance from a good book. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9th Posted November 26, 2011 um thanks again. I think i'll stick with the instruction of a master, or at least guidance from a good book. It may be more productive to plant crops in the springtime and harvest them in the fall, rather than the other way around. Or perhaps not? Ultimately it's your call, regardless of how much instruction, guidance, teachings, and related ephemera you have accumulated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
