Refining Qi to Shen

[konchog uma]

This corresponds somewhat to what my master teaches.

 

In addition to the concept of Shen which is the essential light of the body that infuses the material aspect with "life", in the sense of being attacted to it. Mental illness, for example, is demaracted with a dispersal of the Shen, so that it is not allowed back into the system, and instead is located out of the body, and is leaking constantly, causing additional problems and decay.

 

So any kind of dis-embodiment, dis-association, dis-empowerment, and even ordinary dis-ease is actually a blocking of the light from re-entering the body, or a dispersal of the light so that it is disintegrated. Any real healing from a master is done on the Shen level, working with cleaning the space and uniting the scattered shen back into the body almost like pulling a kite back to it's owner.

 

h

 

that is very fascinating, thank you!

[mrtiger]

I have some questions about refining qi to shen, since i have been building qi. I would like to continue on with the cultivation towards the source, and having never really properly understood the alchemy of refining qi to shen, i hope someone can point me in the direction of a good book or two. I have questions about these books in particular, if anyone recommends one or the other. I am leaning towards Healing Promise of Qi personally. Thanks for your feedback.

 

Foundations of Internal Alchemy: The Taoist Practice of Neidan by Wang Mu

http://www.amazon.co...&pf_rd_i=507846

 

Internal Alchemy by Livia Kohn and Robin Wang

http://www.amazon.co...22188099&sr=1-3

 

The Healing Promise of Qi: Creating Extraordinary Wellness Through Qigong and Tai Chi

http://www.amazon.co...2188226&sr=1-10

 

If anyone has another book in mind, in which is listed some techniques for refining qi to shen, i would appreciate that. Or, if anyone wants to tell me in their own words about what is happening at the MDT level (or elsewhere) when this is done, OR direct me to some good threads from the past, OR anything else helpful, you have my gratitude. Thank you!

 

Did you ever read any of these books?

 

What was the verdict?

 

(I'm thinking of getting Foundations of Internal Alchemy but wondering if it's too advanced for me).

[konchog uma]

Did you ever read any of these books?

 

What was the verdict?

 

(I'm thinking of getting Foundations of Internal Alchemy but wondering if it's too advanced for me).

 

i read foundations of alchemy, and healing promise of qi

 

i liked foundations a lot but yes its advanced. its full of good insights into the metaphoric language of the classics tho. I recommend it. Healing promise.. not my cuppa. I recommend Dr Yang Jwing Ming's Root of Chinese ChiKung if you haven't already read it. It gives a good beginning analysis of shen and how to begin working with it.

 

Unfortunately i didnt find what i needed in regard to qi-shen conversion in a book. So maybe its in the second book, the one i didn't read, but i had to ask my teacher and get a practice from him. I can't sit underwater or walk on fire yet, but when i can i'll come back here and teach the technique

[mrtiger]

i read foundations of alchemy, and healing promise of qi

 

i liked foundations a lot but yes its advanced. its full of good insights into the metaphoric language of the classics tho. I recommend it. Healing promise.. not my cuppa. I recommend Dr Yang Jwing Ming's Root of Chinese ChiKung if you haven't already read it. It gives a good beginning analysis of shen and how to begin working with it.

 

Unfortunately i didnt find what i needed in regard to qi-shen conversion in a book. So maybe its in the second book, the one i didn't read, but i had to ask my teacher and get a practice from him. I can't sit underwater or walk on fire yet, but when i can i'll come back here and teach the technique

 

Ah I have Dr Yang Jwing Ming's book. It's very good. I've just been dipping into it.

 

He sidesteps the sexual issue though.

 

I'm really looking for something that has some really solid advice on the retention issue.

[konchog uma]

Ah I have Dr Yang Jwing Ming's book. It's very good. I've just been dipping into it.

 

He sidesteps the sexual issue though.

 

I'm really looking for something that has some really solid advice on the retention issue.

 

yeah he doesnt talk about retention

 

have you read hsi lai's sexual teachigns of the jade dragon?

 

and allow me to once again tout the benefits of owning a copy of daniel reid's tao of health sex and longevity

 

best wishes to you!

[mrtiger]

yeah he doesnt talk about retention

 

have you read hsi lai's sexual teachigns of the jade dragon?

 

and allow me to once again tout the benefits of owning a copy of daniel reid's tao of health sex and longevity

 

best wishes to you!

 

I've not read either.

 

Which one would you recommend first?

 

I'm really looking for something sensible to get me started on retention. (I have Mantak Chia's book but I've decided not to go down that path).

 

I'm not looking for some amazing Kundalini type experience, just some gentle advice on how I might conserve my jing and (ideally) work that into a relationship.

[flowing hands]

I have some questions about refining qi to shen, since i have been building qi. I would like to continue on with the cultivation towards the source, and having never really properly understood the alchemy of refining qi to shen, i hope someone can point me in the direction of a good book or two. I have questions about these books in particular, if anyone recommends one or the other. I am leaning towards Healing Promise of Qi personally. Thanks for your feedback.

 

Foundations of Internal Alchemy: The Taoist Practice of Neidan by Wang Mu

http://www.amazon.co...&pf_rd_i=507846

 

Internal Alchemy by Livia Kohn and Robin Wang

http://www.amazon.co...22188099&sr=1-3

 

The Healing Promise of Qi: Creating Extraordinary Wellness Through Qigong and Tai Chi

http://www.amazon.co...2188226&sr=1-10

 

If anyone has another book in mind, in which is listed some techniques for refining qi to shen, i would appreciate that. Or, if anyone wants to tell me in their own words about what is happening at the MDT level (or elsewhere) when this is done, OR direct me to some good threads from the past, OR anything else helpful, you have my gratitude. Thank you!

 

Hello Anamatva,

 

You cannot refine Qi to shen, as I once said to you before, do not believe all that you read or what is taught. This is all I have to say to you.

 

Good luck!

[Ish]

Can you explain why you cant refine Qi to Shen?

[Aetherous]

I'm really looking for something sensible to get me started on retention. (I have Mantak Chia's book but I've decided not to go down that path).

 

I'm not looking for some amazing Kundalini type experience, just some gentle advice on how I might conserve my jing and (ideally) work that into a relationship.

 

You were asking someone else, but I'll throw in my two cents as well, in case you'd be interested. Some sources say that the 100 days really means no leaking energy (awareness), not just no ejaculation...so you're sitting in emptiness for 100 days. No thoughts, no sense distractions, just resting in a wakeful state. Of course, during this you are not masturbating, either. They say that as a result of this, if you have no desire for sex, food, and sleep, then you're doing well. This info comes from Nan Huai Chin.

 

Another approach is to go for periods of time without being attracted by women. If you have a single sexual thought, it automatically starts to create the sexual impulse physiologically. As a yogic source says, even the most holy man upon seeing an attractive woman, his "seed jumps". You try to minimize that as much as you can, by focusing on other things and basically avoiding women. You definitely avoid (for instance) attractive pictures of them on the internet...you might think, "it's okay if I look but not touch myself". I guarantee it will not work. The moment you look, or think or feel it, you have already lost.

 

Some say that you can masturbate and hold off on ejaculation, maybe forgoing it altogether during masturbation or sex, and that will benefit you. Some say that you should simultaneously draw the 'energies' up the spine to the crown. I do not say those things! I think they're dangerous practices with little real benefit. If you are sexually aroused, the energy produced is dirty in comparison to if you're not aroused at the time...you want to use the non-aroused. The spiritual benefits of temporarily avoiding sexuality come from other spiritual practices you do...what was previously physical sexuality transmutes into emotional positivity. Opening the heart, having the 'inner smile', causes the transformation of sexuality into spirituality naturally...eventually you will notice this.

 

Some yogis say that retention really means retention of the bindu, or maybe chemicals produced by the brain through specific meditation, not keeping the sexual fluids within the body necessarily. This idea is in the book Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati. That book also says that some use sexuality to achieve higher spiritual states, in a legitimate way (not just masturbating without ejaculating which does next to nothing).

 

Just some ideas for you to experiment with.

[mrtiger]

You were asking someone else, but I'll throw in my two cents as well, in case you'd be interested. Some sources say that the 100 days really means no leaking energy (awareness), not just no ejaculation...so you're sitting in emptiness for 100 days. No thoughts, no sense distractions, just resting in a wakeful state. Of course, during this you are not masturbating, either. They say that as a result of this, if you have no desire for sex, food, and sleep, then you're doing well. This info comes from Nan Huai Chin.

 

Another approach is to go for periods of time without being attracted by women. If you have a single sexual thought, it automatically starts to create the sexual impulse physiologically. As a yogic source says, even the most holy man upon seeing an attractive woman, his "seed jumps". You try to minimize that as much as you can, by focusing on other things and basically avoiding women. You definitely avoid (for instance) attractive pictures of them on the internet...you might think, "it's okay if I look but not touch myself". I guarantee it will not work. The moment you look, or think or feel it, you have already lost.

 

Some say that you can masturbate and hold off on ejaculation, maybe forgoing it altogether during masturbation or sex, and that will benefit you. Some say that you should simultaneously draw the 'energies' up the spine to the crown. I do not say those things! I think they're dangerous practices with little real benefit. If you are sexually aroused, the energy produced is dirty in comparison to if you're not aroused at the time...you want to use the non-aroused. The spiritual benefits of temporarily avoiding sexuality come from other spiritual practices you do...what was previously physical sexuality transmutes into emotional positivity. Opening the heart, having the 'inner smile', causes the transformation of sexuality into spirituality naturally...eventually you will notice this.

 

Some yogis say that retention really means retention of the bindu, or maybe chemicals produced by the brain through specific meditation, not keeping the sexual fluids within the body necessarily. This idea is in the book Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati. That book also says that some use sexuality to achieve higher spiritual states, in a legitimate way (not just masturbating without ejaculating which does next to nothing).

 

Just some ideas for you to experiment with.

 

Hi Turtle Shell, your 2 cents is much appreciated.

 

I'm quite happy to do some moderate retention with release say every couple of weeks, but beyond that seems unnatural to me unless you're looking for a rapid awakening.

 

As with regards to the 100 days. What actually happens after that?

 

I guess I'm looking for something balanced and sustainable rather than a crash diet.

 

Any thoughts?

[Aetherous]

I'm with you. Every one to two weeks is a good idea. I personally aim for one due to the study that was done on testosterone levels. If you're in a relationship and have a normal sex life, nothing too excessive or repressive, then you probably don't even have to worry about it. Sex can be rejuvenating rather than draining sometimes. Go by your symptoms...if you're tired or disturbed somehow, cut back, if you feel awesome, keep doing what you're doing.

 

Actually I don't know what happens after the 100 days, I suppose the same thing that happened before and during...I think it's just a period of time to train which is pretty meaningless. You could also say 90 days, or 200 days. It's an attempt to explain why the Taoist alchemists recommended the time period of 'building the foundation', and what the foundation actually is...explaining that it's not simply keeping semen inside of the body while you masturbate and have excessive thoughts and disturbed feelings. It's meditating to refill the jing, qi and shen...to not leak your energy in any way. To cultivate essential nature, in Taoist lingo.

[mrtiger]

I'm with you. Every one to two weeks is a good idea. I personally aim for one due to the study that was done on testosterone levels. If you're in a relationship and have a normal sex life, nothing too excessive or repressive, then you probably don't even have to worry about it. Sex can be rejuvenating rather than draining sometimes. Go by your symptoms...if you're tired or disturbed somehow, cut back, if you feel awesome, keep doing what you're doing.

 

Actually I don't know what happens after the 100 days, I suppose the same thing that happened before and during...I think it's just a period of time to train which is pretty meaningless. You could also say 90 days, or 200 days. It's an attempt to explain why the Taoist alchemists recommended the time period of 'building the foundation', and what the foundation actually is...explaining that it's not simply keeping semen inside of the body while you masturbate and have excessive thoughts and disturbed feelings. It's meditating to refill the jing, qi and shen...to not leak your energy in any way. To cultivate essential nature, in Taoist lingo.

 

Agree. Like blowing your nose, it just feels like it needs to come out sometimes.

 

I've been taking note of what happens when I manually release (that's the polite way of putting it!)

 

Weirdly I've notice I actually get a lot of energy going to my head. I get quite a hot face and have to take a shower.

 

Sex is of course a lot more rewarding, release or not...

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[exorcist_1699]

Some ideas to share:

 

1) Shen comes up after our having accumulated certain amount of jing and qi, yet it is not anything proceed linearly , but discretely or abruptly.

 

2) Reading Buddhist writings, especially Zen Buddhist ones, does help. Reading books about modern physics, especially those about the theory of Relativity and Quantum mechanics is also helpful .

 

 

3) It is after our having got some taste of that Shen, do we start to know what the Buddhist Sutra really talk . Of course, after that, any argument about whether Taoist or Buddhist way is better becomes meaningless, they are just different ways enable us to reach the same place/ level. Don't argue about whether going to Hong Kong by plane is better than by ship , just see what conditions you possess.. ( I do not work for the HK Tourist Association.. ^^)

 

4)There will be another Mind, different from our acquainted daily mind , arising...but thinking that all spiritual things must come out from our brain or upper part of our body is just some kind of bias.

 

5) Please understand that a split of our spirit ( not necessarily in a state of lunatic ) : say, a much clearer, condensed Mind looking back at a trivial, yin-typed mind / reasoning is possible ; please understand that an occasional, abrupt push of detaching our spirit from this physical body is possible ( building up our jing and qi is , in fact, building up the momentum for a Mind capable of leaving this body , notwithstanding we are unconscious of it ...); please understand that having totally dream-less sleeping or sleeplessness in nights , yet without effect on our energetic daytime life , is possible....

 

 

Or, it happens that there arises an unstoppable , compelling urge to preach whatever we believe in by extraordinary eloquence ( this, likely turn out to be something negative).

;

Or,an emergence of an extreme sharp Mind which unable us to understand whatever knowledge we are told ( Please note that Shen is a formless , content-less intelligence ,which can understand and accommodate whatever knowledge and ideas It is told, no matter where they come from , humans or aliens or other sources); Shen can understand our yin-typed mind , no matter you call it common sense or a scientific mind, easily ; conversely, hardly can we understand what Shen is even we are repeatedly told ...

 

 

these are symptoms telling you the coming appearance of Shen; Just like physical proofs: needless to eat for a long time, rebirth of fallen teeth..etc, these are also proofs in Taoist practice of our spiritual achievement . ( Of course,the Evil will also come accordingly , just like yin always accompanies yang ).

 

With past Taoist masters' experiences as its basis, with millions of TCM medical cases ( say near-death ones..) as basis, Taoist talks about this arena seems better than the Tibetan book of Death or those strange Zen's Ko'ans ( just my personal preference ^^)

Edited September 19, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[joeblast]

a good reply, exorcist.

 

before a certain stage, the body appropriates the resources it needs for survival. the idea of being able to refine qi into shen is a stage at which you are past that curve, in a manner of speaking. the jing is well nourished by the qi and the abundance comes forth - but so long as the body needs the resources, it uses it - a certain amount to function, a certain amount to the jing-store. the body is a reflection of the mind, so if you dont tame lustful thought, then you will have trouble with retention.

 

so in that regard, turtle shell is correct in that its not just ejaculation, its the whole ball of wax. Master Nan is very clear on that in the beginning of Working Towards Enlightenment and mentions the restraint of lustful thought as the first vinayana precept - the body is programmed to function in certain ways, and the way the mind is handled interfaces with those feedback mechanisms.

 

in order to integrate, you must experientially come to know what complete and utter stillness is - the first physical goal of which is dropping the breath below the threshold of turbulence in the air passageways. until you do that, your body doesnt really "disappear" for any appreciable amount of time. there really is quite an abundance that you notice once you can drop your bodily processes down to a low consumption state, the consumption begets neural activity which begets more consumption which begets more neural firing which feeds the thought-stream-energy, detracts from a calm relatively thought free mind. every time I've gone into a good level of that practice my metabolism has gone crazy, like I changed the coefficient of friction or something

 

what happens after 100 days is pretty much laid out in taoist yoga, it is presented in a context of age and how much vitality has already been lost. so after an initial 100 days, a certain amount of the vitality is restored - so extrapolate thusly until we reach the point at which the jing has been fully replenished, which necessarily means that the root (mind) has been tamed and the ever present awareness equates with a judicious usage of qi. once you're past that vitality-restoration curve only then can you really speak of refining qi to shen. I blather in the wind.

[mrtiger]

yeah he doesnt talk about retention

 

have you read hsi lai's sexual teachigns of the jade dragon?

 

and allow me to once again tout the benefits of owning a copy of daniel reid's tao of health sex and longevity

 

best wishes to you!

 

This book arrived today.

 

It looks great very nicely printed and easy to read.

 

Really looking forward to getting into this.