Is honor bullshit?

[Bloodywarrior]

What is Taoist view on honor?

 

If there's nothing good or bad surely there's no true honor.

 

When people do something good they always look to their peers to show them they're the more amazing person.

 

Is honor bullshit?

 

Backup your statement with actual proof. Don't give me your opinion. I don't care about your opinion. I want to know the Taoist view of honor.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Bloodywarrior

[Sloppy Zhang]

Backup your statement with actual proof. Don't give me your opinion. I don't care about your opinion. I want to know the Taoist view of honor.

 

Read the tao te ching

[Aetherous]

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 20

 

Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles.

 

Is there a difference between yes and no?

Is there a difference between good and evil?

Must I fear what others fear? What nonsence!

Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox.

In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace,

But I alone am drifting not knowing where I am.

Like a new-born babe before it learns to smile,

I am alone, without a place to go.

 

Other have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.

I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.

Other men are clear and bright,

But I alone am dim and weak.

Other men are sharp and clever,

But I alone am dull and stupid.

Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea.

Without direction, like the restless wind.

 

Everyone else is busy,

But I alone am aimless and depressed.

I am different.

I am nourished by the great mother.

 

(translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

I've also read that compassion, moderation and humility are the three treasures of the Tao.

 

Edit: just looked it up, apparently the three treasures are in Tao Te Ching 67.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Scotty

[Rainy_Day]

Well, the thing with Daoism is that different traditions have different views on things. There isn't one right answer.

 

Roughly speaking, on the one hand, Daoism generally is not into honour, if what you mean is picking fights with people for perceived insults or injuries. The classical texts like the Daodejing teach the benefits of meekness (as you may read from the commentators before me). On the other hand, the traditional orders definitely have set ways of doing things, including respect for your teachers and upholding the good name of your lineage. There is also the view that you must stand up for justice when necessary.

[Marblehead]

I must ask a question. Are you talking about honors that other people place upon us? If so then I would agree that the Taoist view is that it is bullshit.

 

However, if you are talking about the honor we place upon ourself by following the Way of Tao then I would suggest that this is a very important and real thing.

 

Just my opinion.

[JustARandomPanda]

However, if you are talking about the honor we place upon ourself by following the Way of Tao then I would suggest that this is a very important and real thing.

 

 

Just wanted to second that.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just wanted to second that.

 

3rd.

 

noting the difference between honour and integrity. Integrity does not depend on reputation, whereas honor has more to do with your position in society.

 

Probably close to a third of the chapters in Chuang Tzu mention the absurdity of status and reputation, which I think honor is linked to.

 

Having integrity and virtue without letting people on to the fact that you are anything above average is the Taoist way. "Keeping your treasure in a tattered sack" whereas honor requires that people don't think you can be disregarded. When you can be disregarded you are free to follow the way and not be bound by social conventions of normality.

[ChiDragon]

What is Taoist view on honor?

 

If there's nothing good or bad surely there's no true honor.

 

When people do something good they always look to their peers to show them they're the more amazing person.

 

Is honor bullshit?

 

Backup your statement with actual proof. Don't give me your opinion. I don't care about your opinion. I want to know the Taoist view of honor.

 

Ａ　Ｔaoist does not want any honor. It was all stated in the Tao Te Ching as proof.

[thelerner]

Ａ　Ｔaoist does not want any honor. It was all stated in the Tao Te Ching as proof.

Boom. Thats good. This may be venturing into opinion territory, but I think a Taoist doesn't seek eternal reward or 'honor', yet holds himself to high standards of honorable behavior; not based necessarily on an external code, but reflecting a natural Te'.

 

ie 'Honor' isn't something to die for, but to be lived out. You Honor the path by keeping your feet on it and moving forward.

[Nanashi]

This anecdote was recorded by western judo pioneer E. J. Harrison in his book The Fighting Spirit of Japan, published in 1913. The speaker is Sakujiro Yokoyama , one of the greatest judoka from the founding days of Kodokan Judo. This is a fascinating eye witness account to an actual duel of samurai.

 

---

 

"I can carry my memory back to the days when all samurai wore the two swords and used them as well when necessity arose. When quite a boy I accidentally witnessed an exciting duel to the death between a ronin [an unattached samurai] and three samurai. The struggle took place in the Kojimachi ward, in the neighbourhood of Kudan, where the Shokonsha now stands. Before proceeding with my narrative I ought to explain for the benefit of my foreign listeners [there were two of us present besides another Japanese gentleman] the usage that was commonly observed by the two-sworded men of the old feudal days, in order that the incident I am about to describe may be better understood. The sword of the samurai, as you know, was a possession valued higher than life itself, and if you touched a samurai's sword you touched his dignity. It was deemed an act of unpardonable rudeness in those days for one samurai to allow the tip of his scabbard to come into contact with the scabbard of another samurai as the men passed each other in the street; such an act was styled saya-ate {saya = scabbard, ate = to strike against}, and in the absence of a prompt apology from the offender a fight almost always ensued. The samurai carried two swords, the long and the short, which were thrust into the obi, or sash, on the left-hand side, in such a manner that the sheath of the longer weapon stuck out behind the owner's back. This being the case, it frequently happened, especially in a crowd, that two scabbards would touch each other without deliberate intent on either side, although samurai who were not looking for trouble of this kind always took the precaution to hold the swords with the point downward and as close to their sides as possible. But should a collision of this description occur, the parties could on no account allow it to pass unnoticed. One or both would at once demand satisfaction, and the challenge was rarely refused. The high sense of honour which prevailed among men of this class forbade them to shrink from the consequences of such an encounter.

 

So much by way of introduction. The episode I am going to describe arose in precisely this fashion. The parties to the duel were a ronin and three samurai, as I have already said. The ronin was rather shabbily dressed, and was evidently very poor. The sheath of his long sword was covered with cracks where the lacquer had been worn away through long use. He was a man of middle age. The three samurai were all stalwart men, and appeared to be under the influence of sake. They were the challengers. At first the ronin apologized, but the samurai insisted on a duel, and the ronin eventually accepted the challenge. By this time a large crowd had gathered, among which were many samurai, none of whom, however, ventured to interfere.

 

In accordance with custom, the combatants exchanged names and swords were unsheathed, the three samurai on one side facing their solitary opponent, with whom the sympathies of the onlookers evidently lay. The keen blades of the duelists glittered in the sun. The ronin, seemingly as calm as though engaged merely in a friendly fencing bout, advanced steadily with the point of his weapon directed against the samurai in the centre of the trio, and apparently indifferent to an attack on either flank. The samurai in the middle gave ground inch by inch and the ronin as surely stepped forward. Then the right-hand samurai, who thought he saw an opening, rushed to the attack, but the ronin, who had clearly anticipated this move, parried and with lightning rapidity cut his enemy down with a mortal blow. The left-hand samurai came on in his turn, but was treated in similar fashion, a single stroke felling him' to the ground bathed in blood. All this took almost less time than it takes to tell. The samurai in the centre, seeing the fate of his comrades, thought better of his first intention and took to his heels. The victorious ronin wiped his blood-stained sword in the coolest manner imaginable and returned it to its sheath. His feat was loudly applauded by the other samurai who had witnessed it. The ronin then repaired to the neighbouring magistrate's office to report the occurrence, as the law required."

[dwai]

What is Taoist view on honor?

 

If there's nothing good or bad surely there's no true honor.

 

When people do something good they always look to their peers to show them they're the more amazing person.

 

Is honor bullshit?

 

Backup your statement with actual proof. Don't give me your opinion. I don't care about your opinion. I want to know the Taoist view of honor.

 

Is your question coming from the vantage point of Japanese Bushido? ie Giri?

imho, there is no place for a concept like Giri in a Daoist's vocabulary...Giri is based on theories of filial piety and responsibility towards one's "Master". For a Daoist, there is "No Master" there's only Dao. In fact in Daoism, one is not even his/her own Master...he/she is free from all bondage.

 

There is no ego because he/she is surrendered to Dao...as the Dao does, so does he/she. The only thing the Daoist cares to know is whether something is in harmony with Dao or is in opposition. That which is in opposition with Dao is discarded without a second thought, that which is in harmony is embraced in totality of action, thought and spirit.

[Cameron]

I'll agree also with regarding intergity and virtue over honor.

[Nanashi]

No use in asking the OP any questions, he has been banned for a lack of honor (amusingly).

 

It seems honor in this case is meant as "sessou" (integrity) more than "giri" (sense of duty).

 

Also, some quick quotes from the TTC:

 

"What is a good person but a bad person's teacher?

What is a bad person but raw materiel for his teacher?

If you fail to honor your teacher or fail to enjoy your student,

you will become deluded no matter how smart you are.

It is the secret of prime importance."

 

~

 

"Know the honorable,

but do not shun the disgraced:

embracing the world as it is.

If you embrace the world with compassion,

then your virtue will return you to the uncarved block."

 

~

 

"The death of many should be greeted with great sorrow,

and the victory celebration should honor those who have died."

 

~

 

"Knowing when you have enough avoids dishonor,

and knowing when to stop will keep you from danger..."

 

~

 

"The Tao gives birth to all of creation.

The virtue of Tao in nature nurtures them,

and their family give them their form.

Their environment then shapes them into completion.

That is why every creature honors the Tao and its virtue.

 

No one tells them to honor the Tao and its virtue,

it happens all by itself.

So the Tao gives them birth,

and its virtue cultivates them,

cares for them,

nurtures them,

gives them a place of refuge and peace,

helps them to grow and shelters them.

 

It gives them life without wanting to posses them,

and cares for them expecting nothing in return.

It is their master, but it does not seek to dominate them.

This is called the dark and mysterious virtue."

 

~

 

"That which is well built

will never be torn down.

That which is well latched

can not slip away.

Those who do things well

will be honored from generation to generation."

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Also, some quick quotes from the TTC:

 

Hmm, honor used there is mostly in regards to reverence and respect for someone or something else, rather than one's own honour though. I guess a third usage of the english word. Anyone know the original term?

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Interesting read, not on Taoism, but on Bushido, the Japanese 'Code of Honor' from the Age of the Samurai. It speaks to what you are asking, I think.

 

 

"The Role of Honor in The Code of Bushido

 

By: Sensei Johanna Glazer,

 

The Code of Bushido includes veracity, politeness, courage, benevolence, justice, loyalty, and, above all, honor. In the Code of Bushido, honor stands in an interesting place. It cannot be separated from the other six codes and without it the other six have little power. By adding morality, honor enhances and helps us understand the other codes, and helps us to determines how to handle conflicts in life.

The Code of Bushido was developed for a warrior society driven by class and gender distinctions. This "code of honor" was designed to bring a level of discipline and stability to that society. Today we live in a very different world but the code still has meaning, and can help to make us better people as we work towards "perfection of character." Honor encourages us to return kindness for kindness and to treat all people with respect regardless of social standing. Too often in today's world people such as wait-staff or store clerks are treated with rudeness by those who consider themselves better educated and superior. Unlike in feudal Japan however, where class and gender distinctions were the rule, an honorable person today would never consider treating someone differently because of his or her job, gender, or place in society. Instead, it is the duty of the honorable person to treat all people with respect and to speak out against injustice.

 

Honor is a term that is hard to define and is often misunderstood. Many associate honor with revenge and the idea of "death before dishonor." Many people have gotten into fights in attempts to "defend their honor." The culture of dueling often left men dead after seemingly mild insults, and that culture still exists in today's gangs; or as we saw recently, in today's hockey rinks. What many don't see is that these people aren't fighting over honor. Instead, they are only saving face. They do not see the distinction between honor and face and feel as if their honor has been taken from them. Honor, however, cannot be taken from you by an insult. It can be thrown away by believing the insults and taking revenge but it can never be taken away from you. Instead, honor is within you and is demonstrated in how you respond to others.

In Sankosho (p. 120) is a story of a master swordsman who sat calmly through a barrage of insults from potential robbers. The swordsman avoided a fight by expertly catching four flies with his chopsticks and then getting up and walking away. Traditional misunderstandings of honor would see this man insulted and would say that he should get revenge. In fact, nothing that the robbers could say would take away the swordsman's skill or honor. Fighting them would not make this swordsman more skilled or honorable. It was more honorable for this swordsman to walk away.

 

 

Recently, the tryouts for the U.S. Women's Olympic Tae Kwon Do team were held. Two young women who happened to be close friends competed for the final slot. In the semifinal round, the woman with more seniority and experience was injured leaving the door open for the sure victory of her friend in the finals. The woman with less seniority could have won the Olympic berth quite easily. Instead, she bowed out and gave the position to her friend--the one she knew deserved it more. Honor sometimes involves swallowing one's pride and ambition in order to do what's right. This young woman did just that. This example can clearly be generalized to things we do both in the dojo and things we do in everyday life. The goal is to find the proper balance between humility, glory, and respect.

 

True honor involves benevolence and politeness towards all people, the courage to do what is right, loyalty to all who have helped us, justice but not revenge, and veracity without causing harm. Six of the Codes of Bushido are inherent in the concept of honor and without honor these other six are meaningless. Imagine veracity without honor: one can be too truthful and cause great damage. Courage without honor can lead us to harm ourselves or others unnecessarily. Loyalty without honor can lead us to follow blindly those who are harmful to us or to others. Honor is clearly the hardest of the seven codes to define and yet it is the most essential. To be honorable, one must decide what is the "right thing to do" and then do it. To be honorable one must demonstrate politeness, courage, benevolence, justice, loyalty, and veracity- The Code of Bushido."

 

So I would say no, honor is not bullshit.

Edited November 29, 2011 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

This was just a reactionary thread...? no?

 

I think the question is the answer, actually.

 

True honor would be found better through questioning itself, rather than keeping your word, regardless of the circumstances (or contractual pennalties) and being a genuine person. keeping your word is honorable.