Wu wei and shame and embaressment and taboo

[Ozrielos]

[Protector]

Too tired to type

[ChiDragon]

Hello there,

 

I am a newcomer to Taoism, and so my way of thinking about it relies less on Taoistic concepts and more on western concepts already existing in my mind, which I use to try and interpret the Tao de ching.

 

What I would like to discuss here is the apparent similarity between wu wei as it applies to effort, and a very similar process that occurs in relation to shame/embaressent. I am wondering what this might mean.

 

1 – Wu Wei as applied to effort.

I first became interested in Wu Wei while running. I found that the more I, worrying about my ability to run, tried to run, the less success I had. I was "getting in my own way". If I just forgot about it, had faith in my ability, and simply "went with the flow", I could jog quite easily.

 

This was my first experience of Taoism in action, and within it we can see the importance of faith as a part of Wu Wei:

 

Runner – lack of faith – concentrates on running – distracts himself – feels exhausted and is unable to continue

 

Runner – with faith – just runs – runs succesfully

 

I would be interested to know what other, more experienced Taoists think of this.

 

Greeting.....

It seems to me that you have the right concept about Wu Wei, but its application was not quite as one might apply.

 

First of all, Wu Wei requires no effort. It is because effort has an intend to accomplish something; and Wu Wei has no intend or desire to have something to be done.

 

In your case as a runner, it was not a matter of faith. It seems that "the lack of faith" has an intend not to runner. Thus the intend defeated the purpose of running. Also, there was an intend in "faith" that the runner has a desire to run. Again, as long there was an intend, then it was not Wu Wei.

 

By the true definition of Wu Wei, the runner should not even think about faith to run but just run and let nature take its course. IMO Therefore, the runner would have more confidence than faith.

 

A runner with confidence, definitely, one can run. With faith, the runner only think that one can run.

Edited November 28, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Not that I can really call myself a Taoist, let alone an "experienced Taoist," but from my gleanings: shame and contrivance are generally related in that they are both concerned with failing and the consequences of failing to the ego. Faith also has a lot to do with being willing to take a risk, and having confidence that one will be able to overcome the setbacks encountered.

 

With less attachment to self-concept, there will be lesser setbacks to failing, so faith is more available. Being less concerned about self and more concerned about other allows for fewer setbacks in this regard as well. Seeking harmony with Tao requires less attachment to self in order to see the Tao within rather than the illusion within. So working with Tao allows for more faith or confidence since there is less to lose when self doesn't obscure the path.

 

I don't know if this helps, but thought I would take a shot..

[zanshin]

I run better and train harder when I have goals, although they are always evolving attainable goals.

[deci belle]

Effort is required to obviate stasis. Waiting is required to recognize momentum. Innocence can ride the flow. This comes and goes, whether or not one goes along. Wu wei is not indicative of faith, success, shame or desire. This is the person. Wu wei is not the person.

 

Effort is essential at certain junctures, as is waiting. Innocence defies convention. Events come and go; discipline is the order of availability and detachment.

 

Confidence is a matter of momentum; impasse results in shame. Taboo is learned. Wu wei is one's nature, not the person.

 

Success or no, rest in one's nature, What is best at any given time depends on the situation.

 

Consider study of various versions of the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th hexagrams in the I Ching for insight, Ozrielos.❤

 

(ed note: add two more hexagrams to last line)

Edited December 3, 2011 by deci belle

[whitesilk]

exactly what is your idea of wu wei... (to me inaction), which can be taken further wu wei wu (action without action). also, exactly what is so taboo about death or excrement... both are actually quite natural... does an elephant use the john? Mill, a western Philosopher, stated something along the lines that the goal of, I believe, government, is to ensure the exercise of one's abilities in a society of equals. While you may feel seeking love in different places may hold some underlying attachment. I would say forgetting to the best of your ability would ensure the possibility of 'that funny feeling'

 

Running may help you with that, as I have a personal theorey that an active body denotes a still mind, While a still body denotes an active mind. So remember to forget.