Correspondence of Feats

[effilang]

Bardon might say that to make the body light in order to eg: stand on eggs with pressure applied laterally, as we see in many Qi Gong demonstrations. One would need to have good control of the Air element, or at the time of the feat fill their body with the air element through the use of the 5th element and the imagination to facilitate the impregnation of the physical.

 

How would a Taoist explain it?

 

To make the body heavy and unmovable. To have strong roots as we see in many martial arts demonstrations by cultivated masters. Bardon would say, the earth element must saturate the body through the use of the 5th in order to make it heavy and extra gravitational.

 

How would a Taoist explain it?

To heat up the whole body in order to endure minus temperatures like many Tiben monks of the tumo have been documented to do, or to concentrate the heat in the palms in order to set a light a blaze like John Chang. Bardon would say, the fire element must be inhaled into the body or appendage.

 

How would a Taoist explain it?

To summon rains like the masters in Opening The Dragon Gate, or to cool the body in intense heat, Bardon would say one must fill the body with the water element at will.

 

How would a Taoist explain it?

I am curious to hear not only Taoist energetic interpretations of these feats of cultivation, but any other religion that practices an alchemy of the elements.

[Protector]

Intention

[effilang]

Intention is also required to take your ding dong out to pee in a toilet bowl, but we know that the process starts with oral digestion, proceeds to the stomach and intestines, nutrients are absorbed, the blood is filtered by the kidneys and excess materials are passed to the bladder and urine comes out of the urethra.

 

The physical matter, follows physical paths which have scientific designations well known to even an uneducated person.

 

As such, matter of higher frequency such as elemental energies and Qi also follow specific paths, of which as much we know are called meridians and nadis.

 

My question is on the alchemical processes and paths taken to manifest specific feats.

In Yi Jin Jing you learn to not only generate Chi, but also to move Qi from the Tan Tien along certain meridians in order to accomplish specific tasks. There is a method. There are safety procedures. There is a system that need be respected.

 

So if there is anyone that wishes to reply with something other than smart alec statements, i am very curious to know how your religions interpret these alchemical processes and the maps or instructions of the body's energy pathways and centers that are utilized to direct the manifestations.

 

If you compare Bardon's texts to that of most Taoist books, the difference in explanations is that of a hammer and a scalpel.

 

Intention... yes. Even farting requires it. Still, not what i'm looking for.

Edited November 28, 2011 by effilang

[Protector]

Since I'm an alchemist and I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about,

It is exactly what you're looking for, you may not advance until you realize you are not the only one who has yi

[effilang]

Since I'm an alchemist and I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about,

It is exactly what you're looking for, you may not advance until you realize you are not the only one who has yi

 

I don't think you're reading what i'm saying in the way i intended it to be.

 

Intention is a pre-requisite to any form of manifestation, physical or otherwise. I offer you no contest in this matter. But thereafter, once intention is initiated, there is a process that takes place. Intention guides and helps concentrate, but that which is being guided moves in order and respect of basic principles. Or are you stating that nadis and meridians and Tan Tiens are just there for decoration now?

 

Some practices have elaborate and detailed explanations on the process, others don't. I know of methods on both sides of this spectrum, but i want to hear peoples interpretation of these specific systems of work which rely on directing energy and matter through specific pathways or in combination with elements in the body to perform alchemical feats.

 

I'm not talking about intention here. It's not my query. That is an obvious aspect in all Gongfu.

 

If i intend to move Qi to my LaoGong, i will move it up from the Lower Tan Tien to the Du Mai, up to Du12/14 and into the meridian of the hand and direct it to Lao Gong. There is a palpable sensation of the Qi moving along it's pathways. And when i am done i will return it back to the LDT.

 

It's that sort of process i'm interested in hearing of. Not that intention is required. That is most obvious.

 

Am i honestly making it so difficult to be understood or what?

 

eg: A man intends to get to work on time. His intention drives him to perform the numerous tasks required for him to reach work ie: brush his teeth, get dressed, leave the house, start the car, sit at his desk etc. There is an algorithm that aught to be followed in order for him to do what is necessary for him to get to work on time.

 

If he just stayed in bed, under the covers and intended it so, but didn't get out of bed to get to work, chances are pretty damn certain that he will not make it in time.

 

You could very well have no knowledge whatsoever of meridians or chakras or the energetic body and still only through intention manifest energy in a certain area of your body to perform a feat, but this does not mean that the energy isn't flowing through specific pathways to do so. I'm not interested in having the latter explained to me, i am aware that this is a possibility. What i am interested in is hearing the hypotheses and explanations of those of us here that DO practice a system which details these elaborate interactions and to have those processes elaborated and theorized.

Edited November 28, 2011 by effilang

[Sloppy Zhang]

effilang, great questions, and some that I've been considering for some time.

 

As I've written here in the past, Bardon's work really appeals to me in the sense of what he's talking about and the practical ways in which he trains a magician, and the practical things that a practicing magician is actually supposed to develop as part of mastery. But Taoism has been what has appealed to me in terms of what fits me and my practice needs.

 

Basically: I don't know the answers to these questions. I'd love to know them, though and it would really help integrate what I see as different halves of my practice.

 

I will say that in reading through bits and pieces of "Opening the Dragon's Gate", I was surprised at a lot of crossover similarities between what was being described there and what I have seen described in Bardon's work. But maybe that's just me.

[Protector]

hehe

 

I understand clearly now, you're thinking backwards

Intention is the most neglected part of all Gongfu it seems

You think intention is what powers chi to do whatever it needs to be done, right?

In nature it is the other way around, chi goes first and then gives power to the intention for it to become reality

When you feel like you're directing chi thought the meridians, you are not letting it flow freely but create resistance and that resistance what creates power you feel and the practice becomes fruitful

To unleash the power, you need to remove the resistance

If you carry a heavy bag on your back and remove it after you get used to it, your body becomes lighter, to you at least. Recreating the feeling on your feet is a different story, but I think even you can figure it out eventually.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'll try to help. Pardon me if my answers are obvious..

 

Bardon might say that to make the body light in order to eg: stand on eggs with pressure applied laterally, as we see in many Qi Gong demonstrations. One would need to have good control of the Air element, or at the time of the feat fill their body with the air element through the use of the 5th element and the imagination to facilitate the impregnation of the physical.

 

How would a Taoist explain it?

 

 

From what I have read, it's a matter of cultivating chi and then concentrating it upwards. There's probably much more to it though...

 

 

 

To make the body heavy and unmovable. To have strong roots as we see in many martial arts demonstrations by cultivated masters. Bardon would say, the earth element must saturate the body through the use of the 5th in order to make it heavy and extra gravitational.

 

How would a Taoist explain it?

 

 

Also about concentrating chi, coming from the ground through the body, so that the person is not pushing back, but the attacker ends up pushing against the earth.

 

[/i]

To heat up the whole body in order to endure minus temperatures like many Tiben monks of the tumo have been documented to do, or to concentrate the heat in the palms in order to set a light a blaze like John Chang. Bardon would say, the fire element must be inhaled into the body or appendage.

 

How would a Taoist explain it?

 

 

Again, concentration of chi.

 

 

To summon rains like the masters in Opening The Dragon Gate, or to cool the body in intense heat, Bardon would say one must fill the body with the water element at will.

 

How would a Taoist explain it?

 

 

In both Taoism and Native American Shamanism, this has to do with contacting the cloud spirits or "cloud people" and asking them. How one is able to do this is beyond my explanation.

 

I am curious to hear not only Taoist energetic interpretations of these feats of cultivation, but any other religion that practices an alchemy of the elements.

[effilang]

hehe

 

I understand clearly now, you're thinking backwards

Intention is the most neglected part of all Gongfu it seems

You think intention is what powers chi to do whatever it needs to be done, right?

In nature it is the other way around, chi goes first and then gives power to the intention for it to become reality

When you feel like you're directing chi thought the meridians, you are not letting it flow freely but create resistance and that resistance what creates power you feel and the practice becomes fruitful

To unleash the power, you need to remove the resistance

If you carry a heavy bag on your back and remove it after you get used to it, your body becomes lighter, to you at least. Recreating the feeling on your feet is a different story, but I think even you can figure it out eventually.

 

I'm sorry but even in the Jade Emperors Mind Seal Classic, among other works from the Dao Zang that support this. It states that Xian leads the Yi and the Yi leads the Qi, but also that Qi can lead Yi.

 

Since everything spawns from the duality of Yin and Yang, which rely interdependently on each other and are always to be considered in mutual relativity. There is in fact no "backwards" thinking. There is just your thinking.

 

 

When you feel like you're directing chi thought the meridians, you are not letting it flow freely but create resistance and that resistance what creates power you feel and the practice becomes fruitful

 

What?

 

Intention is the most neglected part of all Gongfu it seems

I thought i told you i'm not contesting this. Why are you in your own little world. I'm not telling you what you think is wrong.

 

You think intention is what powers chi to do whatever it needs to be done, right?

 

What? I claimed this where? Show me?

The Qi IS power. The Qi IS potential.

 

It doesn't NEED to be powered by intention. Qi is constantly flowing and transforming in our bodies without our intention. This is the most basic principle of Taoism. How stupid would i have to be to postulate that, that which precedes the Tai Ji Tu, and thus all of humanity MUST wait for the intention of a human in order to be manifested into action?

 

In order to subdue the Qi to your Xian you must strengthen your Yi.

 

To unleash the power, you need to remove the resistance.

 

Once again you are demonstrating your extreme bias with your statements. Everything is cyclical, look at the Tai Ji.

 

There is no power without resistance and there is no resistance without power. Some of even the oldest Qi Gong practices known to us are created around the interplay of resistance and relaxation in order to build potential and create Qi. It is through the copulation of Yin and Yang that the "10,000" things are created. Not one or the other.

 

Nothing in this world works independently. Where there is Yin there is Yang.

Your views are too one sided IMO.

Edited November 28, 2011 by effilang

[effilang]

effilang, great questions, and some that I've been considering for some time.

 

As I've written here in the past, Bardon's work really appeals to me in the sense of what he's talking about and the practical ways in which he trains a magician, and the practical things that a practicing magician is actually supposed to develop as part of mastery. But Taoism has been what has appealed to me in terms of what fits me and my practice needs.

 

Basically: I don't know the answers to these questions. I'd love to know them, though and it would really help integrate what I see as different halves of my practice.

 

I will say that in reading through bits and pieces of "Opening the Dragon's Gate", I was surprised at a lot of crossover similarities between what was being described there and what I have seen described in Bardon's work. But maybe that's just me.

 

There are indeed a lot of similarities Sloppy. In many of these works, across so many different religions and practices. I always get excited when i come across a confluence.

 

I wonder though how the Chinese theory of 5 elements (wood, water, earth, fire, metal) relates to the Hermetic 5 of earth, water, fire, air, ether.

 

 

[effilang]

I'll try to help. Pardon me if my answers are obvious..

 

Also about concentrating chi, coming from the ground through the body, so that the person is not pushing back, but the attacker ends up pushing against the earth.

 

 

Interesting! I never knew that was a theory behind it. I suppose it makes sense, because i've seen some of these rooting guys, they can really take a toll and still not move.

 

In both Taoism and Native American Shamanism, this has to do with contacting the cloud spirits or "cloud people" and asking them. How one is able to do this is beyond my explanation.

 

Hmm... There must be something more practical to it. I wonder...

Edited November 28, 2011 by effilang

[Protector]

What? I claimed this where? Show me?

 

Intention is a pre-requisite to any form of manifestation, physical or otherwise. I offer you no contest in this matter. But thereafter, once intention is initiated, there is a process that takes place. Intention guides and helps concentrate, but that which is being guided moves in order and respect of basic principles.

 

I think you took my first post as a hostile attack while I was sizing up your knowledge so I wont have to write too much. You're only hurting yourself and I don't want to continue this since it's pointless for you as of now.

 

I'll give you some time to cool your head.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Hmm... There must be something more practical to it. I wonder...

 

I'm not so sure.. All shamans honor the spirits that they work with, even those of plants and herbs. Imo, science might even find some peripheral, physical manifestation of what going on, but that's only because they can't use science to interact with spiritual beings. I don't know much about hermeticism, but I'd be surprised if they don't recognize entities.

[effilang]

I think you took my first post as a hostile attack while I was sizing up your knowledge so I wont have to write too much. You're only hurting yourself and I don't want to continue this since it's pointless for you as of now.

 

I'll give you some time to cool your head.

 

Yes of course. Why wouldn't i take "Intention", the sole word in your first post as a hostile attack. lol

 

Buddy. You're not intimidating enough to be considered hostile.

Get over your ego and stay on topic please.

[effilang]

I'm not so sure.. All shamans honor the spirits that they work with, even those of plants and herbs. Imo, science might even find some peripheral, physical manifestation of what going on, but that's only because they can't use science to interact with spiritual beings. I don't know much about hermeticism, but I'd be surprised if they don't recognize entities.

 

I am just getting into Hermeticism, and from what i gather so far, they do believe in entities.

 

But from their perspective, conjuring rain or manifestations of the element of water (as far as i've read). Are performed directly by the practitioner. This would make sense from a karmic point of view, as that would make them fully responsible for the consequences of those actions. That's a model which makes more sense to me.

 

On the other hand if an entity, someone other than you were needed to actually pour down the rain, and the aftermath was 10000s of people dying... Would an entity really take the chances?

 

Most of Taoism is cloaked in hidden meanings and symbolism, to conceal the true meaning of important texts from the unrighteous seekers. It could perhaps be possible that many other religions have adopted similar conceptions in order to retain the truth of the matter. That perhaps, everyone has the potential to do these things? Even though there are so many religions and beliefs, we all seems to share the same physical and energetic constitution, so really how different could things be from one land to another. Hm...

 

Just speculating of course : )

Edited November 28, 2011 by effilang

[Sloppy Zhang]

I am just getting into Hermeticism, and from what i gather so far, they do believe in entities.

 

But from their perspective, conjuring rain or manifestations of the element of water (as far as i've read). Are performed directly by the practitioner. This would make sense from a karmic point of view, as that would make them fully responsible for the consequences of those actions. That's a model which makes more sense to me.

 

On the other hand if an entity, someone other than you were needed to actually pour down the rain, and the aftermath was 10000s of people dying... Would an entity really take the chances?

 

A lot of my knowledge is coming from some articles found here. The ones written by Prophecy and Veos especially relate specifically to Hermetics from an IIH paradigm.

 

Basically, there are a lot of different factors.

 

There are spirit beings that have certain influence over certain areas. For instance, there are entities which control the rain. A magician with the proper ability to see and speak to and hear spirits might be able to get a spirit to cause it to rain. Or the magician could consult the spirit and get the spirit to teach the magician how to make it rain. Since the spirits themselves have lots of knowledge, sometimes they know better ways to do it than just the general ways that a magician might find out.

 

Sometimes these lessons come in the forms of gifts, and sometimes in the form of deals.

 

The style of magic that Bardon seems to teach frowns on the deal making. Basically, a magician should develop themselves to the point where they are fully capable of doing it themselves. That would mean working with the water element to the point where they can handle it as well. Since each person can do it themselves, it makes little sense to go around making deals with spirits.

 

The knowledge isn't always enough. Sometimes you need real capability, and that can only come from genuine practice.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ish]

From my reading Lama Yeshe's book on the Six Yogas of Naropa, through the practice of inner fire one gets to a point that external fire can be controlled.

So in my view this also seems to be in accordance with Franz Bardon's explanation of elemental manipulation.

 

Although the focus of Tummo is certainly fire I believe when practiced authentically, in effect, it doesn't neglect any of the elements. But like I said - the focus is on fire.

 

So therefore perhaps specific focus on the element eventually brings about the ability of manipulation.

[Ish]

From my reading Lama Yeshe's book on the Six Yogas of Naropa, through the practice of inner fire one gets to a point that external fire can be controlled.

So in my view this also seems to be in accordance with Franz Bardon's explanation of elemental manipulation.

 

Although the focus of Tummo is certainly fire I believe when practiced authentically, in effect, it doesn't neglect any of the elements. But like I said - the focus is on fire.

 

So therefore perhaps specific focus on the element eventually brings about the ability of manipulation.

 

Oh I just remembered, a certain Yogi of the Six Yoga's said that levitation wasn't the focus of his meditation, but if he directed himself towards it, he had no doubt that he could levitate.

From the Tibetan practice, I believe the energy of the central channel (Tummo practice) combined with powerful mind states brings about their abilities.

[Eyes of Eagle]

In The Practice of Simhamukha (or Sinhamukha) you enter in the mandala's center (in your imagination). After assumtpion of the form of the dakini Simhamukha, there is a vibration of a mantra (just a sequence of tibetan syllables). When something grows bad (like revenge or rage or fear) the solution is the reversed Simhamukha mantra.

 

The person practising this will mantain his attention in the center, with various Simamukhas aroud he/she (visualized in imagination). Every color has a meaning and a element and Buddha family. With complete identification with Simhamukha and with some prayes in sanskrit, the "magician" can change the environment and the world through intention. Yes, identification with magical images is the key. But this is not only true for Dzogchen magick but for Golden Dawn magick.

 

Assumption of God forms has very practical uses not described in The Golden Dawn by Israel Regardie, just a little meditation can clear the matter.

[templetao]

through the practice of inner fire one gets to a point that external fire can be controlled.

 

So therefore perhaps specific focus on the element eventually brings about the ability of manipulation.

 

That is correct. but this is possible with all the elements like air, water, and earth can be projected as well.

 

This use to be taught as a whole in taoist alchemy training.