Chuang Tzu Chapter 5, Section D

[Marblehead]

Section D

 

Duke Ai of Lu asked Zhongni, saying, 'There was an ugly man in Wei, called Ai-tai Tuo. His father-in-law, who lived with him, thought so much of him that he could not be away from him. His wife, when she saw him (ugly as he was), represented to her parents, saying, "I had more than ten times rather be his concubine than the wife of any other man." He was never heard to take the lead in discussion, but always seemed to be of the same opinion with others. He had not the position of a ruler, so as to be able to save men from death. He had no revenues, so as to be able to satisfy men's craving for food. He was ugly enough, moreover, to scare the whole world. He agreed with men instead of trying to lead them to adopt his views; his knowledge did not go beyond his immediate neighbourhood. And yet his father-in-law and his wife were of one mind about him in his presence (as I have said) - he must have been different from other men. I called him, and saw him. Certainly he was ugly enough to scare the whole world. He had not lived with me, however, for many months, when I was drawn to the man; and before he had been with me a full year, I had confidence in him. The state being without a chief minister, I (was minded) to commit the government to him. He responded to my proposal sorrowfully, and looked undecided as if he would fain have declined it. I was ashamed of myself (as inferior to him), but finally gave the government into his hands. In a little time, however, he left me and went away. I was sorry and felt that I had sustained a loss, and as if there were no other to share the pleasures of the kingdom with me. What sort of man was he?'

 

Zhongni said, 'Once when I was sent on a mission to Qi, I saw some pigs sucking at their dead mother. After a little they looked with rapid glances, when they all left her, and ran away. They felt that she did not see them, and that she was no longer like themselves. What they had loved in their mother was not her bodily figure, but what had given animation to her figure. When a man dies in battle, they do not at his interment employ the usual appendages of plumes: as to supplying shoes to one who has lost his feet, there is no reason why he should care for them - in neither case is there the proper reason for their use. The members of the royal harem do not pare their nails nor pierce their ears; when a man is newly married, he remains (for a time) absent from his official duties, and unoccupied with them. That their bodies might be perfect was sufficient to make them thus dealt with; how much greater results should be expected from men whose mental gifts are perfect! This Ai-tai Tuo was believed by men, though he did not speak a word; and was loved by them, though he did no special service for them. He made men appoint him to the government of their states, afraid only that he would not accept the appointment. He must have been a man whose powers were perfect, though his realisation of them was not manifested in his person.

 

Duke Ai said, 'What is meant by saying that his powers were complete?' Zhongni replied, 'Death and life, preservation and ruin, failure and success, poverty and wealth, superiority and inferiority, blame and praise, hunger and thirst, cold and heat; these are the changes of circumstances, the operation of our appointed lot. Day and night they succeed to one another before us, but there is no wisdom able to discover to what they owe their origination. They are not sufficient therefore to disturb the harmony (of the nature), and are not allowed to enter into the treasury of intelligence. To cause this harmony and satisfaction ever to be diffused, while the feeling of pleasure is not lost from the mind; to allow no break to arise in this state day or night, so that it is always spring-time in his relations with external things; in all his experiences to realise in his mind what is appropriate to each season (of the year): these are the characteristics of him whose powers are perfect.'

 

'And what do you mean by the realisation of these powers not being manifested in the person?' (pursued further the duke). The reply was, 'There is nothing so level as the surface of a pool of still water. It may serve as an example of what I mean. All within its circuit is preserved (in peace), and there comes to it no agitation from without. The virtuous efficacy is the perfect cultivation of the harmony (of the nature). Though the realisation of this be not manifested in the person, things cannot separate themselves (from its influence).'

 

Some days afterwards duke Ai told this conversation to Min-zi, saying, 'Formerly it seemed to me the work of the sovereign to stand in court with his face to the south, to rule the kingdom, and to pay good heed to the accounts of the people concerned, lest any should come to a (miserable) death - this I considered to be the sum (of his duty). Now that I have heard that description of the Perfect man, I fear that my idea is not the real one, and that, by employing myself too lightly, I may cause the ruin of my state. I and Kong Qiu are not on the footing of ruler and subject, but on that of a virtuous friendship.'

Edited November 29, 2011 by Marblehead

[konchog uma]

oh thats long. since the Mair takes a good bit of editing the text for extra spaces and errors and such, i'll get to it later. maybe tomorrow!

 

Marblehead! Don't let me forget!!

[Marblehead]

Marblehead! Don't let me forget!!

 

You askin' this old man to remember something? Hehehe. I'll try.

[konchog uma]

You askin' this old man to remember something? Hehehe. I'll try.

 

oh crap i forgot

[Marblehead]

oh crap i forgot

 

I haven't. Hehehe.

[konchog uma]

[Marblehead]

"Integrity is the cultivation of complete harmony."

 

I like that.

 

From my experiences, maintaining harmony, both inner and with our externals, is not all that easy a process though.

 

(But, the act of cultivating reminds us that we are still alive.)

[dust]

So.. I'm interested in the phrase 德不形者.

 

 

Zhuangzi:

是必才全而德不形者也  [...]

德者，成和之修也。德不形者，物不能離也

 

Legge:

He must have been a man whose powers were perfect, though his realisation of them was not manifested in his person.
  [...]

The virtuous efficacy is the perfect cultivation of the harmony (of the nature). Though the realisation of this be not manifested in the person, things cannot separate themselves (from its influence).

 

Watson:

It must be that his powers are whole, though his virtue takes no form.  [...]

Virtue is the establishment of perfect harmony. Though virtue takes no form, things cannot break away from it.

 

Mair:

He must have been a person whose abilities were whole but whose integrity was not evident in his physical form.
  [...]

We can tell that a person has integrity, even though it may not be evident in her physical form, because she is indispensable to all things.

 

 

 

I might see it differently to these guys, though.

 

德者成和之修也   德不形者物不能離也

 

德者 is frequently translated as "one who has de". So let's say that a  德者  is a person/thing with de, and a  德不形者  is a person/thing with no outward/evident de, or inward de.

 

Ai Taituo, of whom they're speaking, is a man with non-evident de: he is ugly and people would, on first sight, not exclaim how full of de he is -- but in fact he is replete with it, and after spending time with him, all love him and cannot be without him.

 

So, why not translate as:

 

One with integrity has cultivated complete harmony; One with inward integrity is indispensable to / loved by all.

 

...essentially saying that one with integrity is great, but one with non-evident integrity is even better...?

[Marblehead]

But Dusty, we are comparing outer appearance with inner essence.  Your version speaks only to inner essence.

 

And we are speaking of the difference between "yo" and "wu".

[dust]

Yes exactly, comparing the outward to the inward. But with the phrase I'm talking about, none of the translations manage it very well.

 

I knew I was having trouble making myself clear. Let me try again, just using Watson and my own amendments:

 

 

Watson original:

 

"What do you mean when you say his virtue takes no form?"

 

"Among level things, water at rest is the most perfect, and therefore it can serve as a standard. It guards what is inside and shows no movement outside. Virtue is the establishment of perfect harmony. Though virtue takes no form, things cannot break away from it."

 

 

"Though virtue takes no form, things cannot break away from it" ? What does this mean, exactly? I don't like.

 

 

Watson amended:

 

"What do you mean when you say his de takes no form?"

 

"Among level things, water at rest is the most perfect, and therefore it can serve as a standard. It guards what is inside and shows no movement outside. De is the establishment of perfect harmony. One with de has achieved complete harmony; one with inward de is indispensable to all."

 

 

In other words: water has de, but water at rest has a certain kind of de -- a de that, like in Ai Taituo, isn't at once obvious, but is actually the most appealing and indispensable.

Edited May 23, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

You did good Dusty.  I hope I can express my thoughts here properly.

 

Yes, what you bolded above is of great value:

 

One with de has achieved complete harmony; one with inward de is indispensable to all.

 

​Let's break this into two parts.

 

1.  One with de has achieved complete harmony

 

This is De of Dao.  Objective, not subjective.  That is, he is in complete harmony with Dao.  Being a physically ugly person has no part in this thought.

 

2.  One with inward de is indispensable to all.

 

This is de of man.  Subjective, not objective.  That is, he is of value to all who go to see him.  This is because he is like a mirror, reflecting everything without distortion or blemish.  The beauty of his inner essence harmonizes the ugliness of his physical body.

[dust]

Yes, like that. Two similar but distinct concepts, rather than one concept with a "but".

 

It probably seems like a minor point to pick out, but I just couldn't understand why all 3 translators use the contrasting conjunction "though", interpreting as if  德不形者物不能離也  is a comment on  德者成和之修也, when they are actually being spoken of separately.

 

 

The virtuous efficacy is the perfect cultivation of the harmony (of the nature). Though the realisation of this be not manifested in the person, things cannot separate themselves (from its influence).

Virtue is the establishment of perfect harmony. Though virtue takes no form, things cannot break away from it.

We can tell that a person has integrity, even though it may not be evident in her physical form, because she is indispensable to all things.

 

 

There is no "though" or "but" or "however" in the Chinese. I see it as:

 

德者            成和之修也       德不形者           物不能離也

concept one          description            concept two                description

 

 

In the same format as something like:

 

天地   一指也        萬物   一馬也

Heaven and earth    are one attribute       the ten thousand things    are one horse

 

知者     不言                言者     不知

knower    doesn't speak         speaker   doesn't know

 

無為而尊者  天道也          有為而累者  人道也

To rest in inaction and command respect is the Way of Heaven  To engage in action and become entangled in it is the way of man

 

 

edit: I am aware that going against 3 of the most acclaimed translations is a bit controversial...which is why, though you've somewhat supported my idea MH, I'm continuing to post evidence for it and explain it a bit better..

Edited May 23, 2016 by dustybeijing

[blue eyed snake]

I like your analyzing of text and words and see the great value of someone who can read this stuff in Chinese.

I did not read the whole text, just the few posts above.

 

My brain is befuddled and I fear that will stay that way,

but i have some associations here.

 

Even though I see what dusty means by rejecting the word ' though' in these sentences. There might still be a relation between the two. Maybe the inner De can come into being only after the outer De has established itself.

 

also I'm surprised about the mentioning of outer physicality as ' being ugly' maybe there is some other meaning there, maybe like that we can relatively easy recognize when someone is in the state of outer De, but that the having reached inner De is less visible, comes only when you come closer to that person, and only then feeling/becoming aware of his inner De.

 

Also the comparison inner De with water at rest reminds me of mirror, but maybe that was already mentioned.

One with inner De is a clear mirror for those around him. Thereby allowing for communication that is not befuddled by his emotions. This gives the possibility for those around him to see themselves more clearly and grow towards ( outer) De.

[dust]

Even though I see what dusty means by rejecting the word ' though' in these sentences. There might still be a relation between the two. Maybe the inner De can come into being only after the outer De has established itself.

 

Yes! Rather than deny a relationship, I'm suggesting that they are 2 related but distinct 'versions' of de. As MH said, perhaps the De of Dao and the De of Human.

 

Integrity:

http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=integrity

blamelessness, purity, wholeness, completeness, perfect condition

 

If we talk of de as 'integrity', we can say that all things have their own integrity -- water has its own integrity, and trees, and worms, and humans -- but that this integrity can increase and decrease; we can be more or less 'integrated', more or less 'whole', with more or less power.

 

A blameless, pure, whole, perfect condition of water is when it is at rest, when it seems still -- though it remains a quick and active substance, and only appears to be motionless. There is simply no outward sign of its inward nature. And a blameless, pure, perfect condition of a human is when there is no outward sign of her inward nature -- when she is deceptively integrated.

 

 

also I'm surprised about the mentioning of outer physicality as ' being ugly' maybe there is some other meaning there, maybe like that we can relatively easy recognize when someone is in the state of outer De, but that the having reached inner De is less visible, comes only when you come closer to that person, and only then feeling/becoming aware of his inner De.

 

Duke Ai mentions the man as being deformed or ugly -- it's not stated as Zhuangzi's opinion. I think the characters are just talking as normal men talk, being surprised that a man so ugly could be so wonderful.

 

 

Also the comparison inner De with water at rest reminds me of mirror, but maybe that was already mentioned.

One with inner De is a clear mirror for those around him. Thereby allowing for communication that is not befuddled by his emotions. This gives the possibility for those around him to see themselves more clearly and grow towards ( outer) De.

 

Yes, I like this mirror idea that you and MH have mentioned.

Edited May 23, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

edit: I am aware that going against 3 of the most acclaimed translations is a bit controversial...which is why, though you've somewhat supported my idea MH, I'm continuing to post evidence for it and explain it a bit better..

I don't mind you doing that.  As I have stated before, it are the concepts that are important, not the words.  And as I don't read Chinese I must rely on those who do and after reading what they have presented I mold it like putty into my belief system.

 

Therefore I will continue to speak only my opinions and understandings of the concepts.

[Taoist Texts]

There is no "though" or "but" or "however" in the Chinese. I see it as:

 

德者            成和之修也       德不形者           物不能離也

concept one          description            concept two                description

 

Actually this 物不能離  (things do not break away) is a ZZ-unique variant of a set phrase that exists in several variants

物不能惑

物不能拘

物不能乱

meaning that if someone has de, or peaceful mind, or internal refinement, then the things can not bother, hinder, or confuse him

 

this particular variant    物不能離 means that the things can not lead him (or his De) astray

Edited May 23, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[dust]

 

Actually this 物不能離  (things do not break away) is a ZZ-unique variant of a set phrase that exists in several variants

物不能惑

物不能拘

物不能乱

meaning that if someone has de, or peaceful mind, or internal refinement, then the things can not bother, hinder, or confuse him

 

this particular variant    物不能離 means that the things can not lead him (or his De) astray

 

 

I hadn't looked at  物不能  as a structure -- good point.

 

But I only find it once more in ZZ -- 至人之於德也，不修而物不能離焉 -- and then a few other texts including Wenzi and Hanfeizi.

 

The other mention in ZZ,

 

至人之於德也

不修而物不能離焉

The Perfect Human stands in the same relationship in virtue

Without cultivating it, he possesses it to such an extent that things cannot draw away from him

 

is the same as the mention we're looking at in ch.5, 物不能离, and Watson translates it in roughly the same way as he has in ch.5. I'm not quite sure why it should mean "things can not lead him (or his De) astray"...? Especially when in the story about Ai Taituo they have already expressed how so many people loved him and could not bear to be away from him -- this fits in very well with the translation of  物不能离 as "indispensable to all" or more literally "all things unable to leave (him)"

 

 

Anyway, you haven't commented on the focus of my ramblings... am I to assume that you don't entirely disagree with my idea about  德不形者 ?

[Taoist Texts]

Anyway, you haven't commented on the focus of my ramblings... am I to assume that you don't entirely disagree with my idea about  德不形者 ?

I entirely agree

 

So.. I'm interested in the phrase 德不形者.

 

 

 

So, why not translate as:

 

One with integrity has cultivated complete harmony; One with inward integrity is indispensable to / loved by all.

 

...essentially saying that one with integrity is great, but one with non-evident integrity is even better...?

Yes, to me it is correct, but there is a twist to it...i will post on it in a few

[Taoist Texts]

仲尼曰：“…是必才全而德不形者也。”

Confucius said:..his soul is so whole that his De does not come to the surface of his body.

哀公曰：“何谓才全？”

Duke asked: what do you mean his soul is so whole?

仲尼曰：“死生存亡，穷达贫富，贤与不肖，毁誉、饥渴、寒暑，是事之变，命之行也；日夜相代乎前，而知不能规乎其始者也。故不足以滑和，不可入于灵府。使之和豫通而不失于兑，使日夜无郤而与物为春，是接而生时于心者也。是之谓才全。”

Confucius said: …the circumstances change, that’s fate; you can not know where it started. But for a person whose talent is whole, the external things are not sufficient to disturb the harmony (of his nature), and are not allowed to enter into his soul. So he is ever joyful and does not lose his senses, there are no cracks in him and the things are forever as if in spring season, he comes in contact with things and reacts timely with his heart. Therefore his soul stays whole.

“何谓德不形？”

Duke asked: what do you mean his De does not come up to the surface of his body?

曰：“平者，水停之盛也。其可以为法也，内保之而外不荡也。德者，成和之修也。德不形者，物不能离也。”

Confucius said: a calm surface of the deep water is a metaphor for this, its potential is within and there are no waves outside. Similarly, when somebody’s De is perfect, it does not come up to the surface of his body, and the external things can not disturb it.

 

Basically the gist of this conversation is that normally a De of a person shows in his appearance making him beautiful externally, but also running a danger to be captured and led astray by the external things, because it is out in the open.

Now, in exceptional cases, a De is so integral, that it stays firmly within, not making his owner beautiful, but also being safely hid under his ugly appearance, keeping his soul whole , not being led astray by the external things.

 

[blue eyed snake]

Yes! Rather than deny a relationship, I'm suggesting that they are 2 related but distinct 'versions' of de. As MH said, perhaps the De of Dao and the De of Human.

 

yes, to me it seems like phases of development, first the outer de, after that the inner de

 

Integrity:

http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=integrity

blamelessness, purity, wholeness, completeness, perfect condition

 

If we talk of de as 'integrity', we can say that all things have their own integrity -- water has its own integrity, and trees, and worms, and humans -- but that this integrity can increase and decrease; we can be more or less 'integrated', more or less 'whole', with more or less power.

 

thanks, i took the word in its dutch meaning, which is somewhat narrower

 

A blameless, pure, whole, perfect condition of water is when it is at rest, when it seems still -- though it remains a quick and active substance, and only appears to be motionless. There is simply no outward sign of its inward nature. And a blameless, pure, perfect condition of a human is when there is no outward sign of her inward nature -- when she is deceptively integrated.

 

this is beautiful!

 

Duke Ai mentions the man as being deformed or ugly -- it's not stated as Zhuangzi's opinion. I think the characters are just talking as normal men talk, being surprised that a man so ugly could be so wonderful.

 

Yes, by now I've read chapter 5, but another edition ( brook Ziporyn).

 

I'm a bit shy of contributing to this thread, you all know so much, and i am so new to it, nothing more than associations and questions to contribute. If it becomes tiresome to you all i will fade back and just read along.

 

I wonder, in what way were humpbacked people looked at in old china? I mean, here of old, people with a physical deformity were regarded as tainted, being unworthy, it being a punishment by god ( punishment for the parents I think) If ideas like that were eh.. normative in those times, that would throw a still different light on the fact that he was deformed and still had inner De.

 

also I see that earlier in the story several onefooted guys come up, so also deformed, but onefooted because of punishment for bad deeds. This contrasts with the guy with the hump. 

Both ' categories' seem to be able to attain De.

 

Yes, I like this mirror idea that you and MH have mentioned.

 

and TT wrote this which I like very much!

 

Duke asked: what do you mean his De does not come up to the surface of his body?

曰：“平者，水停之盛也。其可以为法也，内保之而外不荡也。德者，成和之修也。德不形者，物不能离也。”

Confucius said: a calm surface of the deep water is a metaphor for this, its potential is within and there are no waves outside. Similarly, when somebody’s De is perfect, it does not come up to the surface of his body, and the external things can not disturb it.

 

Basically the gist of this conversation is that normally a De of a person shows in his appearance making him beautiful externally, but also running a danger to be captured and led astray by the external things, because it is out in the open.

Now, in exceptional cases, a De is so integral, that it stays firmly within, not making his owner beautiful, but also being safely hid under his ugly appearance, keeping his soul whole , not being led astray by the external things.

 

I want to add, when I read about the description of this humpbacked guy, my teacher comes to the fore in my mind. He's not humpbacked, but not beautiful/handsome either, just a small, bald-headed chinee man, a bit too fat because he likes good food and getting older doesn't do as much physical training as when he was younger. but indeed, everybody wants to be with him. reading this text and these posts I suspect that he has mostly attained inner De and is still refining it. On rare occasions i observe that his waters are stirred by what is happening around him, but it's rare, it comes as a surprise...

 

and being so refined, he has that mirroring quality

[Marblehead]

I'm a bit shy of contributing to this thread, you all know so much, and i am so new to it, nothing more than associations and questions to contribute. If it becomes tiresome to you all i will fade back and just read along.

Please continue being who you are.  Your interest and questions/comments are of great value as they allow us others to reconsider our understandings and view possible alternative perspectives.

 

No one can "see" directly our inner essence - our De of Dao.  It is only through outer expression that others can indirectly see it.  And this inner essence is more powerful than any external expression (and physical deformities).

 

This is why I like to differentiate between De of Dao and de of man.  When speaking of the concept of "virtue" I always capitalize the "V" when speaking of the Virtue of Tao but use lower case "v" when speaking of the virtue of man.  (For most other animals there would be no difference.)

[dust]

Oh yes, I was going to say..

 

I'm a bit shy of contributing to this thread, you all know so much, and i am so new to it, nothing more than associations and questions to contribute. If it becomes tiresome to you all i will fade back and just read along.

 

If it seems at any point that I know what I'm talking about, you can be sure that I'm not so sure.

 

My knowledge of modern Chinese only helps a little for the ancient stuff, so I'm really just feeling my way along. I use a variety of online dictionaries, and it can take quite a while to get through. And my knowledge of the concepts / philosophy / history etc is very, very small.

 

I sometimes wonder why these textual studies forums (DDJ, ZZ, I Ching, etc) get so little discussion compared to the others, and I suppose that one reason is that many members don't feel qualified to talk on texts from ancient foreign-language cultures. But as long as we're contributing in the spirit of learning, we're doing well. It is the dogmatic 'masters' who know everything and never need to question their wisdom who we should watch out for.

 

 

I want to add, when I read about the description of this humpbacked guy, my teacher comes to the fore in my mind. He's not humpbacked, but not beautiful/handsome either, just a small, bald-headed chinee man, a bit too fat because he likes good food and getting older doesn't do as much physical training as when he was younger. but indeed, everybody wants to be with him. reading this text and these posts I suspect that he has mostly attained inner De and is still refining it. On rare occasions i observe that his waters are stirred by what is happening around him, but it's rare, it comes as a surprise...

 

and being so refined, he has that mirroring quality

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by dustybeijing