Patanjali's Yoga Sutras

[thaddeus]

The threads on the powers recently had me taking a harder look at Patanjali's yoga sutras. Interestingly enough, all that stuff is laid out in there..specifically how to achieve it. The scary thing is that it is completely logical..anyone have thoughts on it and want to discuss?

T

[turbo]

Which version are you reading? I've read this version its great. I've tried reading this one, but its difficult to make it throught all the jargon. I'll need some time and dedication to get through it, and I've go too much on my plate for that now...oh well.

[thaddeus]

Which version are you reading? I've read this version its great. I've tried reading this one, but its difficult to make it throught all the jargon. I'll need some time and dedication to get through it, and I've go too much on my plate for that now...oh well.

I have IK Taimni's version:

http://www.amazon.com/Science-Yoga-Yoga-Su...TF8&s=books

 

Bottom line, based on these sutras, is that the abilities bandied about in the other threads are not high achievements. Which is interesting..cause ultimately we need to come to the realization that this is all made up stuff. Because this is all made up stuff, we can do all those cool things with a focused concentration, but the ultimate is too see through this. What made me uncomfortable with the other threads, that I couldn't articulate, is to focus on that stuff as a sign of the 'real goods' is a huge misdirection. If you have a light to share, share it, you don't need to run to seclusion and have secret teachings. There are no secrets in the yoga sutras, it's there for the brave to do. Another thing I got from the sutras is you can do all this 'stuff' to work on seeing through the illusions or you can put your mind steadfastly on god. It just seems like an honest, no nonsense path.

Anyway..interested to hear what anyone thinks on this..

T

[turbo]

What made me uncomfortable with the other threads, that I couldn't articulate, is to focus on that stuff as a sign of the 'real goods' is a huge misdirection.

 

There are no secrets in the yoga sutras, it's there for the brave to do.

 

Well, the "taoist" methods you refer to do require 3 hours of meditation per day and 3 sessions of qigong per week at an hour each. That is some serious dedication to the path. While the "powers" are not or at least should not be the goal, (and according to the sutras they can not if you want to go all the way) they are an indication of achievement. And what better way to prove that a method works than to display the fruits thereof. After reading the sutras it seems like its best to stay away from them at all, lest you be caught up in them. However, one has to wonder whether when you acheive such a high level of cultivation if they seem like powers at all, or just your ordianry reality.

 

Dunno about being brave to practice yoga. You need some sense and a lot more devotion than bravery.

 

Also, what about buddhism vs yoga. It is said that Siddartha surveyed all the yogas present at the time (2000bc) and found them all lacking. The sutras were written before his time. Thus he must have come in contact with and practiced them...does that mean that they are not the way to go?

[sunshine]

I was just gleaming over these sutras on the internet... am I right that there is not really much practice info in there?

 

Regarding those powers:

 

As always there are two sides of the coin.

 

Some schools say: BAD

others say: GOOD

some say: we give you save practices that shut off these capabilities in order for you not to get off-track and you energy is used properly in a natural way

some say: these abilities are natural, why not use them?

 

 

I assume it gets down to this:

These powers show certain progress and might strongly strengthen your faith in what you do. I mean: If with 4 years of training I really could move something around by mind intent only... wow. I WOULD know that at least this method works... if this capability were shut off I would move on and maybe "just" hearing from a teacher: you have progressed... hmmmmm...

 

If the powers appear in a specific manner for all undergoing the same training one sure could say that they are something like a fail-safe marker for the same stages of development, I assume (could be not).

 

Now: here is the other side of the coin.

 

If you have no strong character you can be quickly led astray...

 

but we have that with both methods:

those that "allow" certain powers &

those that don't.

 

In the case of allowing powers the danger is that you get caught up in them and do not progress further on the "real way"...

 

In the case that these powers are not allowed to get developed you might sooner or later lose your faith in the method/way practiced... as you ask yourself how to measure your own progress... and there you are: looking for something different...

 

just my little two cents

 

Harry

Edited October 12, 2006 by sunshine

[thaddeus]

Also, what about buddhism vs yoga. It is said that Siddartha surveyed all the yogas present at the time (2000bc) and found them all lacking. The sutras were written before his time. Thus he must have come in contact with and practiced them...does that mean that they are not the way to go?

buddhism vs. yoga..not sure how to compare these two, the yoga sutras devote maybe two or three lines to asana practice. Most of it seems to be related to not being identified with the thoughts, and awareness of the true self and defining terms. I think this is the same as the buddhist goal. I can't imagine the buddha saying that was lacking, they seem to say the same thing. I could be wrong but I think the buddha was referring to the extreme practices in that day such as self mutilation that didn't lead one to break through the illusions. Ultimately any practice can be considered something as a hindrance if it causes one to continue to identify with thoughts. We should check whether or not siddhartha was aware of patanjali or if it came after him.

T

[turbo]

We should check whether or not siddhartha was aware of patanjali or if it came after him.

 

Thats a great question.

 

Sunshine:

 

There is sufficient practice info in the sutras, at least the transations I've read. However, it is not as explicit or encouraging as the lessons over at AYP. Pantjali goes through and explains the eight limbs of yoga, and to do so he has to cover meditation techniques....as far as asanas go he does not describe actual postures, but you can find those just about anywhere.

 

Regarding powers. I think they will develop no matter what, in fact the development of several of them are milestones and roadmarks along the path. Not all of them are bad either. If you can radiate love to your surroundings then this is probably a good thing. However, if you get caught up in the game of "I have to acquire the power to levitate" then this is a perversion of yoga and you will suffer as a resuilt.

 

As far as powers strengthening your faith in your school, I think this is bad. Peace of mind, calmness, relaxed awareness, and eventually a kundalini awakening are all signs your are progressing on a valid spiritual path. For more examples and explanation see Bodri's book on Measuring Meditation. Using powers as a sign to yourself of your deeping spiritual attainment is probably not too good. However using it to show others the path is common, especially in Zen schools.

[sunshine]

Thankx for the clarification, Turbo...

 

>>Regarding powers. I think they will develop no matter what, in fact the development of several of them are milestones and roadmarks along the path.<<

 

See. The point I was trying to make is: they will appear on which path?

 

Many schools might lead to the same "path" in the end, but they have very very different ways to get there...

 

and this way we get to

 

>As far as powers strengthening your faith in your school, I think this is bad.<

 

It is not regarding faih in the school but the method... and I was specifically referring to schools that do seem to have ways to shut these abilities off so that one does not get trapped in them...

 

I am not sure about it, but I would prefer a way were I was still the owner of my own will & decisions (even the decision to get caught up in them) than to be dependend on a master telling me where I am...

 

I might change my mind though

 

Harry

[thaddeus]

Thankx for the clarification, Turbo...

 

>>Regarding powers. I think they will develop no matter what, in fact the development of several of them are milestones and roadmarks along the path.<<

 

See. The point I was trying to make is: they will appear on which path?

 

Many schools might lead to the same "path" in the end, but they have very very different ways to get there...

 

and this way we get to

 

>As far as powers strengthening your faith in your school, I think this is bad.<

 

It is not regarding faih in the school but the method... and I was specifically referring to schools that do seem to have ways to shut these abilities off so that one does not get trapped in them...

 

I am not sure about it, but I would prefer a way were I was still the owner of my own will & decisions (even the decision to get caught up in them) than to be dependend on a master telling me where I am...

 

I might change my mind though

 

Harry

Sunshine, you should read the chapter that talks about these powers. Some interesting tidbits..it's seems to be about developing one pointed concentration. And then using this one pointed concentration to get the powers..for example, to know a man's thoughts, you direct your one pointed concentration to his heart. To know everything about your body (which is probably interesting to you since you're in med school) conentrate on the navel center..also some stuff about how if you stop 'stealing' you will have more than you ever need. and that adherents on the path become extremely sexually attractive. The Taimni commentary mentions some of the temptations..such as meeting 'spirit guides' and the 'immortals'..they are adherents who gave in to the temptations..I can't really do it justice here, but lots of cool information. But the statements are very terse and need study. That's why the commentaries are necessary, but could be misleading based on who is doing it of course. On asana practice he says "asana should be steady and comfortable" --well, you can write a book on how to do that..so most of the text is like that. It was meant to be a guide and the aphorisms were memorized instead of written down. Om is the sound of God..

T

[sunshine]

Thankx T, one more book on my list of those to be read...

 

IF ANYBODY KNOWS OF A SUPERMETHOD TO CHARGE MY BRAIN AND MAKE ME SUPERINTELLIGENT, ALLOWING FOR SUPERMEMORY AND FOR FULLCOMPREHENSION OF WHATEVER MATERIAL I AM EXPOSED TO IN THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE TIME..

 

let me know

 

 

Harry

[turbo]

Thankx T, one more book on my list of those to be read...

 

IF ANYBODY KNOWS OF A SUPERMETHOD TO CHARGE MY BRAIN AND MAKE ME SUPERINTELLIGENT, ALLOWING FOR SUPERMEMORY AND FOR FULLCOMPREHENSION OF WHATEVER MATERIAL I AM EXPOSED TO IN THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE TIME..

 

let me know

 

 

Harry

 

 

Hard Work.

[thelerner]

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[sean]

buddhism vs. yoga..not sure how to compare these two,

Just my two cents here, I've heard it said that the only real fundamental difference between Hindu / Yogic philosophy and Buddhism is the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination.

 

Sean

[turbo]

Just my two cents here, I've heard it said that the only real fundamental difference between Hindu / Yogic philosophy and Buddhism is the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination.

 

Sean

 

Perhaps the philosophy is the same, I can't say as I haven't done the research. However, the meditation technique(s) taught by the buddha to attain enlightment are different those described in Pantajali's yoga sutras.

 

So if Siddartha applied the yogic techniques (it is said that he tried every available technique) and found them insufficent to reach full enlighenment then it follows others should find the same. If it is the collective goal of this community to achieve enlightenment, then perhaps it is in the best interest of the group to abandon yogic techniques and to apply said buddhist ones.

 

In the text "Autobiography of a Yogi" there is a description of Lahiri Mahasaya and his incredible spiritual progress and the powers he possessed. If I remember correctly he manifested a palace for someone to help them fulfill their karma, then made it disappear. Perhpas Siddartha did not encounter kriya yoga. But if he did then according to buddhists he found it insufficient to achieve full enlighenment.

 

From the Wikipedia: The Yoga Sūtras probably date around BC 200.

 

Again from Wikipedia on Buddha: The time of his birth and death are unclear; most modern texts date his lifetime between 563 BCE and 483 BCE, though some recent research may point to a date about a century later than this.

 

While the wikipedia is not the final authority and the dates can not be known with precision, it would appear that the buddha predates the sutras. Meaning that he did not test the efficay of the sutras as Patanjali "authored" them.

 

The thing is that these ideas were not new and Patanjali did not bring them down from the mountian for eveyone to see for the first time. According to the wikipedia: The Yoga Sutras are built on a foundation of Samkhya philosophy and the Bhagavad Gita. In the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali prescribes adherence to eight "limbs" or steps (the sum of which constitute "Ashtanga Yoga", the title of the second chapter) to quiet one's mind and merge with the infinite. These eight limbs not only systematized conventional moral principles espoused by the Bhagavad Gita, but elucidated the practice of Raja Yoga in a more detailed manner.

 

So then Siddartha must have come in contact with at least some form(s) of yoga practice which he found insufficient to achieve enlightenment.

 

Well, I guess that does not answer the question, but its Friday Night and that all the research I'm willing to do for now.

 

Cheers.

[sean]

Not to sound disrespectful or overly curt, but I don't think there is a technique for enlightenment. IMO Buddha would have abandoned "Buddhism" prior to awakening as well, if such a thing had existed.

[turbo]

Not to sound disrespectful or overly curt, but I don't think there is a technique for enlightenment. IMO Buddha would have abandoned "Buddhism" prior to awakening as well, if such a thing had existed.

 

Of course there is...what is mediation? Why do you meditate, if not to achieve some goal? And what is that goal if not enlightment?

 

The buddha used a particular meditation technique to walk to path to enlightenment. Without this technique he would never have realized enlightnement. No technique = no enlightenment. Further, he taught that adherence to the technique would cause enlightenment in those who practiced it.

 

"technique for enlighenment" may not be the proper description, how about "technique that causes enlightenment". it turns out to be more of a lifestyle than just a procedure of the mind, once you consider the 4 truths and the noble 8 fold path.

[sean]

Manifestation is a song sung mysteriously by no one. I would say, something like meditation frequently arises prior to what is called an enlightenment experience. But correlation is not causation. Who is to say that meditation is not a symptom of an inconceivably deeper process? My sense is that it's through something like Grace that real spiritual "progress" occurs. The Tao playfully moves, and on the surface of the lake we see and feel what appears to be a self, "our" self even, engaged in the oh-so very serious discipline of meditation and waking up. Of believing that enlightenment is a result. That enlightenment is causal. That enlightenment is the successful completion of a linear formula or process. But this is just another part of the dream and is also no separate from Tao. Make a person meditate and enlightenment will not follow. There is a great mystery to what brings a person to the cushion and has them return again and again. Surrender for a moment to the possibility that "you" are a fiction and have nothing to do with controlling what arises in awareness. Experiences without an experiencer. Just my two cents and my humble opinion.

[turbo]