Lets Bat It Around Again-what Is Enlightenment

[林愛偉]

The real question is who is the enlightenment and how is it not connected to god?

 

 

Very easy.

 

Enlightenment isn't a religious goal. Neither is being a God. A God can be enlightened, or attain enlightenment. A God is the way he/she is because of their karma, merits and virtue. Enlightenment is fundamental, our true nature; delusion is acquired. A God still has to cultivate to either maintain their karma as God, or put it down and become a Buddha.

 

A God can attain enlightenment just as human can. After all, they were once human, and have had to have a human body in order to attain their outcome as a God.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

P.S.- The real question is why is every one still questioning enlightenment and its connections? The answer...

not enough practice of the teachings which result in enlightenment...also, its not their time due to not watering the seeds of Bodhi.

Edited April 5, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Xienkula1]

;K

Edited April 24, 2008 by Xienkula1

[mwight]

Well I use the dvd metaphor in a non literal sense...

 

These are just my theories of what is going on, I am not enlightened, nor am I sure that true enlightenment is my real aim. I just want to stop the death/rebirth cycle. That is my number one priority.

[mat black]

Well I use the dvd metaphor in a non literal sense...

 

These are just my theories of what is going on, I am not enlightened, nor am I sure that true enlightenment is my real aim. I just want to stop the death/rebirth cycle. That is my number one priority.

Just a suggestion, maybe instead of trying to stop death/rebirth, find out why birth happens. We know why death of the body happens, that's obvious......but investigate why you were born, or what was born.

Question: What causes us to be reborn? Bhagavan: Desires. Your unfulfilled desires bring you back. And in each case-in each body-as your desires are fulfilled, you create new ones. You must conquer desire to be absorbed into the One and thus end rebirth. See how a tree whose branches have been cut grows again. So long as the roots of the tree remain unimpaired, the tree will continue to grow. Similarly, the samskaras (past tendencies) which have merely sunk in the Heart on death, but have not perished for that reason, occasion rebirth at the right time. That is how Jivas (individual souls) are reborn.

 

In one way or another, it's our desires & vasanas (karma) that cause us to be born. The desires are really phantoms that we have created through ignorance, and through habit have focused our attention on them and identified with them. We have given them a reality of their own.

To find the source/reason for birth, find the source of the desire.

So, in investigating the desire, where does the the desire come from? the desire can't exist without one who desires, an 'I'

So we trace this "I', "me" back to it's source...............................

 

.

[seadog]

What of the desire to help other life forms, to ease their burden of suffering.You could journey for a thousand years through the highest heavens but go nowhere if another seninent being continues to suffer.

[mat black]

What of the desire to help other life forms, to ease their burden of suffering.You could journey for a thousand years through the highest heavens but go nowhere if another seninent being continues to suffer.

 

My guess: If it can be called desire, it is a self-less desire. Very different from the typical self gratification type of desires that we have.

Though to a bodhisattva, concepts of self and other are no more, to those still clinging to a notion of self - ego, subsequent sufferings are, due to delusion, real. Having attained wisdom & insight, a bodhisattva chooses to help & save others from their self imposed sufferings.

So to a bodhisattva, it is not desire in the sense of 'me wanting for myself', rather it is an act motivated by pure compassion, the most noble of intentions.

 

Namo Guan Shr Yin Pusa.

Edited April 5, 2008 by mat black

[minkus]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z1RQmnSJoRg

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AXmzcroUmdU

 

cheers !

[rex]

I think you might be missing what I'm getting at. You don't want enlightenment, because it isn't something which will better your life. As a matter of fact it will destroy it. It is a complete and total annihilation of self, identity, ego, life and attachments to loved ones/things.. Awakening is death. A hollowing out of being.

No I think we understand each other perfectly; the difference between our views is that you seem to hold to a nihilistic almost fearful view of enlightenment and I don't. That's all.

[mwight]

No I think we understand each other perfectly; the difference between our views is that you seem to hold to a nihilistic almost fearful view of enlightenment and I don't. That's all.

 

I think when most people talk about enlightenment, what they are really talking about is apotheosis.

 

How would you personally define enlightenment? If it isn't waking up from this dream we call life, what exactly is it then?

[seadog]

My guess: If it can be called desire, it is a self-less desire. Very different from the typical self gratification type of desires that we have.

Though to a bodhisattva, concepts of self and other are no more, to those still clinging to a notion of self - ego, subsequent sufferings are, due to delusion, real. Having attained wisdom & insight, a bodhisattva chooses to help & save others from their self imposed sufferings.

So to a bodhisattva, it is not desire in the sense of 'me wanting for myself', rather it is an act motivated by pure compassion, the most noble of intentions.

 

Namo Guan Shr Yin Pusa.

 

Indeed the intent of pure compassion is enlightenment,all else falls away.

[rex]

How would you personally define enlightenment? If it isn't waking up from this dream we call life, what exactly is it then?

Hi mwight

 

I'm just a confused being relying on the insights of others instead of direct personal experience, so I can't really offer an adequate personal definition beyond the general one given by Dzigar Kontrul earlier on.

 

Now all the teachings I've received say that enlightenment is beyond concepts so nothing that can be said about it will ever be definitive. However, personally, aspects of it can be deduced from how enlightened beings manifest to us in various accounts given by the enlightened traditions themselves.

 

Since one of the titles of the Buddha is the Awakened One, then sure, enlightenment is waking up from this dream of life and death. My personal 'definition' - for what its worth - is at variance to your definition which seems to advise that enlightenment is to be avoided because it leads to a putative annihilation.

 

Is enlightenment a nihilistic "complete and total annihilation of self, identity, ego, life and attachments to loved ones/things"? From the accounts of the lives and enlightenment of the Indian mahasiddhas far from it; there is warmth, humour, outrageous behaviour and compassion. Self, identity, ego, life, attachments and loved ones are put in to a different perspective and instead of being context become content. Indeed the passions and the fifty one mental states are worn as ornaments and are the manifestations of enlightened energy.

Edited April 6, 2008 by rex

[mwight]

Hi mwight

 

I'm just a confused being relying on the insights of others instead of direct personal experience, so I can't really offer an adequate personal definition beyond the general one given by Dzigar Kontrul earlier on.

 

Now all the teachings I've received say that enlightenment is beyond concepts so nothing that can be said about it will ever be definitive. However, personally, aspects of it can be deduced from how enlightened beings manifest to us in various accounts given by the enlightened traditions themselves.

 

Since one of the titles of the Buddha is the Awakened One, then sure, enlightenment is waking up from this dream of life and death. My personal 'definition' - for what its worth - is at variance to your definition which seems to advise that enlightenment is to be avoided because it leads to a putative annihilation.

 

Is enlightenment a nihilistic "complete and total annihilation of self, identity, ego, life and attachments to loved ones/things"? From the accounts of the lives and enlightenment of the Indian mahasiddhas far from it; there is warmth, humour, outrageous behaviour and compassion. Self, identity, ego, life, attachments and loved ones are put in to a different perspective and instead of being context become content. Indeed the passions and the fifty one mental states are worn as ornaments and are the manifestations of enlightened energy.

 

 

I don't view the non-dualistic "nihilistic" version of enlightenment to be a bad thing, I am just saying that if a person achieved this version of enlightenment that they (as defined by egoic terms) would cease to exist. They would no longer be attached to any loved ones, or things, as those people and things would be apart of the dream they left behind when they awoke.

 

If you went to sleep tonight, and realized you were dreaming, would you worry or get "stressed out" too much about anything?

 

In your dream your place of work called, and told you were late, and if you weren't there in 20 minutes you were fired, would you rush to make it in time?

 

What if you were offered millions of dollars, in exchange for a full nights labor? What good is dream money outside the confines of your own mind?

 

 

If you knew for certain it was a dream, like the ones you have at night when you sleep, I don't think you would be to concerned about anything except enjoying it. Relaxing and absorbing all the mystery and wonder and knowing it all emanated from your own mind. Well thats what I would be doing anyway

 

You wouldn't care much about other beings in a nightly dream. After all they were your own subconscious creations, and had no existence outside your own mind, and really were just parts of yourself interacting with you.

 

For all intents and purposes here to us the "dreamers" an enlightened being in this regard would be the same as dead. A being who is completely empty, and hollow. I don't think most people are really searching for this or would even want it if they found it. Thats what I meant by my warning.

 

 

I am not sure really this non-dualistic state of consciousness is true enlightenment, or perhaps the beginning stages of it. but from what I have read it won't stop the rebirth process, which to me is the whole point. What good is truth if you just go to sleep again and forget it. To me stopping rebirth takes priority above truth, because truth thats forgotten is pointless.

 

Certain schools of neigong offer a way to fuse together your yin and yang aspects, and escape the cycle of rebirth. That is really what I am seeking, I will worry more about enlightenment after that milestone if I ever achieve it.

[Todd]

You wouldn't care much about other beings in a nightly dream. After all they were your own subconscious creations, and had no existence outside your own mind, and really were just parts of yourself interacting with you.

 

For all intents and purposes here to us the "dreamers" an enlightened being in this regard would be the same as dead. A being who is completely empty, and hollow. I don't think most people are really searching for this or would even want it if they found it. Thats what I meant by my warning.

 

 

There is some truth in what you say, but there is nothing "just" about realizing that others are parts of yourself. To the extent that one has realized this, then one realizes that there is no escape. If one being is suffering, then that can be felt inside our self. How could it not? It is us.

 

You are right, that perhaps we do not want to recognize this fact. Who would want to know that? And yet, what is true? Are you more interested in feeling good, or knowing the truth?

 

I prefer truth, since truth is the only thing that truly lasts. Suffering is the result of ignoring the one thing that truly lasts. As we identify with the things that do not last, they are torn from us. Trying to hold on is suffering. Trying to give them up is also suffering, because we have not found truth. Truth is the thing that lasts. Have you found anything that lasts? What is it like?

 

The thing about truth is that we can't hold onto anything and know it. We can't even know it. But we can allow ourselves to fall into harmony with it, which is much better than any false knowing.

 

But who could want that? If anyone holds onto my words, they prevent realization of truth. It is the emptiness of truth that makes it function, but truth is much more than "just" empty. The Buddhist term "sunyata" is commonly translated as emptiness. The translation is incomplete, in that there is a connotation of fullness in the original language. Emptiness is just an aspect of truth. If we cling too much to words (or to intentions, which can only be formulated as such with words), we are missing the whole game.

 

You are free to do whatever you want though. I don't see that you should do anything but what you are doing, or think anything but what you are thinking. I just felt moved to say something.