Baguazhang, Cheng style Liu Jingru

[settler]

To keep up with the discussion read the topics: "Building concentration with Mantra", "Yin training vs Yang training" and "A full training program".

 

I started to get interested in Baguazhang when I as reading about Li Ching Yuen, which lived for about 197 years. Three documents confirm hes age so that got me interested in Baguazhang. The style he transmitted was "9 Dragon Baguazhang", but when i start learning, it was a very strong combat style and not balanced to develop Qi like Tai Chi.

 

So i went to learn Jason Tsou Bagua Qigong. Which is a style of Bagua oriented in to Qi developing, but the style was keep hidden for long time and is very poorly develop.

 

I search and try to learn a couple more styles of Baguazhang, other 3 or 4 styles until I found Liu Jingru Cheng style, looked weird and not that easy to master. Like the Wild Goose, looks very odd but highly effective.

 

Liu Jingru was awarded 2 times gold medal in Wushu competitions, a great achievement. This Cheng style is new, very well perfected and improved, with a good balance between Qi and martial art. The DVD is very well explained, in 1 hour Liu goes step by step explained very well all the small details. This is a very important aspect because if you are like me, an there is no master around to teach Baguazhang, you need a high detailed DVD in order to practice well. This is a complex style, a little mistake and your knees pay the bill. He is as good in martial arts as in teaching. A very good investment if you thinking on buying a DVD. Plus this style is used in the movie IP man 2, at the fight of the round table.

 

If you are an advanced practitioner this is a very good complement, if you starting out, Tai Chi or Wild Goose is advised. But if you what to go straight to the gold, go ahead that's probably what you are looking for. From my experience this looks the best option.

 

I read in the forums some criticize about Dr. Yang Baguazhang. A Buddhist oriented style not straight from Beijing Grand Master's circle, which was a high level of Chi realization. It might be a matter of opinion or not, this opinions some times have a solid background behind. Not all stuff is just an opinion as some one stated before.

 

Fell free to post comments, opinions or questions as long you act civilized.

[zerostao]

always good to meet another baguazhang player.

there are a few of us here on this forum.

imo we all need to meet up in person.

[spiraltao]

Nice to meet you! I agree with Zerostao, we all should meet and the energy would be through the roof, plus each one has a unique perspective and a baguazhang player is like a snowflake, right? ...so what I am tryin' to spit out is we would feed off each other and have a great opportunity to here on this forum as well.

 

This is not Cheng style as in Cheng Ting Hua? I am familiar with both Jason Tsou and Liu Jingru's youtube/internet vids. Thanks for the review on the DVD.

[Gerard]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by Gerard

[mjjbecker]

Careful, wushu bagua and wushu in general is a cancer of Traditional IMA. It only values performance and indicates nil internal development. To develop neigung, internal energy, one must work harder and paying constant attention to correct body alignment and avoid ceaseless mind chatter.

 

I would certainly avoid DVDs to train Bagua. Here's a good resource page in terms of foundation work before starting with correct circle walking:

 

http://www.baguaquanlessons.com/5/post/2011/05/the-tree-of-bagua-quan.html

 

Best of luck in your Baguazhang journey.

 

 

A large number of lineage holding bagua-and other internal arts-masters have entered such competitions. A large number are judges for such competitions, or have been in the past. Both the traditional and the new performance elements are taught by several top level masters. It is these same masters who actually designed these competition elements.

 

A large number of lineage masters have done detailed DVD sets for instructional purposes. They don't replace a teacher, because students need correction, but there is some very good information on these DVD's.

 

I don't speak as a bagua beginner like Gerard and I don't do bagua. I only have a couple of decades of internal arts practice so I've a long way to go before I can even truly appreciate the abilities of some of the top level masters. I fancy though I at least have some idea of what is good and what is not. I also try to get some actual personal experience of things before expressing an opinion on them.

 

There are some fine internal arts people that have, and are, involved in competition-yes, the mainland 'Wu Shu' competition stuff. They know their competition stuff but, importantly, they also know their traditions.

 

BTW, Liu Jingru is considered one of the top bagua masters alive. To reference his competition achievements in the same note as a 'cancer' and 'nil internal development' is extraordinarily disrespectful.

[settler]

Thanks for the information. Liu style is great, and worked for me, i know there are a lot more out there, i cant experiment them all. You can correct your self in from of a mirror, i practice in front of a big one. But yes, if you can access to a good master that will be great. But if you can't you have to manage on your own.

 

If we could gather 100 people paying 30 euros you get 3000, probably enough to contact a Chinese master like Liu to come to Europe to teach for a couple of days. That amount of money probably is enough to pay for hes expenses give him some cash and also to rent a space for 3 days for a nice group to train.

 

Schools have those big gyms they can rent for extra cash, people could sleep there, the floor is made of nice wood. In the summer they are free for long periods of time and for a low cost. They also have all necessary conditions like WC and showers.

 

Or you could go in to a more comfortable and expensive approach.

 

Who says 30 also says 40 or 50 euros... depending on the conditions that He asks to come... Much more cheap for all to do this way, then 100 people pay each 3000 euros to go to Chine to train for a couple of days.

 

Now you can consider learning the basic moves from the DVD. If you get in to an event like this, you need to have something to show.

[Gerard]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by Gerard

[settler]

I kind agree with you, but I'm a very resourceful person, but must people will not get with right. To difficult yes it is. Just because of that level, doesn't mean you should not try it. It was very difficult to reach American continent for the Portuguese in those tiny boats but they did it. Didn't they? If you American you could easy be speaking Portuguese instead of English, if they whet north instead of south. English, Spanish and others became so good at the seas because they improved Portuguese boats.

 

"Overcome yourself" - Cristano Ronaldo soccer player.

[mjjbecker]

Hello Gerard,

 

I saw your initial post and will, I hope you don't mind, address the points you made in that.

 

Personally I have no interest in 'performance' routines and 'martial arts' for display purposes. I agree with you in that I've seen some Wushu performers that clearly have no 'internal' understanding at all.

 

The difficulty for teachers now in China, and I expect in many parts of Asia, is that children are expected to devote most of their time to education. If they are going to do some kind of sport, then there has to be some prestige to be gained from it. In years of teaching now in China, I have had numerous arguements with parents only interested in having their child in a higher level class than their peers-despite the class being the wrong level class for their child. Status is more important to most parents I have encountered, with a very notable few being concerned with ability. That is the culture.

 

A hundred years ago people learned bagua and hsing i for practical reasons, with many doing security work. Dong Haichuan worked not only as a teacher of bagua, but also a tax collector (with Yin Fu assisting him in that). Now, the aims are different-though some young people are learning martial arts with a future career in the army, police or private security in mind. There has to be something other than just 'personal development' in it.

 

So, if you are a teacher of martial arts, and you want to get talented young people doing your art, then competition becomes an important part of things. If the parents-and school teachers-can see some status gain from the activity-the winning of prizes and so gaining status and 'face'-then they will approve. Of course the government approves of formal competitions, and China's rulers have never been keen on independently minded martial artists.

 

Here on the mainland, the top level people are involved in competitions. Their students enter competitions. That does not however mean they are not teaching and passing on the traditional aspects of the art. A case in point would be Sun Zhijun, one of the foremost living Cheng stylists. On his DVD's, his assistant is Ms Li Chunling, a competition champion and top disciple. China remains something of a sexist society (so my female students have told me-with family expectations of them being good wives and mothers of the future, irrespective of their personal wishes). To see one of the top teachers have a female top disciple then she must indeed be very good. Observing her in the DVD's I know I would not want to cross hands with her (particularly if she had a weapon, which are the great equalizers).

 

As for the subject of DVD's and money, the performers are getting very little money in return for their efforts. How do I know this? These DVD's sell for 20-40 yuan here. That is the retail. So the percentage the performer is getting will be a small amount indeed. If anyone is getting a high margin it is the retailers, particularly some in the west. I have seen some people selling the VCD's-which sell for around 15 yuan-for $20-$50 in some cases. The retailers are coining it-the performers certainly are not. On top of that, martial arts instructional DVD's and VCD's are not selling in any great numbers. It is strictly a niche market.

 

As for the arch, you should check out the Chu neigong. It is a fundamental element of what is taught, and how to do this is explained in detail. I actually suspect, from some of what I've seen, that some schools of Yang taijiquan have a real bagua influence. Given the imperial palace link that shouldn't be a surprise.

[settler]

I actually suspect, from some of what I've seen, that some schools of Yang taijiquan have a real bagua influence. Given the imperial palace link that shouldn't be a surprise.

 

Very true, that's why i included Taiji yang short form in my training program. The principle of Bagua is circular motion. This can be walking in circle or doing circular movements with the arms. If you inspect Yang form, you will see all arm movements making circles. It makes it a Bagua training also. That's why its so effective and has been the most adopted form of Taiji.

Edited December 5, 2011 by settler

[baiqi]

I love Bagua Zhang, all "styles", although there are some I like more than the others.

 

Liu Jingru's bagua looks very nice, but, IMO, too many movements, too many low stances (which isn't a bad thing in itself).

 

It seems good for health and fitness, I have some doubts about the martial aspects.

 

Depends what you're looking for...

[settler]

It seems good for health and fitness, I have some doubts about the martial aspects.

Depends what you're looking for...

 

Very true the program I'm setting up is for health and longevity mainly.

 

Found out this very nice basic instructions, it may be of use to some one: http://www.maguibagua.net/fundamental_skills/1_circle-walking_basics.html

 

I check Sun Zhi Jun Cheng style it looks good also, he is very good at what he does, as Mjjbecker mention before.

 

 

Hes style is more martial applicable, fluently and with more speed.

[Andrei]

Linear Bagua:

 

 

[zerostao]

yeah you can learn it in the linear form and for some this may be easier for learning purposes.

i am not knocking the linear form at all. all bagua is fantastic.

but at some point imo, if you cant put it on the circle then it isnt what it could be.

forget about speed. be fluid in your movement. smooth.

[Protector]

FINE I'LL START WALKING AGAIN, ENOUGH WITH THE THREADS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Gerard]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by Gerard

[RobB]

Let me quote here BKF, the Westerner that probably knows Chinese IMA better than anyone else today:

 

 

Hi Gerard,

 

Firstly, thanks for your many interesting posts. Secondly - I just wanted to point out that there are people who would disagree with the statement you made above. BKF clearly has a wealth of experience but he's not the only one out there. There are certainly westerners who have travelled further and studied as, if not more, deeply than he has.

 

I would include names such as Paul Whitrod and Serge Augier on that list and they're just the ones I've heard of.

 

But Bruces marketing-fu does certainly rule the roost!

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[settler]

...All bagua is fantastic.but at some point imo, if you cant put it on the circle then it isnt what it could be.

 

I must disagree with you. Xing Yi Quan which is just linear forms, have pretty high practitioners. The principle is repetition. Repeat only a few exercises until you find the Qi. Keep repeating for 500 times if you have to. A very methodical approach which works great. If you practicing Bagua poorly. Xing Yi Quan will kick your ass. Not at physical but in Qi level. Although Bagua have the potential to move more Qi, it doesn't mean you are moving more Qi. It means you have a greater potential to do so.

 

I speak of my practice. I decided to learn that Youtube 64 hands linear Bagua which is pretty close to Xing Yi Quan, and I'm getting great results in repeating that short form 3 times a day. But that doesn't mean i don't like Baguazhang nor i don't practice it.

 

Xing Yi Quan kind got me there, they manage to learn Qi in a very simple approach, with higher results. Go check Youtube mid level practitioners on Xing Yi Quan and then check Baguazhang mid's, after that come here and tell me who have a greater level. You will agree that Xing Yi Quan students have a superior power level.

 

In Dr. Yang books about base theory, he speaks of different potential. The more Qi you move, more different potential is created. Which means, if you move great amount of Qi to a part of the body, it flows back and clears Qi blockage and strengthen the body.

 

Xing Yi Quan practitioners believe in straight power and they are also right in that approach. Bagua rotated to create power, but it requires a lot of footwork, it many not be that easy to achieve. If you prefer the hammer approach and not the torch it will be also ok. You get the hammer and nail, hit the nail and that's it, simple and easy. If you want to be more fancy, get some gas to the torch, tune the torch and then maybe you get more power then the hammer. You know what i mean.

 

If you read all my topics was suggested, you will see that I advise people to start with what works better. Wild Goose is great to develop the filing of Qi. From there, climb your way in the forms. Or not. Xing Yi Quan states "stay with the simplest". You may have to choose for your self. If you don't have time to "climb", is not good to be wondering around, from form to form and from style to style. Because its about exploring, if you don't have time to do that better stay with the simplest.

 

This bring us to the reason behind the creation of the topic "yin training vs yang training". Wild Goose is not like Bagua, Tai Chi, or Xing Yi Quan. It doesn't create a different potential, it manipulates Qi. When you reach a high level of Qi manipulation, i consider a draining activity. Especially to do that on a daily basis. That's why i adverted to the dangers behind the Yin training, but i could was easy make a topic called "Different potential vs Manipulation of Qi". More accurate, but that doesn't mean the contend inside the topic "yin training vs yang training" is not accurate. It means you need some good bases to understand the topic.

 

To resume this subject, Wild Goose is great to make you understand and experience the Qi, which could allow the training of different potential to be more successful. the wild goose form opens the gates or Chakras it can really open the body to absorb more Qi, and that's the reason why i call it yin training, its oriented to absorb energy. And not to generate Qi as the Different Potential training.

 

I saw a video o yang-meijung practicing with soft hands, maybe that's what you are suppose to practice, after reaching that level of Qi manipulating. That's why Wild Goose have around 11 forms. That includes Bagua also. With so many years of great practice they put together a good system. But the system of training still need better explanations. Making a DVD saying, do this and you may get to that point, is just pointless. And that Dr. Binku Hu is the worst, i quote him "why learn a complex system of rules when you can just practice a freely set of movements". Wild Goose has nothing of freely movements. In order to manipulate the Qi you need to be very accurate on the movements and not only that, there's also a time to practice width which form. Now i'm aware that after 6 mounts of daily practice with a form you are suppose to move in to the next one.

 

Qigong masters obscure the training, if they didn't maybe we all have a superior set to train. When i say this i also include Yang mei-jung Wild Goose grand master up to recent years. Look at Dr. Binku Hu. Who teach him so little about the internal Qi work? Obviously was Yang mei-jung, this means she intentionally didn't teach him all that she knew. To him and many others who went there to receive the true teaching and got only half of it.

 

That "Magus of Java" or John Chang is another alike, they reach a high level and teach it only to a few selected. For what purpose? Who knows, but misleading people is wrong. Its immoral. If that guy who published that book on him, used hes time to read Dr. Yang base theory and practice, by now, when he saw people moving big amounts of Qi, instead of being there with is mouth open he hold say, big deal i can do that.

 

Qi is not only important to public display but for health reasons, look at that Chang guy he can really cure people illness. People disagree with public displays, but is a motivation to get more people to practice. No one want to practice something that is useless.

[zerostao]

i was speaking of the linear bagua from , not all linear forms. and i like the linear bagua form , i was just saying that specificaly to bagua, it may be useful to learn it from the linear form but at some later point apply it on the circle. if one is wanting to be a bgz player.

imo xingyiquan is the best route to IMA for the majority of folks. i do play san ti shi, 5 fists and the linking form, i do not do 10 or 12 animals xingyiquan. as most of my efforts go into BGz and mostly circle walking.

yesterday and into late evening the best taiji guy i have around here locally came by to play baguazhang.

i have never claimed to be any expert on anything especially IMA's. not sure sometimes when people talk of qi manipulation what they are actually referring to.

i am not high level. if i hold sword fingers 10 inches from a candle flame(not a tea lite but a 3 inch candle) and without any external movement , i can put out the flame. is this qi manipulation of some type? idk ?? if i use my palm , i can make the flame spiral from top to bottom and extinguish. idk. sometimes i do this at parties. i have friends here who can out do me with candle play. i am just speaking of my experience.

i have heard a bit about wild goose , maybe you could start a thread or put in personal practice section, i would be interested to know more about those experiences.

[realfastcat]

Zerostao I am not that far a drive from you. I am in the Corbin/Barbourville area.

Is it cool for me to drive over and watch some of you and/or your friends "candle play" ?

This talk of Linear and Circular is all interesting and all, But I subscribe to Angular Ideas and Speed.

Leopard Style here. Still, I would like to observe the "candle play".

[zerostao]

Zerostao I am not that far a drive from you. I am in the Corbin/Barbourville area.

Is it cool for me to drive over and watch some of you and/or your friends "candle play" ?

This talk of Linear and Circular is all interesting and all, But I subscribe to Angular Ideas and Speed.

Leopard Style here. Still, I would like to observe the "candle play".

 

 

of course , i PMed ya. realize b4 ya drive over here, i aint really all that. but i look forward to meeting up.

[KoHsuan]

Gerard,

You forget about student C who is talking about bagua's books he read and DVD's who seen and then maybe doing some circles

 

regarding alchohol - that could be part of internal work too! especially if one following daoist road..

 

 

 

1. Student A walks the circle for two revolutions in each direction and then proceeds with a palm change. This student complains if student B asks him to increase the number of revolutions.

 

Number of Palms: 8

Total number of revolutions: 32

 

2. Student B arrives 1 h early before the class walks the circle for 10 revolutions in each direction and then proceeds with a palm change. This student is building up the number of circles walked on both directions. He is aiming at 30 revolutions for each of the 8 palms.

 

Number of Palms: 8

Total number of revolutions: 160

 

Note:

 

1. Student A doesn't practice sitting meditation, is engaged in social activities with friends and consumes alcohol often.

 

2. Student B practices meditation on a daily basis, goes early to bed and follows a spiritually conducive lifestyle.

 

 

[Gerard]

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Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard