Taoism and Politics

[Encephalon]

Edited December 3, 2011 by Encephalon

[zerostao]

most excellent post Encephalon.

[Birch]

Great! Thanks very much!

[zerostao]

tao literally signifies a way or a road. the oldest form of character is comprised of 3 elements. (going back to oracle bones)

respectively, a road, a human head, and a human foot. in my view the the road is the path in which the head(a ruler) and the foot (a follower) travel together along this road.

may we reasonably interpret this as the leader and follower united in finding and traveling on this road/path?

it only works with a leader and followers who have virtue and work for a common unity.

it is well known on this forum that i am an anarchist. the road/path that we are on needs to be on sympathetic understanding ground.

[Encephalon]

My feelings are dreadfully hurt by the failure of this important post to catch attention!

 

Just kidding although I have to say that the authors make a persuasive case that Taoism resonates very will with anarchism, and that that a thorough grasp of this connection would go far in refining the political debates that we bring to this forum.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

My feelings are dreadfully hurt by the failure of this important post to catch attention!

 

Just kidding although I have to say that the authors make a persuasive case that Taoism resonates very will with anarchism, and that that a thorough grasp of this connection would go far in refining the political debates that we bring to this forum.

 

 

As a long time Taoist, and an even longer time anarchist, I'd say that Taoism and Anarchist politics fit very nicely together.

 

I seem to remember Osho stating, in his opinion, Taoism was the ultimate rebellion.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

My feelings are dreadfully hurt by the failure of this important post to catch attention!

 

Just kidding although I have to say that the authors make a persuasive case that Taoism resonates very will with anarchism, and that that a thorough grasp of this connection would go far in refining the political debates that we bring to this forum.

 

yeah, my attempt didn't work too good either

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20878-taoism-anarchism/

 

 

This is also a great book of Taoist political philosophical teachings:

 

 

Being written by Taoist sages, it is more than just political philosophies but also speaks about Tao, change, humanity, meditation, wisdom, etc...

[Owledge]

I didn't read the whole thing, but this line caught my attention:

 

Political factions, the Dao de Jing suggests, should be dealt with according to their accomplishments, not their promises or their theories.

 

Isn't it funny how there is a perceived need to remind people of utter trivialities like this? To that quote one can only say "Of course!", but still a great number of people disregard this.

 

I think it's because it is wisdom, and although it is very trivial and apparent wisdom, wisdom has to be cultivated and practiced, using intellect. But if you are ruled by emotion and intellect is disregarded, wisdoms like the quoted one will have no place in your reasoning. Emotion and intellect need to be in balance. You only follow the path of emotion, and that weakness will be exploited, just as a state of emotionlessness will be exploited. Some of the loveliest people you know might also be the most misled you can imagine.

[Encephalon]

yeah, my attempt didn't work too good either

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20878-taoism-anarchism/

 

 

This is also a great book of Taoist political philosophical teachings:

 

 

Being written by Taoist sages, it is more than just political philosophies but also speaks about Tao, change, humanity, meditation, wisdom, etc...

 

Yep, I have my Cleary translation in "On the acquisition of Power." As one reviewer said, "It's almost spooky how relevent these truths are for our modern age." True enough.

[Owledge]

Yep, I have my Cleary translation in "On the acquisition of Power." As one reviewer said, "It's almost spooky how relevent these truths are for our modern age." True enough.

That might be because books with old knowledge are often the teachers of people who are basing their career on the acquisition of power. It's simple: You follow old stuff, you get a repetition of history. Macchiavelli is very popular today, too. And it's also not a coincidence that the highly imperialistic USA have Roman/fascist symbols everywhere.

[Encephalon]

That might be because books with old knowledge are often the teachers of people who are basing their career on the acquisition of power. It's simple: You follow old stuff, you get a repetition of history. Macchiavelli is very popular today, too. And it's also not a coincidence that the highly imperialistic USA have Roman/fascist symbols everywhere.

 

Sorry, I may have falsely set you up. The book I own that contains the Lessons from the Masters of Huainan is The Book of Leadership and Strategy, not Thunder in the Sky: The Acquisition of Power.

[Chang]

Political factions, the Dao de Jing suggests, should be dealt with according to their accomplishments, not their promises or their theories.

 

 

A proverb which comes to mind when considering politicians is:

"Much blossom and little fruit,

that is the work of God.

Many words and few deeds,

that is the fault of man,"

[chi 2012]

I've been trying to use Zen thinking to figure out if I should vote for Democrats or Libertarians - but I haven't had much luck. Still confused. Deepak Chopra - seems to make some sense about Obama taking the middle road. Are most Taoists really Libertarians?

Edited January 11, 2012 by chi 2012

[Protector]

I've been trying to use Zen thinking to figure out if I should vote for Democrats or Libertarians - but I haven't had much luck. Still confused. Deepak Chopra - seems to make some sense about Obama taking the middle road. Are most Taoists really Libertarians?

 

the heck are you talking about?

[Owledge]

I've been trying to use Zen thinking to figure out if I should vote for Democrats or Libertarians - but I haven't had much luck. Still confused. Deepak Chopra - seems to make some sense about Obama taking the middle road. Are most Taoists really Libertarians?

What is "Zen thinking"?

Maybe the good old 'empirical thinking' helps here. Deepak Chopra is naive. He has been enchanted by Obama's psycho-marketing campaign.

 

Let me re-quote a trivial wisdom mentioned earlier:

"Political factions, the Dao de Jing suggests, should be dealt with according to their accomplishments, not their promises or their theories."

 

Apply that to single politicians, too. You know, before the Bush era, people like Dick Cheney used to be known among intelligence agencies as "the crazies". Then the nightmare happened and they formed the administration. And now Obama is bordering on that same craziness, judging by his bellicose and unprovokedly aggressive statements.

Not to mention how he continued the old game of doing the opposite of what he promised during election campaign.

And I really don't see how it is the "middle road", as the country with the most nuclear weapons, bound by a treaty to reduce them but actually developing new ones, and being the only country to ever have used nukes against another country, to unilaterally threaten a country with war and adding a threat of 'preventive' nuclear first-strike, all solely based on own, and disproven or unproven allegations. This is not middle path, it's good ol' warmongering and the unsurpassed U.S. brand of hypocrisy that is expressed in utmost craziness by people like Hillary Clinton, with Obama being a close second.

 

And you are seriously considering voting for more of that?

You have "2012" in your name. Referring to the 'prophecies'? You think some major turmoil is happening towards the end of 2012? Well, where do you think the potential for causing that is situated? Who wants peace right now and who just can't accept that and keep their fingers still? Things are so close to boiling point that you don't even have to look for politicians' deeds, because they're openly speaking their mind. One half of the world is saying that war has no place in a reformed world and the other half is talking about war all the time.

 

I recommend not voting for any group that you do not agree with. I had a nice chat a while ago with a guy on a boat trip. He said he still thinks that of republicans and democrats, democrats are the lesser evil, so he votes for them, since it doesn't make sense voting for a group that has no chance of winning.

I explained to him that by thinking like that he gives away his power to shape reality according to his ideas, and helps the politicians shape reality according to their ideas. It is part of the practice of self-empowerment and sincerity to not succumb to that age-old psycho-game of "lesser-evil" and "vote for winners", but to vote according to your own convictions and wishes for the world. If enough people do that, those who was once said to have no chance will win.

There are even practical examples of so many political parties that started out small and gradually grew.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Owledge

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I dunno, Ron Paul would be great for about a year and a half before he is forcibly removed in one way or another, making room for even more madness.

 

I suppose either way, he is the rightful president as he's the only one who still wants to uphold the statutes of the country. I think the Tao is in his favour, but there's more to it than that as to whether he'll win.

 

I'm sure the powers that be will frame him with turmoil and turn everything even more upside down.

 

Obama plays ball with the power that be, I think, as there's no other way to do it. I mean really, do you think McCain would have been better?

At least the world started in the right direction for something to happen.

 

Don't you have to be a registered Republican to vote on this? I'm not a U.S.of A.ian.

[Owledge]

At least the world started in the right direction for something to happen.

Referring to what here?

 

Obama plays ball with the power that be

I think the better metaphor is that he's the mascot.

 

As far as I know, Ron Paul is not the only candidate wanting to uphold the constitution.

And he won't be available for another try for president. He said where he is now, he can do a lot of good.

In the current system, Ron Paul would never become president, not even 'by accident'. When Paul ran for president, there was heavy election fraudregarding his votes and also in the media ... but who knows about that?

Control over the outcome is well enough. The fact that elections are so often a very close call show that the controllers aren't panicking... that they only apply as much manipulative influence as is required. Close call all the time is not coincidence.

 

By the way... I used to say that Gore instead of Bush as president might have been no better. After (D)Obama's performance so far, maybe you understand why.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Owledge

[Harmonious Emptiness]

!. How many voters probably didn't even know his name before this nominee election?

 

By "started in the right direction for something to happen," I mean Obama has been like the Yin recovery of the country, sh*^& he almost got you free medicare and you TRU' DAT SHIT BACK in his face! He's not in power, but what do want outta that situation?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Owledge]

I don't know the details, but I'm sceptical about who actually made free medicare not happen. Can you please provide some info about that? Who had the means? Which process was involved? Which party's representatives had how much influence?

I'm just trying to figure out who you mean by "you".

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I don't know the details, but I'm sceptical about who actually made free medicare not happen. Can you please provide some info about that? Who had the means? Which process was involved? Which party's representatives had how much influence?

I'm just trying to figure out who you mean by "you".

 

Seems these monitors are further away than we thought if you didn't know who you was.

[Owledge]

I didn't participate in the political process of the USA.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I didn't participate in the political process of the USA.

 

yeah, don't take it personally.

 

In regards to earlier questions, it's difficult to look at Taoism from "Left and Right" politics, but I guess it could be.

 

I'd say the government is (supposed to be) more Yin, nurturing. Obviously Left seems more Yin.

So does that mean Right is yang? Right is also (supposed to be) pretty "leave it be" which is more yin than Left government initiative. So they're both yin-yang at the same time.

 

not to reference a 3rd time about the yin/yang of left leaning Anarchism, and Anarcho- Mutualism.

 

I don't think government or majority participation is entirely necessary for Anarcho-Mutualism to happen simultaneously with them, which would be better, imo, than trying to change everything else.

 

Where did I hear this story?: "The king said 'cover the ground with furs' and the Buddha(?) said 'no, just cover your feet with sandals.'"

[Owledge]

Thesis: A government that is at least not predominantly yang is rarely to be seen, if at all. The basic concept of government as it is seen today (= 'people in power' and lobbyism instead of servants doing the bureaucratic and administrative work) already bears the yang principle within.

[joeblast]

I don't know the details, but I'm sceptical about who actually made free medicare not happen. Can you please provide some info about that? Who had the means? Which process was involved? Which party's representatives had how much influence?

The whole notion of it being "free" is part of the problem. It is not free in any way shape or form. People treating it as free...when you dont have any dog in the fight, no skin in the game, you have less concrete basis for caring about a good outcome because you've never really had the resources confiscated to enough of an extent that you notice how badly those resources are being mismanaged. How many people go to the ballot box in order to vote for the person that will give them the most "free shit?" I had acquaintances of mine vote for Obama simply on the singular reason that they heard they'd be getting a decent tax rebate if he got into office! How despicable is that, especially in light of the fact that every dollar the government spends or hands out in whatever fashion is a dollar taken from citizens. When the government abuses its authority to legally take the fruits of its citizens labor to arbitrary extents, the growth factor suffers.

 

Liberal policies are sorta like "fully immersing oneself" in taoist practices, but then refusing to stop masturbating every single day, twice or thrice even, telling oneself that those extra resources wont be missed. Eventually one makes progress outwardly with a rotting shell on the inside because the mechanations that make it all work rely rather fundamentally on those resources. Hopefully the american people are over their hope & change orgasm and are moving on to supporting methods that actually work

[Cameron]

It's interesting one of my qigong teachers is very left wing. A "Boulderite" who when asked about what he thought about George Bush's book Bush's Brain at a qigong class responded "what brain?"

 

Another time I saw in in Arizona when Bush wass till President and he was speaking about Native American practices. He said he thought our country was being run by the biggest criminals on the planet.

 

Then, another one of my qigong teachers is the head of the Republican Party in Arizona. When I saw a video of him speaking about Obama he sounded very against him and that they(Republicans) had the answer.

 

Even in my own family, my Mother is totally right and my father is totally left. To be honest, I voted for Bush the first time, Kerry the second and then stayed out of the last election. Obama seems like a cool guy but I just don't know enough about all the issues anymore and too many people I respect are so polarized on these different views.

 

Naturally, If I had to pick a side the left sounds more my style. Butmaybe it's just a phase lol..