Chuang Tzu Chapter 5, Section E

[Marblehead]

Section E

 

A person who had no lips, whose legs were bent so that he could only walk on his toes, and who was (otherwise) deformed, addressed his counsels to duke Ling of Wei, who was so pleased with him, that he looked on a perfectly formed man as having a lean and small neck in comparison with him. Another who had a large goitre like an earthenware jar addressed his counsels to duke Huan of Qi, who was so pleased with him that he looked on a perfectly formed man as having a neck lean and small in comparison with him. So it is that when one's virtue is extraordinary, (any deficiency in) his bodily form may be forgotten. When men do not forget what is (easily) forgotten, and forget what is not (easily) forgotten, we have a case of real oblivion. Therefore the sagely man has that in which his mind finds its enjoyment, and (looks on) wisdom as (but) the shoots from an old stump; agreements with others are to him but so much glue ; kindnesses are (but the arts of) intercourse; and great skill is (but as) merchants' wares. The sagely man lays no plans; of what use would wisdom be to him? He has no cutting and hacking to do; of what use would glue be to him? He has lost nothing; of what use would arts of intercourse be to him? He has no goods to dispose of; what need has he to play the merchant? (The want of) these four things are the nourishment of (his) Heavenly (nature); that nourishment is its Heavenly food. Since he receives this food from Heaven, what need has he for anything of man's (devising)? He has the bodily form of man, but not the passions and desires of (other) men. He has the form of man, and therefore he is a man. Being without the passions and desires of men, their approvings and disapprovings are not to be found in him. How insignificant and small is (the body) by which he belongs to humanity! How grand and great is he in the unique perfection of his Heavenly (nature)!

 

Huizi said to Zhuangzi, 'Can a man indeed be without desires and passions?' The reply was, 'He can.' 'But on what grounds do you call him a man, who is thus without passions and desires?' Zhuangzi said, 'The Dao gives him his personal appearance (and powers); Heaven gives him his bodily form; how should we not call him a man?' Huizi rejoined, 'Since you call him a man, how can he be without passions and desires?' The reply was, 'You are misunderstanding what I mean by passions and desires. What I mean when I say that he is without these is, that this man does not by his likings and dislikings do any inward harm to his body - he always pursues his course without effort, and does not (try to) increase his (store of) life.' Huizi rejoined, 'If there were not that increasing of (the amount) of life, how would he get his body?' Zhuangzi said, 'The Dao gives him his personal appearance (and powers); Heaven gives him his bodily form; and he does not by his likings and dislikings do any internal harm to his body. But now you, Sir, deal with your spirit as if it were something external to you, and subject your vital powers to toil. You sing (your ditties), leaning against a tree; you go to sleep, grasping the stump of a rotten dryandra tree. Heaven selected for you the bodily form (of a man), and you babble about what is strong and what is white.'

[konchog uma]

from "Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales and Parables" -by Victor Mair

 

Lipless Clubfoot Scattered offered his counsels to Duke Ling of

Wey. The duke was so pleased with him that he looked upon

people whose bodies were whole as having spindly shins. Jar

Goiter offered his counsels to Duke Huan of Ch'i. The duke was

so pleased with him that he looked upon people whose bodies

were whole as having scraggy necks.

Thus, when one's integrity is outstanding, the physical form

will be forgotten. If people do not forget what they usually

forget, but instead forget what they usually do not forget, that

may be called true forgetting .

 

Therefore, the sage has a place where he wanders, and

considers knowledge as a curse, convention as glue, virtue as a

social grace, and craft as commerce. The sage hatches no

schemes, so what use has he for knowledge? He does no splitting,

so what use has he for glue? He has no deficiency, so what use has

he for virtue? He does no peddling, so what use has he for

commerce? These four are the gruel of heaven. The gruel of

heaven is sustenance from heaven. Since he receives sustenance

from heaven, what use has he for man? He has a human form, but

is without human emotions. Because he has a human form, he

groups together with other men . Because he is without human

emotions, "right" and "wrong" have no effect upon him. How

insignificant and small is that part of him which belongs to

humanity! How grand and great is his singular identification

with heaven!

[konchog uma]

i am certainly glad to get away from what a loser confucius was, and back to daoist sageliness.

 

I like the idea of being nourished by heaven and having no need for things like knowledge and convention. Sort of an "in the world but not of it" kind of idea, except instead of being spaced out, its like the sage has gone beyond the world into non-duality or the clarity of transcendence or something similar. I like that Chuang doesn't really say what is the cause of the insight, he just talks about how it manifests.

 

And i love the line about forgetting what isnt ordinarily forgotten!! Ahh i had started to miss the Chuang Tzu that i could relate to (as evidenced by my tardiness in posting the Mair for 5,D)... so nice to read something refreshing and excellent

[Marblehead]

i am certainly glad to get away from what a loser confucius was, and back to daoist sageliness.

 

True, but that is a common means of presenting ideals. You first discredit other ideals and then state why your ideals is better.

 

But I do agree that beating up on Confucius doesn't really help.

[ChiDragon]

闉 跂 支 離 無 脤 ， 說 衛 靈 公 ， 靈 公 悅 之 ， 而 視 全 人 ， 其 脰 肩 肩 。 甕 盎 大 癭 說 齊 桓 公 ， 桓 公 悅 之 ， 而 視 全 人 ， 其 脰 肩 肩 。 故 德 有 所 長 ， 而 形 有 所 忘 ， 人 不 忘 其 所 忘 ， 而 忘 其 所 不 忘 ， 忘 謂 誠 忘 。

 

翻譯:

 

一個跛腳、傴背、缺嘴的人遊說衛靈公，衛靈公十分喜歡他；再看看那些體形完 整的人，他們的脖頸實在是太細太細了。一個頸瘤大如甕盎的人遊說齊桓公，齊桓公十分喜歡他；再看看那些體形完整的人，他們的脖頸實在是太細太細的了。所 以，在德行方面有超出常人的地方而在形體方面的缺陷別人就會有所遺忘，人們不會忘記所應當忘記的東西，而忘記了所不應當忘記的東西，這就叫做真正的遺忘。

 

 

English translation:

There was someone who was crippled with a hunch back and cleft palate was sent to canvass King Ling of the State of Wei. King Ling likes him very much. Let's look at those who are normal, their necks are really small and narrow. There was another one with a tumor on his neck which make his neck look as big as an urn. He was sent to canvass King Huan of the State of Chi. King Huan likes him very much. Again, let's look at those who are normal, their necks are really small and narrow. Hence, those who has high virtues but with handicaps were forgotten by others. However, people do not forget what they suppose to forget; but always have forgotten what they not suppose to forget. Hence, that's what really was called oblivion.

Edited December 21, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

However, people do not forget what they suppose to forget; but always have forgotten what they not suppose to forget.

 

That is an understatement if ever there was one.

[ChiDragon]

That is an understatement if ever there was one.

I see you have a good memory....

[Marblehead]

I see you have a good memory....

 

Hehehe. Yeah, it still functions pretty good for an old man.

[ChiDragon]

For some reason, I thought you might say that...........

[Marblehead]

For some reason, I thought you might say that...........

 

Hehehe. Yeah, there are certain aspects of my life that are predictable.

[dust]

I'm surprised this didn't get more discussion. I'm surprised the whole damn book hasn't had pages of discussions... but hey. Once I'm done with the Laozi I'll get around to translating ZZ too

 

Anyway, I think the versions I'm reading (Watson and Legge) have both mistranslated a bit, and wondered what others think.

 

天選子之形，子以堅白鳴

Heaven selected for you the bodily form (of a man), and you babble about what is strong and what is white. (Legge)

Heaven picked out a body for you and you use it to gibber about `hard' and `white' (Watson)

 

Babble about hard and white? Does this mean anything?

 

Would "persist in vain babble/gibber" not make more sense?

 

堅 -- strong/persist

白 -- white/vain/empty

鳴 -- sound/cry

 

Well, one problem is that 白 might not have come to mean 'vain' or 'empty' until later than ZZ... but I don't know.. Any helpers? Other ideas?

[Marblehead]

I'm surprised this didn't get more discussion. I'm surprised the whole damn book hasn't had pages of discussions... but hey. Once I'm done with the Laozi I'll get around to translating ZZ too

Even though I pick on you now and again I really do appreciate the effort you have put forth regarding the study of Taoist literature.

 

That would be great if you started in on the Chuang Tzu. Perhaps we can one day complete the study. I know that one of the problems is the length of some of the stories but that's how the book is written.

[Marblehead]

Well, one problem is that 白 might not have come to mean 'vain' or 'empty' until later than ZZ... but I don't know.. Any helpers? Other ideas?

I can't help with the characters, of course, but the message is that a life is being wasted by endlessly talk about things that really don't matter.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

I'm surprised this didn't get more discussion. I'm surprised the whole damn book hasn't had pages of discussions... but hey. Once I'm done with the Laozi I'll get around to translating ZZ too

 

Anyway, I think the versions I'm reading (Watson and Legge) have both mistranslated a bit, and wondered what others think.

 

天選子之形，子以堅白鳴

Heaven selected for you the bodily form (of a man), and you babble about what is strong and what is white. (Legge)

Heaven picked out a body for you and you use it to gibber about `hard' and `white' (Watson)

 

Babble about hard and white? Does this mean anything?

 

Would "persist in vain babble/gibber" not make more sense?

 

堅 -- strong/persist

白 -- white/vain/empty

鳴 -- sound/cry

 

Well, one problem is that 白 might not have come to mean 'vain' or 'empty' until later than ZZ... but I don't know.. Any helpers? Other ideas?

 

A thinker, 公孫龍, during Waring States, was using two separate senses to identify a solid white rock. It was known as "堅白論", a theory of a solid white rock.

 

The solid white rock has three entities. The hardness, whiteness and the rock itself. He was using the two senses by touching and seeing, separately, to identify the rock. One can only sense two things at a time but not three. For example, by touching, one can only feel the hardness and the rock but no whiteness. Thus one has a hard rock. By seeing, one can only see the whiteness and the rock but no hardness. Then, one has a white rock but never a white hard rock.

 

鳴 is short for an idiom 自鳴得意: smug; dogmatic

 

子以堅白鳴:

This guy was being looking so smug by knowing the theory of a solid white rock.

 

 

Ref: A theory of a solid white rock

Edited December 1, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

 

A thinker, 公孫龍, during Waring States, was using two separate senses to identify a solid white rock. It was known as "堅白論", a theory of a solid white rock.

 

The solid white rock has three entities. The hardness, whiteness and the rock itself. He was using the two senses by touching and seeing, separately, to identify the rock. One can only sense two things at a time but not three. For example, by touching, one can only feel the hardness and the rock but no whiteness. Thus one has a hard rock. By seeing, one can only see the whiteness and the rock but no hardness. Then, one has a white rock but never a white hard rock.

 

Thank you!

 

 

I can't help with the characters, of course, but the message is that a life is being wasted by endlessly talk about things that really don't matter.

 

And thanks to CD's response we don't have to, in this case at least

 

 

Even though I pick on you now and again

 

No more than anyone else does...online or in the 'real world'. Heh

 

 

That would be great if you started in on the Chuang Tzu. Perhaps we can one day complete the study. I know that one of the problems is the length of some of the stories but that's how the book is written.

 

Well I've been reading it again recently, Watson's translation mostly, and this time reading the Chinese of the sections I particularly enjoy, and I have to say that the more I read the more it becomes the best thing I've ever read.

 

Not to be too down on Legge again, but part of the problem with his translations it that he makes sentences over-long and complicated, and adds in words and ideas that aren't there. By the time I've finished a paragraph, I can't remember exactly what the beginning was about. I think that dissuaded me from falling in love with the Zhuangzi years ago when I first stumbled across it in the library.

 

Watson's done a much better job of keeping it readable, if not necessarily always 100% accurate.

[Taoist Texts]

Watson's done a much better job of keeping it readable, if not necessarily always 100% accurate.

 

He he;) what does parable of the fishes say in his translation?

[Marblehead]

Although I have not seen a "complete" (all 32 chapters) translation by Lin Yutang, I do enjoy reading his translation. He uses more down-to-earth words and this is how I would expect Chuang Tzu to have generally spoken in his real life.

 

 

Oh, also, there is a revised version of Legge's translation that reads much smoother than the original.

 

 

But yes, I too generally refer to Watson's translation when I am looking for something.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Marblehead

[dust]

He he;) what does parable of the fishes say in his translation?

 

Not sure... if it's not in the Inner Chapters (it might be..but I can't remember) then I probably am not fully aware of it.. why?

[Marblehead]

Which fishes are y'all talking about?

[Taoist Texts]

these ones. What dya all think this is about?

 

 

莊子與惠子遊於濠梁之上。莊子曰：「儵魚出遊從容，是魚樂也。」惠子曰：「子非魚，安知魚之樂？」莊子曰：「子非我，安知我不知魚之樂？」惠子曰：「我非子，固不知子矣；子固非魚也，子之不知魚之樂全矣。」莊子曰：「請循其本。子曰『汝安知魚樂』云者，既已知吾知之而問我，我知之濠上也。」

 

Zhuangzi and Huizi were walking on the dam over the Hao, when the former said, 'These thryssas come out, and play about at their ease - that is the enjoyment of fishes.' The other said, 'You are not a fish; how do you know what constitutes the enjoyment of fishes?' Zhuangzi rejoined, 'You are not I. How do you know that I do not know what constitutes the enjoyment of fishes?' Huizi said, 'I am not you; and though indeed I do not fully know you, you certainly are not a fish, and (the argument) is complete against your knowing what constitutes the happiness of fishes.' Zhuangzi replied, 'Let us keep to your original question. You said to me, "How do you know what constitutes the enjoyment of fishes?" You knew that I knew it, and yet you put your question to me - well, I know it (from our enjoying ourselves together) over the Hao.'

 

http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/floods-of-autumn#n2828

[Marblehead]

Okay. I'm with you now.

 

I always considered that story to be an example of empathy. Seeing, knowing and feeling the happiness or sadness of other living creatures.

 

 

Not much else I can say. Watson, Legge and Yutang all translate that more or less the same.

[dust]

The men are standing by the river, watching the fish, and (I assume) enjoying the experience. They are doing what comes naturally to them -- being humans, strolling as they please, talking with a friend.

 

The fish are swimming in the river, doing what fish do, and Zhuangzi assumes -- as I have about him -- that the fish are enjoying the experience. They are doing what comes naturally to them -- being fish, flitting around, swimming as they please.

 

that's what I got from it anyway

[Marblehead]

The men are standing by the river, watching the fish, and (I assume) enjoying the experience. They are doing what comes naturally to them -- being humans, strolling as they please, talking with a friend.

 

The fish are swimming in the river, doing what fish do, and Zhuangzi assumes -- as I have about him -- that the fish are enjoying the experience. They are doing what comes naturally to them -- being fish, flitting around, swimming as they please.

 

that's what I got from it anyway

Yeah, sure, that's good.

 

Of course, there are times when we see fish leaping out of the water - they are trying to escape something that wants to eat them.

 

But yes, relating their experience with the experience of fish who have eaten their fill and just want to do whatever inspires them, jumping out of the water sounds neat.

[Taoist Texts]

-- being fish, flitting around, swimming as they please.

 

that's what I got from it anyway

 

that might be the paraphrased story but what is its point if any?

[dust]

Its point is to be a story