Chuang Tzu Chapter 5, Section E

[dust]

What are your thoughts?

 

Not too much of an impressive historical interpretation, please..you'll make the rest of us look bad

[Taoist Texts]

Its point is to be a story

like this

 

[dust]

Like a Chinese version of thismaybe?

 

 

 

Though the morals are far less pithy

[Marblehead]

Do all stories have to have a moral?

[Taoist Texts]

Do all stories have to have a moral?

well actually yes thats what makes them stories and not just rants

[Taoist Texts]

Not too much of an impressive historical interpretation, please..you'll make the rest of us look bad

no no none of that and bsedies its clothes that maketh the man and you guys are dapper i am sure

 

i will just point that in those times there was quite a discourse on 'knowing the joy' of others

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E7%9F%A5%E6%A8%82&page=2

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E9%9D%9E%E6%88%91&page=5#n63221

 

and i posit that this story is a part of that. So the issue is what exactly is 'knowing the joy of others' and why?

[Marblehead]

well actually yes thats what makes them stories and not just rants

Hehehe. I have an opposing opinion but that's okay.

[dust]

no no none of that and bsedies its clothes that maketh the man and you guys are dapper i am sure

 

I'm currently wearing a Spider-Man t-shirt and odd socks (among other things..not just those things). Not sure if dapper is the word to play

 

I hope it's also not money, muscle, power, or high intelligence that maketh the man...

 

Maybe "good intentions maketh the man"? That would work for me I think.

 

 

 

i will just point that in those times there was quite a discourse on 'knowing the joy' of others

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E7%9F%A5%E6%A8%82&page=2

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E9%9D%9E%E6%88%91&page=5#n63221

 

and i posit that this story is a part of that. So the issue is what exactly is 'knowing the joy of others' and why?

 

OK.. so ...if it's about knowing the joy of others.. how does what ZZ says add to the discourse?

[Taoist Texts]

 

I'm currently wearing a Spider-Man t-shirt and odd socks (among other things..not just those things). Not sure if dapper is the word to play

 

I hope it's also not money, muscle, power, or high intelligence that maketh the man...

 

Maybe "good intentions maketh the man"?

 

 

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  • The road to hell is paved with good intentions - Wikipedia ..

  • The road to hell is paved with good intentions is a proverb or aphorism. An alternative form is "hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works".

•  

   

  May be, but wiki has its doubts

   

   

  so yeah..search on knowing joy gives a surprising number of hits. It was a heavily bandied about concept. And why joy of fishes, who cares about that? I am thinking.

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[Marblehead]

Because Chuang Tzu enjoyed fishing. And no, it didn't matter too much whether or not he caught anything.

[dust]

I think looking for a very specific meaning in any particular few lines of the Zhuangzi is often going to be futile. One paragraph often does contain a full parable or offer a concrete idea, but there's also a lot of vague talk designed largely to simply make us look at things differently..

[Taoist Texts]

designed to make us), that ZZ certainly had ong-term designes

 

 

1莊子與惠子遊於濠梁之上。

Zhuang-zi and Hui-zi were strolling on the fish pond dam at Hao river

2莊子曰：「儵魚出遊從容，是魚樂也。」

Zhuang said: the fish came to the surface, our stroll became enjoyable, due to joy from seeing the fish.

3惠子曰：「子非魚，安知魚之樂？」

Hui said: you are not a fish, why would you enjoy looking at fish?

4莊子曰：「子非我，安知我不知魚之樂？」

Zhuang said: you are not I, how you know I should not enjoy seeing fish?

5惠子曰：「我非子，固不知子矣；子固非魚也，子之不知魚之樂全矣。」

Hui said: I am not you, and certainly can not comprehend your reasons; likewise you are not a fish, so you have no reason to enjoy seeing fish.

6莊子曰：「請循其本。

Zhuang said: that’s is the crux of the question, can one man comprehend another or not

7子曰『汝安知魚樂』云者，

You said ‘why should you enjoy seeing fish

8既已知吾知之而問我，我知之濠上也。」

And by that question you have established comprehension between us, now I understood that right here .

[dust]

Your translation definitely gives a more solid conclusion than the traditional interpretations, if we can accept your first premise: that he's talking about enjoying seeing the fish, rather than seeing the fish enjoy themselves.

 

I would say, based just on the Chinese, that I can't accept that premise..

 

是魚樂也

 

Just seeing this, would you ever assume that there was an implied 看 or 视 (or whatever)?

 

安知魚之樂

 

Or again, just seeing this, would you assume that he was talking about "looking at fish"? 鱼之乐 fish's happiness

[Taoist Texts]

Or again, just seeing this, would you assume that he was talking about "looking at fish"? 鱼之乐 fish's happiness

 

may be he was listening to fish

 

魚部:鱳：魚名。出樂浪潘國。从魚樂聲。

 

 

《魚部》

 

[dust]

Could be he was considering writing a book on animal sounds..

 

Li'l Old Zhuang Zhou had a farm, he-hi-he-hi-ho,

And on this farm there were some fish, he-hi-he-hi-ho.

With a flip-flop here and a flip-flop there,

And here a flop and there a flop and everywhere a flip-flop...

[Taoist Texts]

Your translation definitely gives a more solid conclusion than the traditional interpretations, if we can accept your first premise: that he's talking about enjoying seeing the fish, rather than seeing the fish enjoy themselves.

 

I would say, based just on the Chinese, that I can't accept that premise..

 

是魚樂也

 

Just seeing this, would you ever assume that there was an implied 看 or 视 (or whatever)?

 

安知魚之樂

 

Or again, just seeing this, would you assume that he was talking about "looking at fish"? 鱼之乐 fish's happiness

 

You are right Dusty, there is no looking or seeing specified. The reason for that is twofold: first because they talk about fish so there is no question of wheter they see them or not. Of course they do, so that goes without saying.Second: Hui is not interested in merely seeing fish, he is interested why doing so should bring joy to an individual of different species, Zhuang. In reply Zhuang proposes to consider the main question 其本: whether a human can emphatise (know) with another one at all? His proof that a human does that is simple and elegant: The mere fact that you, Hui, have asked me, Zhuang about whether do i feel (know) about the fish, shows that you do empathise with me, otherwise you would not have asked.