Released: Seeking the Master of Mo Pai: Adventures with John Chang by Jim McMillan

[Kasuku]

green tiger - that prob would be more than possible

[h.uriahr]

Signs of dantian cultivation are common in almost every lineage or style of cultivation I've come across.

Vibrating is good.

Heat is good.

Anything except a real valid pain is good.

All these signify the arrival of qi OR the awakening of the dantian.

These are real sensations though. Not a "oh I think I felt it".

[Wells]

I'd agree to h.uriahr's opinion on this.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Formless Tao]

Hahaha, Tongkosong, your TTB name is so true on this post and forum

[dankind]

Wang liping has created his yang spirit etc - john chang hasn't (correct me if wrong)

therefore wang is above chang.

 

Wang's chi field that he can make incredibly dense stretches 500 ft - he also has invisibility skill and neikung projection chi blasts. He can speak to gods and can make it rain when it wants etc.

 

However the mopai system may have higher attainments in that at the higher levels u effectively turn into a ball of light cause each level u double ur power - 1000 volts at level 20, million volts at 30... so

 

And maybe chang has now reached level 30 or higher - can any indonesian students update us on his level.

 

Where do you get this information from? Is it from others via internet forums, or have you actually spoken directly to Wang Liping and he claims to personally be able to make incredibly dense 500ft wide chi fields?

 

Has a Mo Pai student/teacher said anything about voltages corresponding to certain levels?

 

I'm just wondering if this stuff is 'commonly known' from some texts/teaching somewhere... or is everyone on this forum just making things up as they go along?

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

everyone on this forum just making things up as they go along?

Assume this is the case unless they provide references.

[gendao]

In the Asian perspective: the student owes the teacher loyalty and obedience, and the teacher is responsible for making sure the training is correct and the student is training safely. There is no “long term contract” though, and at any time the teacher may end the teaching for any reason if he feels that’s the right thing to do. The teacher points to the mountain and explains some things about it, but the student is responsible to climb it alone, at his own pace, and without much hand-holding.

 

Therefore: John Chang has done nothing wrong. He did a Western thing in following his logical mind rather than his spirit ancestors, and he taught the West, because logically all people are the same, so there should be no problem. When problems did arise, he stopped teaching all Westerners, which was his right. Jim and other Westerners were then responsible for finding their own paths. Shifu Chang actually suffered himself by being removed as head of Mopai, and was in no position in any way to help any Westerner continue in Mopai.

 

In the American perspective: a long-term teacher-student relationship often involves emotional intimacy and becomes something of a father-son relationship.

 

Complicating factors:

1. John Chang does not speak English well, so he could not personally fully explain to Jim why Westerners were being kicked out.

 

2. John Chang, it seems, also has the Asian trait of wanting to avoid personal conflict or criticism.

 

3. Westerners usually don’t perceive ancestor spirits in the way Asians do, and clearly Jim and Shifu Chang view the spirit of Ancestor May in totally opposite ways. In Asia, not only are spirit ancestors your elders and superiors, but they also have vision and wisdom that we do not because they’re in the spiritual realm.

I agree there are some cultural differences here, although not necessarily all the ones you believe.

 

In traditional Taoism, teachers choose their students. Or, one might even say, they allow the Tao to choose their students for them. Now since the relationship is an extremely one-sided "paternalistic" mentorship, the students are essentially honored, lucky and "indebted" to receive whatever they are offered - since they have little to offer back (maybe only to "pay it forward?").

 

And, if a teacher doesn't seek a student out, accepts no payment and makes no promises...then he is under even less "obligation."

 

In the West, life is more compartmentalized as the saying goes - "don't mix business with pleasure." A student might happen to develop a genuine friendship with a mentor, but more often than not, it is basically just a friendly financial transaction that ends whenever the payments do. There are a lot less complicated strings this way and less vetting needed, but these relationships also may not run as deep or intimate (which would risk becoming "unprofessional" liaisons).

 

I think in both cultures though, many students DO often subconsciously seek a father figure in spiritual gurus. Even if that guru does not want or proclaim that role himself. (I "saw" this quite a bit in Kunlun, for instance - even though Max himself was reluctant to be anything much more than an instructor.)

 

ANYHOW...this could get into a much longer discussion on cultural viewpoints and political history... *yawn*

 

 

But, I think what might be more relevant in this particular case may be more specific to the MoPai lineage itself. In The Magus Of Java, Chapter 5 recounts deadly clannish rivalries and genocidal massacres between the Liao & Pu villages involving Sifu Liao Zu Tong, his teacher Pai Lok Nen and Warlord Lim. In this context, loyalist defenders swallowed their anger for years while training for vengeance. John compared this situation to Jews vs Nazis or Kosta's own native Balkans...

In Christianity and Catholicism we are "commanded" not to have "any" kind of association with spirits whatsoever! Got that! Yet John followed spirits for decades and decades!

John even told me that we should "never" believe what they say. What kind of advice is this and then not do it? He said we can never trust them whatsoever and should stay away, yet he continued to betray his pseudo Christian faith over and over...and I am the bad guy in all this? What is wrong with you people? His entire family took me aside on many occasions and scolded me for being a Christian and dabbling in nai gong. None of his Christian family is proud of their father for his association with spirits...and you push me into the bad guy column?

Today, John himself appears somewhat torn between loyalties to his native ancestral neigong.and Western Christian dogma that attempts to both demonize, yet pirate it. And of course, on a larger scale, "Asian vs Western" students have simply replaced the old "Liao's vs Pu's." In fact, who knows...maybe some of these various students could even be reincarnated souls from either family! Here to try to resolve their conflicts again!

 

Because history repeats itself until you solve it! Therefore, the themes of tribal warfare and mistrust seem to resonate in this soul group like an echo chamber.

 

I feel like...there is actually the potential for a LOT of mass healing of entire generations of people here through all this drama, though...if handled in the right skillful, insightful manner...

 

Anyhow, just another drive-by psychoanalysis here... Marinate overnight & tenderize, folks!

Edited May 3, 2013 by vortex

[SantaRosaGuy]

I think it's funny that Jim McMillan says that John Chang is searching for 'nivana' and this is diametrically opposed to Christianity, yet Jim McMillan is seeking Mo Pai, so what's the difference. Isn't that what John is seeking is the 'Mo Pai'?

 

They're essentially the same, Christian, and seeking the Mo Pai. So what is the problem, Jim?

Edited May 3, 2013 by SantaRosaGuy

[voidisyinyang]

Chunyi talking about spirits as energy beings:

 

People might call it evil but it depends if you enjoy it. It's like milk -- people like milk because it gives them calcium. But if you give milk to fish it kills the fish. So the milk is not good nor bad. So what are you going to choose?

 

 

With this energy being formed then I can choose more good things in the world and then suppress the bad things. We don't destroy them because energy can not be created nor destroyed.

 

 

Then this energy, positive energy, good healing energy comes up to give you that kind of sense.

 

 

 

To do the meditation you need to surrender yourself, call upon God's energy, surrender yourself to the Universe, God, sun, moon, give me the energy.

[Truth Seeker]

And of course, on a larger scale, "Asian vs Western" students have simply replaced the old "Liao's vs Pu's." In fact, who knows...maybe some of these various students are reincarnated souls from either family! Here to try to resolve their conflicts again!

WOAH!! I see validity in your take on student/teacher relationships - the models you mention certainly do take place, as do the models I mentioned. A lot depends on the dynamics of each individual case.

 

But PLEASE do not compare old clan warfare to the communication breakdown between Asian and Western Mopai students. That is completely false, and inflammatory to the point of irresponsibility. Those old clans wanted to kill each other. Most, if not every, student in the West (and probably many in the East) would actually like to practice together in harmony, as a worldwide brotherhood. It has always been the actions of a few people that have ruined it for everyone. MASSIVELY DIFFERENT than some recycled widespread clan warfare. Please do not add fuel to an already unfortunate fire.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Truth Seeker

[gendao]

But PLEASE do not compare old clan warfare to the communication breakdown between Asian and Western Mopai students. That is completely false, and inflammatory to the point of irresponsibility. Those old clans wanted to kill each other. The vast majority of West (and probably East) students would actually like to practice together and in harmony. It has always been the actions of a few people that have ruined it for everyone. MASSIVELY DIFFERENT than some recycled widespread clan warfare. Please do not add fuel to an already unfortunate fire.

Well obviously, it compares nothing remotely in severity whatsoever, only in principle as a similar, recurring psychological pattern type.

 

Although if you read that chapter, the clan rivalry simply started over water rights between 2 villages...and then kept spiraling out of control. So, that really didn't need to go that far, had it been handled more skillfully earlier on. Simply outpowering your opponent didn't fix it then...and karmically...it appears that those patterns may still be repeating now (albeit yes, thankfully in muucchhh more minor scope ).

 

My point is just to try to explore and address the underlying issues here, not keep bickering endlessly over all the creamy froth at the top...

Edited May 3, 2013 by vortex

[Truth Seeker]

I don't see it as a similar recurring psychological pattern at all. The clan warfare starting over water rights was a zero-sum struggle over something needed to survive. It triggered "kill or be killed" instincts and escalated from there. The current East-West flare-up is mainly over hurt feelings and differing views on teacher-student responsibilities - more akin to a family squabble. No one wants to physically hurt anyone else, and no one "needs" Mopai in order to continue living. So again, I respectfully say that the stretch you made in making that comparison is just not valid.

 

What I will agree with you on 100% is that it would be great if the underlying issues were explored and addressed. But that is far beyond the abilities of this forum since we're mostly just watching through the window at the real parties involved.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Truth Seeker

[宁]

Dear Jim,

 

as I read in another thread you are having health problems let me first of all wish you to get well soon!

 

While most probably we can all understand and sympathize with your disappointment may I ask you why you seem to be ready to accept that another guy like Kosta is removed from training:

 

 

but when it comes to you this is not acceptable anymore?

 

If you have been working, like most of us, you might have been fired before.

 

This happens for various reasons, where "right" or "wrong" very much depends on which side you belong to, but in any case it is always at the discretion of the person who hires you and not to yourself to decide.

He may have his own reasons, which you may find hard to understand as you are not in his shoes, but once you are fired you simply look for another job and let this one go.

 

Isn't it that simple?

 

Best

 

YM

 

 

good post

 

IMO spirituality is about maturity and integrity also... sure, if I were Jim I'd be damn unhappy and frustrated for a while!

it's part of being a grown-up to gradually come to an agreements with odds that aren't within your expectations.

 

Jim's main problem is he doesn't want to understand Asian culture! There were some good posts on this thread that tried to shed some light on it.

Otherwise he would have known that complaining (for how many years in a row?) is just going to chase away most of the potential teachers out there.

 

Because the hard truth is, authentic teachers like JC aren't as easy to find, not as easy as finding another job anyway. If they were, all this discussion wouldn't have happened in the first place.

[flyinghigh]

...

Edited March 19, 2020 by flyinghigh

[YMWong]

Because the hard truth is, authentic teachers like JC aren't as easy to find, not as easy as finding another job anyway. If they were, all this discussion wouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

Of course, but even with jobs you can have a great one, with lots of career opportunities, where you are treated well and you make good money ... or you have one of those shitty positions in a meaningless company that you hate

 

Life

 

YM

 

 

[宁]

I agree.

That's another problem though, once you meet an authentic teacher, whoever you meet afterwards just doesn't match the standards! Jim speaks of his adventures seeking new teachers, that part of the book I liked!

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Because the hard truth is, authentic teachers like JC aren't as easy to find, not as easy as finding another job anyway. If they were, all this discussion wouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

 

There are 10 beings at or above JC's level alive on earth, out of nearly 7 billion people.

[YMWong]

There are 10 beings at or above JC's level alive on earth, out of nearly 7 billion people.

 

MPG, somebody who is in kindergarten does not need a PHD from Harvard as a master - any primary school teacher can do

 

The problem is that people have too high expectations and, very often, think so high of themselves that cannot accept anything less then a Nobel Laureate for mentor

 

YM

[Thunder_Gooch]

MPG, somebody who is in kindergarten does not need a PHD from Harvard as a master - any primary school teacher can do The problem is that people have too high expectations and, very often, think so high of themselves that cannot accept anything less then a Nobel Laureate for mentor YM

 

 

That's one way of looking at it.

 

I am not saying there are not tons of totally dedicated and focused and serious teachers, most probably beyond a level I could ever dream of reaching.

 

What I am saying is their practices themselves (for my purposes, and goals) are virtually worthless garbage, that could never take me where I want to go.

 

Why waste my time with a system that can't offer what I am seeking?

 

Is there any valid reason to do so?

 

I can't think of any.

Edited May 3, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[YMWong]

I am not saying there are not tons of totally dedicated and focused and serious teachers, most probably beyond a level I could ever dream of reaching.

 

What I am saying is their practices themselves are virtually worthless garbage, that could never take me where I want to go.

 

I am sorry but I don't get your point: if those people you mention are "beyond a level you could ever dream of reaching" why would their practice be garbage?

 

YM

[Thunder_Gooch]

Professional lumberjacks will be beyond a level I could ever dream of reaching in their system of cutting trees, doesn't mean I am interested in learning their art.

 

 

I am sorry but I don't get your point: if those people you mention are "beyond a level you could ever dream of reaching" why would their practice be garbage? YM

[YMWong]

Professional lumberjacks will be beyond a level I could ever dream of reaching in their system of cutting trees, doesn't mean I am interested in learning their art.

 

If that was the matter in discussion then I guess your point of there being "10 beings at or above JC's level alive on earth, out of nearly 7 billion people" should change more to something in the range of hundreds of thousands, no?

 

YM

 

[Thunder_Gooch]

No it shouldn't, there are 10 beings at or above his level alive on earth. That's it.

 

If there are thousands who possess knowledge of systems like his that can do the same thing, but just haven't achieved it yet, that I don't know.

 

There may be thousands of them, I am unsure.

 

What I do know is the vast majority of all other teachers are just Lumber Jacks to me.

 

 

If that was the matter in discussion then I guess your point of there being "10 beings at or above JC's level alive on earth, out of nearly 7 billion people" should change more to something in the range of hundreds of thousands, no? YM

[Thunder_Gooch]

[Ish]

There are 10 beings at or above JC's level alive on earth, out of nearly 7 billion people.

 

Don't know why you keep stating this as fact. Be honest you have no idea.