Pole standing challenge

[Birch]

Is one allowed to stand horizontally?

It's a real question.

[Cameron]

Best wishes in your challenge.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Cameron

[Mandrake]

[Green Tiger]

This is not entirely true. We've had advanced cultivators here in the past who had plenty of connections with big guns in china tell us the benefits of standing for extended periods. BK Frantzis did ZZ for 5-6 hours per day in his youth.

San Ti isn't exactly the same thing as zhan zhuang, and there are instructors in xingyi that don't necessarily agree with your quote. It seems taken out of context since it doesn't say what stance those martial artists used who damaged themselves; If you stand for long hours you don't do it in a very low stance that may strain the knees.

 

Then, you don't stand for extended periods without allowing your body ample time to prepare for it in advance, and this is perhaps the most important point.

 

 

Mandrake

 

 

In my experience, standing helps open up the knee joints at 30-60 minutes. I rarely exceed that time though. This challenge should be a good experiment to see what might change after two, four, or six hours. Maybe even 14!

 

Also, in my experience, knee problems associated with Tai chi practitioners usually have more to do with improper transitions within the forms (i.e., when shifting from a back-weighted stance to a front-weighted stance). If the hips are tight, the rear knee will often 'catch,' or not shift properly.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Green Tiger

[baiqi]

It's been a long time I have been waiting for this!

 

Ladies and gentlemen, let me dintroduce you to the first international

 

Zhan Zhuang World Cup :ph34r:

 

Rules:

 

- any posture, but no moving. (Holding the pole is the usual standard, it depends on the candidate, and if the others agree.)

- only micromovements, led by qi are allowed, other movements disqualify the candidate.

- the structure must be absolutely aligned (our referees can check this at all times), qi must circulate freely

- no doping allowed.

 

The one who stands the longest/or first obtain illumination (this will be checked by our spiritual experts) wins.

 

Incredible show, much better than the superbowl!!!

[Gerard]

Very funny.

 

Let's make it the official presentation:

 

 

2011 Zhan Zhuang World Cup (December 10-17, The Tao Bums & participants' local parks, beaches, mountains and backyards).

 

[Cameron]

Much respect to anyone who can 'embrace the tree' for an hour. Anyone who is able to do it for longer is a qigong mutant!

 

ps. several advanced qigong teachers I have learned standing meditation from do seem to say to build up the time held standing very gradually. But it sounds like ya'll are already seasoned standing vets!

[Ish]

Very funny.

 

Let's make it the official presentation:

 

 

2011 Zhan Zhuang World Cup (December 10-17, The Tao Bums & participants' local parks, beaches, mountains and backyards).

 

 

Wang Shu Jin was a beast, I like his form very laid back

[Gerard]

Also, in my experience, knee problems associated with Tai chi practitioners usually have more to do with improper transitions within the forms (i.e., when shifting from a back-weighted stance to a front-weighted stance). If the hips are tight, the rear knee will often 'catch,' or not shift properly.

 

Oops, I missed your post and you are right, this is the most common problem. Here're some vids that should fix that (including stretches):

 

 

 

Hip joint stretches, which also help to get into full-lotus (for those interested in FL meditation)

 

 

 

Kwa warm-up

 

 

http://www.baguaquanlessons.com/kwahip-joints33007.html

 

 

Kwa and dang practice with a tree

 

 

 

Very useful stuff, IMO.

[Green Tiger]

Okay . . . totally psyched about the standing marathon this weekend!

 

My plan: Sunday - wake up at about 8am

practice seated 8 pieces of brocade a la Yang Jwing Ming (30min)

practice an hour of yoga

begin standing - time is called when I

a) fall out of the stance

fall asleep

 

I really hope I fall asleep first

 

I was considering playing music while standing, but should that be prohibited from the challenge? I can't help but wonder: Could I outlast the battery on my iPod?

 

I was thinking I'd practice standing with arms at sides to begin with, and then gradually lift the arms (using chi/yi ) until I'm 'hugging the tree.' That's how I usually practice. Then, when I feel like I'm about 80% finished standing, I gradually lower the arms back down.

 

Does that all sound agreeable?

[Gerard]

Yes, changing arm placement is fine, we don't want to turn this into a wushu feat, but no external devices

allowed since this is a mind challenge, to see how much one is willing to surrender the ego.

 

Good luck and have fun

[lifeforce]

This is not entirely true. We've had advanced cultivators here in the past who had plenty of connections with big guns in china tell us the benefits of standing for extended periods. BK Frantzis did ZZ for 5-6 hours per day in his youth.

San Ti isn't exactly the same thing as zhan zhuang, and there are instructors in xingyi that don't necessarily agree with your quote. It seems taken out of context since it doesn't say what stance those martial artists used who damaged themselves; If you stand for long hours you don't do it in a very low stance that may strain the knees.

 

Then, you don't stand for extended periods without allowing your body ample time to prepare for it in advance, and this is perhaps the most important point.

 

 

Mandrake

 

Yeah you have a point here. I used to stand daily for 30 mins in wuji and 'holding the balloon' in the days before I practiced san ti.

It's a practice that I lost touch with, and to be honest, I could do with getting back into it again.

So, I'm going to set myself a challenge. To start standing regularly again.

Starting with wuji, building it up over the weeks to the 20 minute mark. Then adding 'holding the balloon', and building that up to a decent time.

Now where did I put that 'The Way Of Energy' book ?

[Gerard]

.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Gerard

[Gerard]

You don't need the book

 

I am going to step aside with the practice a bit: 80 min embracing the tree is good enough for me. Standing like that for hours is insane since I already practice BGZ which is more than enough already.

 

However I have to say that ZZ has really pointed out several blockages I have in my system, namely kidney yang deficiency (not serious though but I have started a herbal treatment yesterday), and four Qi blockages in the GB and urinary bladder meridians.

 

I will retake this challenge later on since my legs are "fried."

 

Good luck to everyone involved in the challenge.

 

[spiraltao]

[Green Tiger]

Well, I've made a few attempts since this thread began. To be sure, the ego never left. In fact, at least once I felt like the monkey mind chatter got worse after about 90 mins. 120 mins+/- about fifteen was the longest I could stand in a single session. I initially thought that I would be able to go a lot longer, but this was based on faulty reasoning.

 

My logic when something like this: I usually only run about 2-3 miles a couple times a week, but I can easily run 7-10 miles if I want to SOOOOO . . . since usually stand 30-60 minutes a few times a week then I should be able to stand for 170-240 minutes if I really wanted to, right? Well, not without my body screaming in revolt.

 

The first place where I started to feel some serious fatigue was in my core. That was interesting, since the minor fatigue usually effects my legs and back more than my core. In fact, the longer I stood, the more it felt like I was getting an abdominal workout rather than a leg workout.

 

The fatigue started in the front/belly and then later included the low back. The last time I tried, I noticed my hip structure seems to be changing. There was a lot of shifting and burning in the hips, especially in my low back near the mingmen.

 

The last attempt was yesterday and I'm tempted to try again next week, but I'm also a bit apprehensive. I feel like I'm on to something with the way my core and hips reacted to the longer standing, but this morning when I was doing my seated meditations I felt more tense than usual. The seated posture was probably more grounded than usual too, but my mind just wasn't settling like it usually does.

 

I'm thinking I'll do mostly seated medidations for the rest of the week and see how they go, then try another long standing. It's probably still premature, but I feel like the long standing meditations are really good for initiating the dissolving process and the seated meditations supplement that by going deeper into a blockage.

 

We'll see . . .

[Rishi Das]

This is a great thread, I really appreciate all the contributions.

 

The past couple weeks I have taken up zhan zhuang and it is really amazing how much it allows one to feel themselves. While i'm just getting into the practice I have already begun to feel myself on a much deeper level; I have noticed this translates to an increase in feeling throughout the day which keeps me feeling very grounded.

 

As of now after about an hour of spontaneous qigong, I move into standing wuji, after about 30 minutes of that I go for another 30 minutes in "embrace the tree" pose, finally finishing up with about an hour of wuji hundun qigong and some self tui'na massage.

 

While I have been practicing natural flow as well as wuji qigong for a couple months now, I have found that the introduction of ZZ really helps my cultivation of mind/body altogether. As a newbie, I have realized that for me, seated meditation is still a bit of an advanced practice; zhan zhuang has become an excellent replacement for seated meditation, as it allows me to get into my body in a way I have never really experienced.

 

As of now I am not sure that i'm prepared to involve myself in a ZZ challenge; that being said I look forward to increasing my time in these stances so that sometime in the future I can challenge myself to some long standing sessions.

[Gerard]

In fact, the longer I stood, the more it felt like I was getting an abdominal workout rather than a leg workout.

 

 

Relax into the lower abdomen. To achieve this focus your breathing deep into that area and let go of it, as if you were breathing into a depthless well.

 

More info here:

 

http://wujifaliangong.blogspot.com/2011/10/wujifa-zhan-zhuang-relaxing-belly.html

 

 

There was a lot of shifting and burning in the hips, especially in my low back near the mingmen.

 

Yes, I also experience that. The reason for that is called: modern society and the way we seat on chairs and stand up after being seated down, and also while seated facing the computer. Our lower backs are overworked, hence blocked mingmen area.

 

Watch this:

 

 

 

 

The fatigue started in the front/belly and then later included the low back. The last time I tried, I noticed my hip structure seems to be changing.

 

 

Yes it does slowly, ZZ dissolves all the accumulated garbage in this (and others) lifetime(s).

 

Keep going.

 

I feel like the long standing meditations are really good for initiating the dissolving process and the seated meditations supplement that by going deeper into a blockage.

 

That's the way it works.

 

As of now I am not sure that i'm prepared to involve myself in a ZZ challenge; that being said I look forward to increasing my time in these stances so that sometime in the future I can challenge myself to some long standing sessions.

 

Yes, it is a very slow and disciplined process. The greater the effort, the greater the results.

 

 

...................

 

Full moon is approaching so from tomorrow until 10/01/12 (when it peaks at 99% this cycle) I will change the traditional approach to ZZ to a moving one, but what I am going to do is blend Buddhist Vipassana walking meditation with the ZZ stance of embracing the tree. I will start early tomorrow morning (4am) and walk with a extremely slow tempo (+/- 15s per step: heel up-rising-moving-touching (toes make contact first with ground)-putting (heel last)). The goal is to walk as long as I can aiming at 2 hours (more if I can).

 

Location: local park surrounded by dense vegetation.

 

Will report back.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Gerard

[Gerard]

[Cameron]

Cool

 

I like a description I heard from Ken Cohen, "Center everywere, circumfrence nowhere."

[johndoe2012]

I did a year of standing, really liked it, although my knees started to hurt in the end. I think it had to do with misalignments in the hips / pelvis / kwa and lower back issues.

 

Did a pelvic clock feldenkrais lesson recently

 

http://kinesophics.ca/diyatm/atmrecordings/pelvic_clock

 

that improved the position of the pelvis and standing felt freaking great.

 

Standing is probably the best free method out there.

[Edward M]

Gerard, i was at that seminar with master He in the last video you posted

 

Peace

[mYTHmAKER]

I did a year of standing, really liked it, although my knees started to hurt in the end. I think it had to do with misalignments in the hips / pelvis / kwa and lower back issues.

 

Did a pelvic clock feldenkrais lesson recently

 

http://kinesophics.c...gs/pelvic_clock

 

that improved the position of the pelvis and standing felt freaking great.

 

Standing is probably the best free method out there.

 

That is why one needs a teacher to check for proper alignment.

Learning from books - DVD's is not the way to go unless one has very good understanding of what is going on in their body.

For instance if a head is turned slightly to the right as a normal position it will feel straight on. When you correct

your head to center it will feel as though it is turned to the left and not centered.

Knees slightly out of alignment - torso slightly twisted - chin up or down too much - shoulders hiked -

legs not the proper distance apart. A few of the many possibilities that can cause problems.

 

A man goes to a tailor to get a suit. He tries on the suit. Tells the tailor a sleeve is too long- the tailor tells him to hike up his shoulder and the sleeve is a perfect length. He tells the tailor the pant leg is too short - tailor tells him to lean to one side and keep his knee bent. He tells the tailor the jacket isn't level on the left side the tailor tells him to bend ant twist a bit.

So the man is walking down the street as best he can and two women see him. The first one says look at that poor crippled man. The second says yes but his suit fits so well. He must have a wonderful tailor.

 

So it is important to find a good teacher