ILLUSION

[ATMA]

Is all illusion ?

[suninmyeyes]

Whose illusion?

[Encephalon]

It depends on what "is" is.

[konchog uma]

its 99% emptiness generating the illusion of solidity.

 

its actually one thing experiencing itself subjectively as us and the web of life.

 

there is very little about reality that isn't illusory, even outright illusion, in some major way.

 

just don't get lost in the reality of nonreality and forsake your illusory responsibilities.

 

[Mokona]

How do you define illusion, and what are you referring to?

 

I can feel my toes just fine.

[Ish]

Depending on your sense perception all things are subject to change. So you can't say something is concrete reality as it depends on the perceiver.

In this way i suppose all phenomena are illusions .

[Marblehead]

My reality is real and my back hurts from working too hard today.

[zanshin]

I am feeling pretty unreal today, might not even show up tomorrow.

[Birch]

It doesn't matter, except when it does.

 

I wouldn't say it's an illusion either, that kind of implies there's something else that isn't, I think. It's just reality, it's a weird thing that leaves itself open to definitions. If you're happy with yours, isn't that all that you need? No need to come over here and tell me what mine ought to be. Unless my happiness is bothering yours?

[Alethaeia]

its 99% emptiness generating the illusion of solidity.

 

its actually one thing experiencing itself subjectively as us and the web of life.

 

there is very little about reality that isn't illusory, even outright illusion, in some major way.

 

just don't get lost in the reality of nonreality and forsake your illusory responsibilities.

 

XD

YES

+1

 

indeed, existence is a dream

we are all creating the universe, together, whether or not we are aware of it;

e.g. we are unconsciously creating on many levels and consciously creating on few, and that ratio is currently changing for the 'better'

(at least this is how it appears from our silly human point of view, inside time and karma and all that good stuff)

: )

Edited December 10, 2011 by Alethaeia

[C T]

"If one conceives of 'self' then one must also conceive of 'other'. Attachment and aversion arise as a result of these two conceptions ~ of self and other. As a result of relationship accompanied by feelings of attachment and aversion, all faults are generated. It should be understood that the root of all these faults lie in this view: that the transitory aggregate called 'I' and 'mine' has an inherent existence."

(commentary on the Garland of Mahamudra Practices by Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen Rinpoche)

 

 

 

 

Being aware of the transient nature of existence goes some distance in developing Equanimity.

[Birch]

"If one conceives of 'self' then one must also conceive of 'other'. Attachment and aversion arise as a result of these two conceptions ~ of self and other. As a result of relationship accompanied by feelings of attachment and aversion, all faults are generated. It should be understood that the root of all these faults lie in this view: that the transitory aggregate called 'I' and 'mine' has an inherent existence."

(commentary on the Garland of Mahamudra Practices by Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen Rinpoche)

 

 

 

 

Being aware of the transient nature of existence goes some distance in developing Equanimity.

One "must"?

 

I'd venture from experience that it ain't so "either/or". For example it's entirely possible for someone to have self-awareness while having none whatsoever of anyone else. From experience, on the receiving end of someone who doesn't realise I exist :-)

 

Edit: just remembered (according to a couple of separate sources) that they'd indicated to me via their respective ways of understanding that prior to 12 y.o. I didn't "exist" (from what perspective remains elusive but the sources are in agreement- as far as I know they don't talk to each other).

 

Pretty weird stuff.

Edited December 10, 2011 by -K-

[C T]

One "must"?

 

I'd venture from experience that it ain't so "either/or". For example it's entirely possible for someone to have self-awareness while having none whatsoever of anyone else. From experience, on the receiving end of someone who doesn't realise I exist :-)

 

Edit: just remembered (according to a couple of separate sources) that they'd indicated to me via their respective ways of understanding that prior to 12 y.o. I didn't "exist" (from what perspective remains elusive but the sources are in agreement- as far as I know they don't talk to each other).

 

Pretty weird stuff.

"Psychologists talk about people who are co-dependent because they dont have a sense of self. What psychologists mean when they say a person has no sense of self is very different from what the Buddha meant by no-self or selflessness. People with psychological imbalances actually have a very strong sense of self in the Buddhist sense, although they may not in the psychological sense of the word. Psychologically, they dont see themselves as efficacious individuals in the world, but they have a very strong sense of 'I' : as in, 'I am worthless, etc.' When they are criticized, they dont like it. They get into co-dependent relationships to please or to protect this 'I'. When they fall into self-loathing, their sense of an inherently existent self is very strong. Thus they still have self-grasping even though they may lack a psychologically healthy sense of self. Buddhism recognizes two kinds of sense of self. There's one sense of self that is healthy and necessary to be efficacious on the path. The object of this sense of self is the conventionally existent 'I'. The other sense of self grasps at an inherently existing self that never has and never will exist. Within Buddhism, when we talk about realizing Emptiness, we're negating the false self, this self that we cling to as inherently existing." (Lama Thubten Chodron)

 

"If one has a mistaken view of an emptiness, equating it with a vacuity which is nothingness, this is not the ascertainment of an emptiness. Or, even if one has developed a proper understanding of an emptiness as merely a lack of inherent existence, still, when the vacuity which is a lack of inherent existence appears, one may subsequently lose sight of the original understanding. This vacuity then becomes a mere nothingness with the original understanding of the negation of inherent existence being lost completely. Therefore, this is not the ascertainment of an emptiness either. Also, even if the meaning of an emptiness has been successfully ascertained, but the thought, 'This is an emptiness' appears, then one is apprehending the existence of an emptiness which is positively objective. Therefore, that consciousness then becomes a conventional, validated cognizer and not the ascertainment of an emptiness. The Condensed Perfection of Wisdom Sutra says, 'Even if a Bodhisattva realizes, "These aggregates are empty", he or she is acting on signs of conventionalities and does not possess ultimate non-discriminating insight of non-production.

 

Furthermore, 'an emptiness' is a negative [an absence] which has to be ascertained through the mere elimination of the object of negation, which is, inherent existence itself. Negatives are of two types: affirming negatives in which some other positive phenomenon is implied in place of the object of negation, and non-affirming negatives in which no other positive phenomenon is implied in place of the object of negation. An emptiness is an instance of the latter; therefore, a consciousness cognizing an emptiness necessarily ascertains the mere negative or absence of the object of negation. What appears to the mind is a clear vacuity accompanied by the mere thought, 'These concrete things as they now appear to our minds dont exist at all'. The mere lack of inherent existence or mere truthlessness which is the referent object of this consciousness is an emptiness; therefore, such a mind ascertains an emptiness". (HH the Dalai Lama)

 

 

"In general, in many of the tantras of the new translation schools, there are no explicit or elaborate references to meditation on emptiness during the main practice, but rather to meditative states of great bliss. Although that is the case, still we do find emphasis on the importance of understanding emptiness prior to engaging in the practices of Highest Yoga Tantra, and the realization of emptiness is taken to be a prerequisite or indispensable factor for the successful realization of the stages of Highest Yoga Tantra. Otherwise, there can be no meditation on great bliss without the correct understanding of emptiness.

 

As far as meditation on emptiness is concerned, there are two approaches: one is meditation that employs discernment and analysis, the other is meditation on the basis of settling, without engaging in the analytical process. Analytical meditation may support the great bliss of the Highest Yoga Tantra system, but in general, in the HYT of the new translation schools, meditation on emptiness consists solely of settling meditation. It is not explained as analytical meditation, because to engage in analytical meditation inhibits the arising of great bliss and prevents the attainment of subtler states of mind. Since it has this effect, analytical meditation is not practiced in this context". (HH the Dalai Lama)

 

 

In the Eight Verses of Mind Training, it is said that the primary objective of recognizing the illusion-like nature of reality is to assist the practitioner to release conditioned clinging to a self, or, to free up mind-space so that should one's life were to end suddenly, one will not be stuck in heavy, confusing visions which forces the ethereal consciousness to then seek a return to familiar surroundings, of which the resultant outcome would be an obvious return to earthly birth, which not necessarily means of the human form.

 

 

 

Weird indeed.

Edited December 10, 2011 by C T

[Marblehead]

 

Being aware of the transient nature of existence goes some distance in developing Equanimity.

 

I agree with this. But this is much different than saying reality does not exist.

 

Each and every moment is a different reality.

 

We are born and then we die. What matters are the moments between the two events.

[Birch]

That's a lot of definitions Mr Cow!

 

What I draw from all these philosophies is that there are lots of them that attempt to describe people things and the world. And in many cases they work in acheiving this, to various degrees of success for all. It doesn't mean for a second that I'll adopt any of them as being the ultimate way things are. It's more of a "working model" kind of thing.

You used very psychological terms to describe an unfortunate situation, that's a working model itself. The two ways it was described to me were mathematically and through intuition, neither of which would seem to line up with each other but they both referred to the same people and events and periods of time.

 

So now we have a few working models to play with. If we eliminate those that are "subjective constructs" (as in some other person made them up based on some view and related personal experience) it looks like we have 1 left that is not (although that's open to argument I guess), the mathematical one. So now the two "subjective" views can be seen as interpretations of the one "objective" model.

 

 

Just for the record. I'm not codependent:-)

 

Edit: The existance of which is also hotly disagreed about. Interesting! http://books.google.ca/books?id=2qUUEf9PvPYC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=codependency+does+not+exist&source=bl&ots=V-il5bRrik&sig=oQDJaqSqC8Q8Sn0Tjz6LUFll7tg&hl=fr&ei=h3bjTtK_K-ry0gGpyZ3OBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=codependency%20does%20not%20exist&f=false

Edited December 10, 2011 by -K-

[konchog uma]

I agree with this. But this is much different than saying reality does not exist.

 

Each and every moment is a different reality.

 

We are born and then we die. What matters are the moments between the two events.

 

saying that reality is an illusion isn't saying that it doesn't exist. It is saying that it is like a dream or a hologram or, well, an illusion. it exists, just not in the way that it appears to exist.

[Marblehead]

saying that reality is an illusion isn't saying that it doesn't exist. It is saying that it is like a dream or a hologram or, well, an illusion. it exists, just not in the way that it appears to exist.

 

Yeah, I follow your thinking. But the only way I can relate with 'what is' is through my senses. That requires me to view things as my senses sense them.

 

Now, granted, we all have our own little illusions and delusions. I have mine. But they serve me well so there is no conflict there.

 

Then too, we each have our own reality so who is to say?

[konchog uma]

Yeah, I follow your thinking. But the only way I can relate with 'what is' is through my senses. That requires me to view things as my senses sense them.

 

Now, granted, we all have our own little illusions and delusions. I have mine. But they serve me well so there is no conflict there.

 

Then too, we each have our own reality so who is to say?

 

i think we all view things as our senses dictate. But what gives you confidence that your senses are not deceived by illusion? As we learn about the world we live in via the sciences we see a lot of the illusory nature of reality. Look at atoms for example! My ass should pass right through this chair but it doesnt! Not because either are solid, but because of magnetic and electromagnetic force!

 

Well i have to go eat so i can get to the theater on time so i'll leave it at that.

 

I can never prove to you anything about your experience with words on an internet forum. Search deeply the issue for yourself, and you will see evidence of the illusion of reality on many levels!! This is not what it looks like

[strawdog65]

As Chuang Tzu so aptly wrote in his story of a butterfly Dream:

 

I dreamed I was a Butterfly and upon awakening I was unsure if I were in fact

a Man who dreamed he was a Butterfly, or a Butterfly who had dreamed he was a Man.

 

Reality is a term that indicates only what the observer/experiencer witnesses.

change the perception of what is observed/experienced and you change the Reality.

 

 

Back to sleep now....I think I'll fly over to that flower....

[Alethaeia]

mmmm what a yummy thread

 

CT i love your posts, thank you

 

one thing's for sure...

whatever reality 'is' certainly is not always comfortable (for me) so it's about acceptance and working with what i've got

we all walk the path at our own pace, and it's beautiful when we can help others to see more clearly, which is why i love this website : )

~

[Marblehead]

i think we all view things as our senses dictate. But what gives you confidence that your senses are not deceived by illusion? As we learn about the world we live in via the sciences we see a lot of the illusory nature of reality. Look at atoms for example! My ass should pass right through this chair but it doesnt! Not because either are solid, but because of magnetic and electromagnetic force!

 

Ah! Have you forgotten that I am an old man? When I was young gaining my life experiences there was no talk about the empty space in atoms. There wasn't any talk about those belief systems that told us that all was illusion. Everything was real during my youth. And we know that it is during our youth that our deepest beliefs are formed. I couldn't even accept the religion that was taught to me and that is why I am an Atheist today. At that time there were no alternatives.

 

So yes, my experiences, based on "my" senses, have proven to me that how I believe about reality, illusions and delusions are well-founded and they work in 'real life' every time. 100%!!! Can't get better than that!

[Marblehead]

As Chuang Tzu so aptly wrote in his story of a butterfly Dream:

 

I dreamed I was a Butterfly and upon awakening I was unsure if I were in fact

a Man who dreamed he was a Butterfly, or a Butterfly who had dreamed he was a Man.

 

Reality is a term that indicates only what the observer/experiencer witnesses.

change the perception of what is observed/experienced and you change the Reality.

 

Back to sleep now....I think I'll fly over to that flower....

 

What I bolded is exactly true for the observer, IMO. However, it may not be true regarding the thing being observed if the reflection is distorted by the observer's mind.

 

Ah!, the butterfly. One of my favorite people! I have been a butterfly. Really! In Korea a man who constantly chases after different pretty women is known as a butterfly.

 

Yeah, dreams are funny. And some people dream while awake! That oftentimes creates problems.