What reincarnates?

[mewtwo]

In zen there is no self but if the body is just made up of the five elements what reincarnates?

[C T]

This question did not materialize from nothing. There is a motive. This motive was propelled by some past energetic imprint. What reincarnates is this specific energetic force which propels the mind to seek incessantly, usually for meanings and familiarities. When these forces are pacified, not thru knowledge, not thru analytical thought, but through habitual release of self-clinging, then the causes for the migrating energies are cut at the root, resulting in the cessation of clinging to a gross existence. The form still exists, but no longer will there be attachment to it. Maintaining a constant attitude of non-attachment is the key to removing the belief that one is a victim of karmic forces, which then results in the removal of the sense that there is an 'i' which is subject to birth and death.

[Patrick Brown]

[Mandrake]

In zen there is no self but if the body is just made up of the five elements what reincarnates?

 

 

I believe that non-self is a widely misunderstood concept. I don't wish to spark that debate again, just to mention that the translation of the original words an-atman to non-self is, if not incorrect, then misleading. Shakyamuni in several suttas (such as the Ananda sutta, Anattalakkhana sutta, Mahaparinirvana sutra and the tathatagarhba sutras, to name a few) argues against the view of there being a self, and also against the view of there not being a self.

 

The way I look at it is not something that reincarnates (certainly not transmigrates), but more like a process that continues, as an example: A theater that non-stop shows plays; as soon as one play ends, another one starts at the stage, there are endless of decorations, actors, clothes, props, but not all can fit in at the same time so they change and are there to shape the change, participating in the process.

So there is no "what" that reincarnates, instead there are patterns and networks, part of which are visible each moment, propelled by different dynamics to become active.

 

Also, a being consists not only of the five elements but also consciousness according to Zen.

 

 

Mandrake

[Thunder_Gooch]

I believe that we are not our bodies, we are an energetic phenomenon. Our consciousness is like a candle flame and the candle is our physical form. I believe that after death the base awareness whatever it is that is experiencing this reality will continue on, without it's previous life's memories or identity or ego, in some new form eventually.

[Birch]

I liked Mandake's idea best. It's also the very "stuff" you change and reroute with gongs.

[Informer]

In zen there is no self but if the body is just made up of the five elements what reincarnates?

 

Good point, nothing reincarnates, otherwise whatever did would be considered the self.

[Informer]

Reincarnation is a belief that one is far better without, imo.

[konchog uma]

According to Tibetan mysticism it is the formless soul.

 

in life it acts as a "will to live" and a catalyst for action (hence karma of past lives) but after death the tibetans, who have a science of these things born of direct experience, observe that the aggregate self passes through bardos as it is stripped of elements of self according to their density. The more dense elements go first, and finally the spirit and mind are stripped and the formless soul, one with the all, rests in oblivion until gradually it is ready to inhabit a body again, at which time it does so, merging with the physical embryo of whatever-it-is

 

that explanation is paraphrased from the Tibetan Book of the Dead and from Alexandra David-Neel's Magic and Mystery in Tibet, neither of which i have in front of me right now. So perhaps someone could add or clarify, since that was a very short explanation.

 

I tend to accept it because of the experience of their lamas and tulkus, passing consciously through death and bearing proof as a child on the other side.

[Informer]

According to Tibetan mysticism it is the formless soul.

 

in life it acts as a "will to live" and a catalyst for action (hence karma of past lives) but after death the tibetans, who have a science of these things born of direct experience, observe that the aggregate self passes through bardos as it is stripped of elements of self according to their density. The more dense elements go first, and finally the spirit and mind are stripped and the formless soul, one with the all, rests in oblivion until gradually it is ready to inhabit a body again, at which time it does so, merging with the physical embryo of whatever-it-is

 

that explanation is paraphrased from the Tibetan Book of the Dead and from Alexandra David-Neel's Magic and Mystery in Tibet, neither of which i have in front of me right now. So perhaps someone could add or clarify, since that was a very short explanation.

 

I tend to accept it because of the experience of their lamas and tulkus, passing consciously through death and bearing proof as a child on the other side.

 

So what is preventing that from being the self then?

[Shen Chi Jing]

From what I understand the Skandhas don't reincarnate, because they disintegrate after death like the physical body, however that when the Storehouse-Consciousness (Alaya-Vijnana) returns to a new womb, a new personality/Skandhas is built up based on the karmic 'values' or impressions (whether negative, neutral, or positive) that are carried over from lifetime to lifetime in the Alaya-Vijnana.

 

The above might not be the best explanation, but look up the terms: Sugatagarbha, Tathagatagarbha, Alaya-Vijnana, and Cittatva.

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Cittatva%22+%22Tathagatagarbha%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&q=%22Cittatva%22+%22Alaya+Vijnana%22&mvs=0&oq=%22Cittatva%22+%22Alaya+Vijnana%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=17346l25984l0l26521l21l18l0l0l0l0l0l0ll12l0&fp=5903c4aa8dac04c5&biw=480&bih=268

Edited December 10, 2011 by Shen Chi Jing

[Informer]

Every explanation is just explaining what self could be, lol. O wait, you mean there's not a self but there is?

 

[xabir2005]

In zen there is no self but if the body is just made up of the five elements what reincarnates?

 

---------------------------

QUOTE(Darkknight @ Jan 8 2007, 06:17 AM)

Q. So there is no self (Atman). so what exactly is it that is reborn, and how does what is reborn pass from one body to another?

Thanks in advance for any answers received. bow.gif

 

-----------------------------

 

The question is wrongly put and the Buddha's reponse when asked such a question was to reject it as an improper question. Having rejected the question he would then inform the questioner of what he ought to have asked: "With what as condition is there birth?"

 

The reason that it is an improper question is that rebirth is taught as the continuation of a process, and not as the passing on of any sort of entity. For a more complete exposition of the subject see Mahasi Sayadaw's Discourse on Paticcasamuppada.

 

Best wishes,

Dhammanando Bhikkhu

 

 

.........

 

 

In the //Milindapanha// the King asks Nagasena:

 

"What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"

 

"A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."

 

"But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical

combination as this present one?"

 

"No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces

kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and

through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be

born."

[Patrick Brown]

From what I understand the Skandhas don't reincarnate, because they disintegrate after death like the physical body, however that when the Storehouse-Consciousness (Alaya-Vijnana) returns to a new womb, a new personality/Skandhas is built up based on the karmic 'values' or impressions (whether negative, neutral, or positive) that are carried over from lifetime to lifetime in the Alaya-Vijnana.

 

The above might not be the best explanation, but look up the terms: Sugatagarbha, Tathagatagarbha, Alaya-Vijnana, and Cittatva.

 

http://www.google.co...biw=480&bih=268

 

That's what I said!

 

It's not really important.

[doc benway]

In zen there is no self but if the body is just made up of the five elements what reincarnates?

Reincarnation is a concept created by thought.

Self is a concept created by thought.

Non-self is a concept created by thought.

The five elements are a concept create by thought.

 

Zen invites us to transcend concepts created by thought.

[Everything]

Good point, nothing reincarnates, otherwise whatever did would be considered the self.

If you say that nothing reincarnates, do you imply with that that the soul is nothing, or "non-existant"?

 

So do you believe that anything that is non-physical is essentially not part of existance? Do you believe that information is non-existance? Do you believe that information is physical?

 

Its just food for thought, so that you can relax, as your mind is too busy to eat his meal.

[Patrick Brown]

If you say that nothing reincarnates, do you imply with that that the soul is nothing, or "non-existant"?

 

So do you believe that anything that is non-physical is essentially not part of existance? Do you believe that information is non-existance? Do you believe that information is physical?

 

Its just food for thought, so that you can relax, as your mind is too busy to eat his meal.

 

 

Nice one!

[konchog uma]

So what is preventing that from being the self then?

 

well its not so much that it is or isn't prevented. Its an aspect of self. During the life of a person, the formless soul acts as a spark of inspiration to action, a magnet for events to happen to one, or for people to be drawn to one, and above all else, the Will To Live. So while a person is alive, it is considered very much a part of the self.

 

I think the main distinction to make is that it is not the self that people naturally identify with.. most people identify with their mind and personalities, their energies, their physical bodies, etc. Those are all part of the self too, inasmuch as the self is an aggregate. But the only part of the self that survives all the bardos of death and the unmaking of that aggregate is the soul, according to the Himalayan mystics.

 

If you mean to ask why people don't identify with this part of themselves more in life, i think its because it takes a very subtle perception to turn away from the world of forms and ideas and visible phenomena, even to be conscious of a formless and immortal aspect of oneself takes very subtle perception. So its probably because its not obvious, to understate the issue. But much of the work of Buddhism (show me the face you had before you were born) and Daoism, among other paths, is designed to awaken just this perception. So what prevents it from being the self is on one hand nothing, it is already the self at its deep core, and on the other hand, conditioned perception, which tells us nothing by observation of forms about this so-called soul.

[konchog uma]

Every explanation is just explaining what self could be, lol. O wait, you mean there's not a self but there is?

 

 

right, there's not a self but there is.

[Pu-erh]

There is a pretty good Wikipedia article on this subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_%28Buddhism%29

 

I think the main point is that the you that you think you are is not what reincarnates. That sense of self is an aggregate which is impermanent and falls apart at death.

 

The skandhas dissolve and the mindstream becomes one of the causes for the arising of a new aggregate.

 

One rather advanced (female) lama I knew put it this way: "I'm definitely not the same guy I was last time."

[Informer]

If you say that nothing reincarnates, do you imply with that that the soul is nothing, or "non-existant"?

 

So do you believe that anything that is non-physical is essentially not part of existance? Do you believe that information is non-existance? Do you believe that information is physical?

 

Its just food for thought, so that you can relax, as your mind is too busy to eat his meal.

 

I mean that what is considered self from that perspective, isn't reincarnating.

 

Let's consider this scientifically shall we?

 

We are all made of atoms. Each atom that makes us up will one day decay to provide nutrients for a plant, which may in turn provide nutrients for an animal to reproduce. So that single atom that was once a part of you is still existing although in a different manner. The tricky part is when we consider non-locality and the memory each of these atoms retains, regardless of the distances involved. My atoms retains remembrance of it's actions that existed previously. So without time and space to pose interference we are all interconnected through the timelessness of now.

[Informer]

You are made up of many things that once had existence, your entire life you have been accumulating atoms from other sources. Sources that have been on this planet for aeons and that will remain for aeons after that body is dust in the wind.

 

Edited December 11, 2011 by Informer

[Informer]

If you say that nothing reincarnates, do you imply with that that the soul is nothing, or "non-existant"?

 

Define soul.

 

So do you believe that anything that is non-physical is essentially not part of existance? Do you believe that information is non-existance? Do you believe that information is physical?

 

 

Nope, I try not to believe.

[Alethaeia]

yeah beliefs are dangerous...

i think it was Krishnamurti who said that to observe without evaluating is the highest form of human intelligence

it's not easy, but it is simple

: )

[doc benway]

 

Let's consider this scientifically shall we?

 

....

 

My atoms retains remembrance of it's actions that existed previously.

Can you demonstrate scientifically that "your" individual atoms have memory?

Or are you referring to memory as an aggregate of all or a portion of your atoms?