Quantum Cosmology

[cloud recluse]

[split from Enlightenment and Evolution]

 

Cloud I do like the way you think! Yes indeed there may be no limits to our evolving consciousness! And If Quantum theory proves to be correct -as I suspect it shall- then it is only our consciousness that is "real" in any meaningful way.

Thinking of you all blissfully aware in cyberspace- the tangible extension of the "quantum soup"...

Wayfarer:

 

this may actually be the 'bump' in our Roll

 

This is really something for a seperate thread,if anyone was interested.Youve touched on the whole question of "Quantum Mysticism" here,& its something I have reservations about.

 

Now I will be the first to admit that I was a big fan of Capras TAO OF PHYSICS which I first read over 20 years ago.And I was then quite taken by Bohm-Pribrams Holographic paradigm of mind/matter.

 

Then I read acollection of essays edited by Ken Wilber,THE HOLOGRAPHIC PARADIGM & OTHER PARADOXES.Which I seem to have lost my copy of The contributors to that pointed out some problems with propositions for a Quantum Mysticism,on both the scientific & the mystical side.

 

Also,I started to talk with actual physicists,who were quite open-minded ( & perhaps a bit fond of LSD too),but also well versed in such matters (One of them went on to do a full Doctorate in Quantum Physics & is now doing research in the area,interspersed with Iyengar Yoga & a fondness for taking ecstasy with beautiful asian women !!!).This further moderated my initial enthusiasm.

 

Anyhow,Im less certain nowadays that Quantum mechanics will deliver the mysticism that so many people expect from it.Ive actually become a bit skeptical of that enterprise.It may be both bad science AND bad mysticism.

 

But if you want to take this up,I think we will need a seperate thread.

Hope this isnt too much of a downer post

 

Regards,Cloud

Edited October 14, 2006 by sean

[sean]

Have you checked out Dynamic Tao? Funny enough the author Wayne just joined here so I'm sure you could get into a very fruitful discussion with him about this. I've been reading through the book there and it's really intriguing. I also had some quantum mystical bubbles popped by Wilber, but now am having a chance to rethink my perspective.

[cloud recluse]

Have you checked out Dynamic Tao? Funny enough the author Wayne just joined here so I'm sure you could get into a very fruitful discussion with him about this. I've been reading through the book there and it's really intriguing. I also had some quantum mystical bubbles popped by Wilber, but now am having a chance to rethink my perspective.

 

Looks intruiging from a casual glance.Certainly looks worth the effort.

 

I will say,although Wilber & the other contributors to that book did raise important questions about the Quantum Mysticism popularised by Capra,this isnt to say that cutting edge science doesnt upset the mechanist-determinist assumptions inherited from the 19th Century reductionists.

 

It was more his cautions about trying to use empirical observations to 'prove' mystical cosmologies,that its a fundamental blunder,both for science & mysticism.If I recall correctly,I think he said that the most one could expect was that certain interpretations of empirical data might see an interdependency & wholism on the material level that could be compatible with the themes of interdependence & wholism that a mystic sees on aaall levels of being.

 

But this still doesnt 'prove' empirically the mystics vision,& nor should the mystic particularly care

 

Regards,Cloud

[wayne]

[split from Enlightenment and Evolution]

 

Then I read acollection of essays edited by Ken Wilber,THE HOLOGRAPHIC PARADIGM & OTHER PARADOXES.Which I seem to have lost my copy of The contributors to that pointed out some problems with propositions for a Quantum Mysticism,on both the scientific & the mystical side.

Cloud,

 

I have not read Ken book and have no actual knowledge of how mysticism is believed. But here is my current thinking about quantum and mysticism. Quantum theory shows that there is a level of reality that is beyond our daily experiences. That level is not accessible to us directly, but we can perceive it in various forms as our experiences (like experimental measurements). The set of experiences (measuremsnts) are related in certain way (as in the quantum theory). The individual experiences as correlated by the theory also represent realities.

 

I consider the experiences are real, but they must be correlated under another level of reality. I can imagine a set of belief that we are experiencing somthing real in this world that is a result of something else not in this world. At the conceptual level, this is consistent with the way we formulate quantum theory. Is this the base of mysticism? Maybe the difference is in how we vaildate the experiences in a mystic world.

 

This is probably farther than what I should venture into, with my very limited mystic knowledge.

 

Wayne

[wayne]

It was more his cautions about trying to use empirical observations to 'prove' mystical cosmologies,that its a fundamental blunder,both for science & mysticism.If I recall correctly,I think he said that the most one could expect was that certain interpretations of empirical data might see an interdependency & wholism on the material level that could be compatible with the themes of interdependence & wholism that a mystic sees on aaall levels of being.

 

But this still doesnt 'prove' empirically the mystics vision,& nor should the mystic particularly care

 

Regards,Cloud

Cloud,

 

Aren't all religions follow a similar pattern of thinking? For example, we all look alike in certain way, so there is superbeing who represents all of us in a mysterious way. This is probably much older than quantum theory. When we have to deal with "truths" at different levels, it may be convenient to invoke quantum theory in the discussion since quantum theory is supposed to have been understood in a consistent way by all people by now. It becomes a common language to deal with other common pattern of thinking.

 

As I have proposed in my book, we may use quantum theory as an example of how we can free our self from the classical dualistic thinking so we can think holistically. If we can think holistically, we can re-construct a "logical" view as proposed by Laotzu in his Tao Te Ching. We can then learn some principles in his books.

 

This doesn't mean that quantum theory prove Tao philosophy correct! All we can say is that Tao philosophy can be logicaly and cosistently interpreted if we have a non-dualistic "mode of thinking" as we have learnt in quantum theory. Actually this non-dualistic mode of thinking is required to understand many other things. One good thing is that our view of our inner world may be consistent with our view of the external world (and vice versa).

 

Just to share some more thought on this.

 

Wayne

[Wayfarer64]

One good thing is that our view of our inner world may be consistent with our view of the external world (and vice versa).

 

Wayne

 

 

Thank you Wayne for joining us here!

 

This is what I was getting at or trying to get at anyway- There is a synergy between the two systems of thought that is at least reassuring.

 

This may indeed lead to the enthusiastic humming of a new tune in my world where the ahha!! of science joins with the om... hum of spirituality. I use this analogy because music is already known to be mathamatically based yet transports us most exstaticly...My enthusiasm carries me away sometimes.

 

so-

 

Cloud - I am glad you started this thread -but my quip about cyberspace being an extension of the quantum soup was admittidly a silly, light-hearted stretch. I will try to be more clear as to when I am being serious or frivilous...

 

Sean & I have a similar thread going elsewheres (IAM awakened) that may be brought over here...

[cloud recluse]

Wayne,

 

Sorry its taken me a while to reply,but Ive been preoccupied with other matters,& I havent really had a chance to check your site out properly yet.

 

But I will say that your idea mentioned here about Quantum theory prividing a new 'language',as it were,for comprehending ideas on any level certainly sounds worthwhile.If Quantum Mechanics undoes the crude linear dualisms on the atomic level,then it is striking at the heart of dualistic materialism in general.So any mode of thought learnt from it could really provide a new perspective that may indeed be harmonious with Daoism ,& so help with our own comprehension of Daoism.

 

I want to have achance to check your stuff out first though,before I start shooting my mouth off any further.

 

 

Wayfarer,

 

Sorry if I was a bit overly serious in my reaction there I suppose that Ive started to see such a broad popularisation of this notion that QM "proves" Mysticism that it makes me cranky (& I can be quite a cranky old shit at times ).It seems to have joined my list of pet peeves.But Im bang up for any discussion on modern science (to the extent that I can follow it) & the consequences it has for our worldview. QM may not be "proving" Mysticism,but it does seem to be upsetting reductionism,& that in itself is funky!

 

Regards,Cloud

[wayne]

If Quantum Mechanics undoes the crude linear dualisms on the atomic level,then it is striking at the heart of dualistic materialism in general. So any mode of thought learnt from it could really provide a new perspective that may indeed be harmonious with Daoism ,& so help with our own comprehension of Daoism.

Cloud,

 

I have used QM heavily in my old day on nuclear theory. There has been a lot of progress and are less mysterious in a few aspects. I am re-visiting QM and am finding more. The basic QM that are familiar to us are already sufficient to put Tao philosophy on a clearer horizon. In the future, I will add info into my website when I get my control back in a few weeks. (It is being moved to a permanent site.)

 

I am glad that there have been more acceptance of discussing Tao with sciences. We are really recovering our cost in science education! [by the way, some college students already like the book, as their textbook.]

 

Wayne

[freeform]

I remember doing a chart of correspondences between aspects of QM and Taoist cosmology (I Ching)... I'll dig it up if anyone's interested...

[cloud recluse]

I remember doing a chart of correspondences between aspects of QM and Taoist cosmology (I Ching)... I'll dig it up if anyone's interested...

 

Lets see it then.Dont be a tease

[wayne]

I have found the book by Dalai Lama "The Universe in a Single Atom" very interetsing. He talk about Buddhism and quantum theory and relativity. He is really a great religious leader who is open to scientific thinking.

 

This is an important event. We have one step in the right direction. In 2004, I wrote my book (Dynamic Tao and Its Manifestation) relating Tao philosophy to quantum theory and relativity. It was a personal observation that quantum theory and Tao philosophy have very similar non-dualistic thinking. For the first time, Tao philosophy was linked to quantum cosmology!

 

After Dalai Lama's book, I hope more people will accept the fact that we can understand Tao at a deeper level by revisiting modern sciences. Of course, not all scientific phenomena can be blindly applied to Tao, but we have a good start.

 

Wayne

[wayne]

Wayne

 

It is interesting and surprising to read my responses more than two years ago! The situation is much more clear now about the relationship between reality and experiences. Our experiences, if not correlated properly, will appear to be mysterious. It is normal and expected that Tao, or any other reality, will appear mysterious in the way that quantum effects will appear mysterious within classical mecahnaics.

 

Anyway if there is new discusiions, I will have more time now.

 

Wayne