IMA vs. MMA

[Yoda]

[split from Michael Winn's Response To Sean Denty On Ht]

 

SeanD,

 

So you've had good exposure to the electric chi masters... what do you think are the chances of one of them 'enlightening' the MA community and maybe win a UFC fight or two just to open up people's minds? Your school would get flooded with MA-ists by the thousands! IMA deserves to be on top, imo. I look forward to that day.

 

They always say that would 'cheapen' the teachings, but I'm thinking that would be skillful means as the Tibetans would say.

 

-Yoda

Edited October 14, 2006 by sean

[Trunk]

.. win a UFC fight or two just to open up people's minds? Your school would get flooded with MA-ists by the thousands! IMA deserves to be on top, imo.

I've met a few advanced internal martial artists and, imo, there would be no contest between them and an external. (The external wouldn't have a chance.)

 

At least one of the big problems, though, is that it'd bring IMAs to a crowd that is really into kicking ass. And, with advanced level IMA.. that's just silly; you'd end up with a bunch of maimed & dead people. The guy I studied shing-yi with has said, "I don't teach bangers", and I couldn't agree more.

[Cameron]

I've met a few advanced internal martial artists and, imo, there would be no contest between them and an external. (The external wouldn't have a chance.)

 

At least one of the big problems, though, is that it'd bring IMAs to a crowd that is really into kicking ass. And, with advanced level IMA.. that's just silly; you'd end up with a bunch of maimed & dead people. The guy I studied shing-yi with has said, "I don't teach bangers", and I couldn't agree more.

 

 

Ime thinking of returning to the Shing Yi training myself. That's cool you and I study in the same lineage Kieth. Though I didn't really learn much from one class besides this one saamchoy posture and a litte qigong.

 

So you really think IMA can compete with modern MMA stuff and BJJ? I like to think this is true but it hasent really been proven. I just don't see any internal fighter standing in front of an 'external' fighter like Mirco Crocop or Chuck Lidell and doing too well. Too much physical power in the MMA guys. Also, probably some steroid use involved like other proffesional sports.

[Lozen]

I've heard that about IMA before, but I have to admit I'm skeptical. The fact that the IMA guys I know refuse to spar because their art is too d3adl33 honestly sounds like a cop-out to me... Plus, if you can't tone the intensity down, then how useful is your art?

 

Ooh, I hope I'm not going to start a war again esp. since Trunk already hates me, lol.

[Spectrum]

On the "effectiveness" of "IMA" vs. "MMA" :

 

Shouldn't we also ask if MMA can be as effective at healing as the IMA?

[Lozen]

On the "effectiveness" of "IMA" vs. "MMA" :

 

Shouldn't we also ask if MMA can be as effective at healing as the IMA?

 

See, that's the other thing--of all the IMA practitioners I've gotten to know, which I'll admit is probably only around 20, only one of them was healthy. The rest were nutcases. Or maybe you could put it politely and say they had excess chi they needed to ground so they wouldn't act like nutcases. But they certainly weren't healthy. I'd say maybe a third of the MMA guys I know were probably not healthy either, because they trained too much and had a lot of inflammation going on because they were walking around broken all the time, but for the most part they seemed of sane mind.

[Spectrum]

See, that's the other thing--of all the IMA practitioners I've gotten to know, which I'll admit is probably only around 20, only one of them was healthy. The rest were nutcases. Or maybe you could put it politely and say they had excess chi they needed to ground so they wouldn't act like nutcases. But they certainly weren't healthy. I'd say maybe a third of the MMA guys I know were probably not healthy either, because they trained too much and had a lot of inflammation going on because they were walking around broken all the time, but for the most part they seemed of sane mind.

 

Those who arn't healthy in any art will fall to the wayside. It's not a matter of who's best today, it's who's left tommorow. Immaturity in any art falls away when met with the truth testing of opposition. Whether opposition is an opponent, a partner, the environment or yourself, you will either stick with it or you wont.

 

The beauty of modern mma, and particularlly bjj is it's truth testing methodology. This i think has added value to the arts in general.

Edited October 14, 2006 by Spectrum

[Trunk]

Ime thinking of returning to the Shing Yi training myself. That's cool you and I study in the same lineage Kieth. Though I didn't really learn much from one class besides this one saamchoy posture and a litte qigong.

I bowed out of studying shing-yi, cause my illness-stagnation issues were barring progress. My progress was stuck for years, so said, "bye". Though, clearly, the Kenny Gong lineage of shing-yi is the shit. I've done a lot of unwinding since then through other avenues, but now it's hard to go back. Saamchoy, done correctly, is fucked-up (difficult) and does a lot.

 

So you really think IMA can compete with modern MMA stuff and BJJ? I like to think this is true but it hasent really been proven. I just don't see any internal fighter standing in front of an 'external' fighter like Mirco Crocop or Chuck Lidell and doing too well. Too much physical power in the MMA guys.

The MMA guys are undeveloped on deeper layers. The high level IMAs can basically just touch someone, put their hand on their arm or where ever and the external guy loses all bodily power. I stand by my comment: no contest.

 

Refer back to stories of Morihei Ueshiba throwing people around like nothing, even when he was an old man.

[Jin]

So you really think IMA can compete with modern MMA stuff and BJJ? I like to think this is true but it hasent really been proven. I just don't see any internal fighter standing in front of an 'external' fighter like Mirco Crocop or Chuck Lidell and doing too well. Too much physical power in the MMA guys. Also, probably some steroid use involved like other proffesional sports

 

Looks like fun, can I take that challenge?

 

Don't think I quite got the quote wrapping manuever... Any help?

 

Jin

Edited October 14, 2006 by sean

[Smile]

[so you really think IMA can compete with modern MMA stuff and BJJ? I like to think this is true but it hasent really been proven. I just don't see any internal fighter standing in front of an 'external' fighter like Mirco Crocop or Chuck Lidell and doing too well. Too much physical power in the MMA guys. Also, probably some steroid use involved like other proffesional sports]

 

Looks like fun, can I take that challenge?

 

Don't think I quite got the quote wrapping manuever... Any help?

 

Jin

Hi Jin, did you miss all the fun? What do you think all the exchange on HT board and here?

 

To quote, highlight the text and then click "Wrap in Quote" botton (second from the right right above the text window). Or use [*quote] text [/*quote] remove the *

[SheepishLord]

Ime thinking of returning to the Shing Yi training myself. That's cool you and I study in the same lineage Kieth. Though I didn't really learn much from one class besides this one saamchoy posture and a litte qigong.

 

So you really think IMA can compete with modern MMA stuff and BJJ? I like to think this is true but it hasent really been proven. I just don't see any internal fighter standing in front of an 'external' fighter like Mirco Crocop or Chuck Lidell and doing too well. Too much physical power in the MMA guys. Also, probably some steroid use involved like other proffesional sports.

 

Dude, if Stu Charno's Shing Yi teacher, Kenny Gong, were still alive today he could enter the ring at 80 years old with Fedor and Crocop at the same time and when the referee shouted "fight" both Fedor and Corcop would be dead inside of 20 seconds. Kenny Gong was the most super-human thing I have ever laid eyes on. A man with the body of an animal. The flexibility of a contortionist. A ribcage that could collapse into a solid wall of bone. Faster then you could see. Knew your moves before you made them. Could stand as if waiting for a bus and could not be knocked over or uprooted no matter how strong you were. Oh yeah, and he could kill you with one shot. I mean, if he hit you anywhere in the face your kneck broke in several places. Any body shot would rupture your internal organs. I am not talking about mystical chi power which he certainly had, I am talking about pure physical power. Only those who had the luck to meet him while alive would believe this level of skill existed. He is the reason I gave up IMA--there is no teacher/fighter alive who can touch him so who would I study under?

[DentyDao]

Just for fun; and this has nothing to do with anything other than just amusement. John Chang met Mike Tyson once. He let Tyson hit him as hard as he could for about 10 minutes; nothing. Then he tapped Tyson on the wrist with about 1.5% of his qi; Tyson was out for about two minutes and he had no idea what hit him.

 

These types of contests are meaningless to anyone beyond a certain level.

[Jin]

Just for fun; and this has nothing to do with anything other than just amusement. John Chang met Mike Tyson once. He let Tyson hit him as hard as he could for about 10 minutes; nothing. Then he tapped Tyson on the wrist with about 1.5% of his qi; Tyson was out for about two minutes and he had no idea what hit him.

 

These types of contests are meaningless to anyone beyond a certain level.

 

The meaning I see in these contests is that if people on TV see that IMA can topple MMA, then they can go outside and practice Taiji in parks much like they do in China. These contests, if won by IMA, can lead to a raise in planetary consciousness.

 

Jin

[Lozen]

Just for fun; and this has nothing to do with anything other than just amusement. John Chang met Mike Tyson once. He let Tyson hit him as hard as he could for about 10 minutes; nothing. Then he tapped Tyson on the wrist with about 1.5% of his qi; Tyson was out for about two minutes and he had no idea what hit him.

 

Is this documented anywhere other than, say, John Chang's journal? I guess I'm just a bit skeptical of all of the mystical claims these guys make.

[sean]

Just for fun; and this has nothing to do with anything other than just amusement. John Chang met Mike Tyson once. He let Tyson hit him as hard as he could for about 10 minutes; nothing. Then he tapped Tyson on the wrist with about 1.5% of his qi; Tyson was out for about two minutes and he had no idea what hit him.

 

These types of contests are meaningless to anyone beyond a certain level.

I am willing to put $100 on this story being complete and utter bullshit.

 

Hey, should we split this MA stuff to a new thread?

[Cameron]

Dude, if Stu Charno's Shing Yi teacher, Kenny Gong, were still alive today he could enter the ring at 80 years old with Fedor and Crocop at the same time and when the referee shouted "fight" both Fedor and Corcop would be dead inside of 20 seconds. Kenny Gong was the most super-human thing I have ever laid eyes on. A man with the body of an animal. The flexibility of a contortionist. A ribcage that could collapse into a solid wall of bone. Faster then you could see. Knew your moves before you made them. Could stand as if waiting for a bus and could not be knocked over or uprooted no matter how strong you were. Oh yeah, and he could kill you with one shot. I mean, if he hit you anywhere in the face your kneck broke in several places. Any body shot would rupture your internal organs. I am not talking about mystical chi power which he certainly had, I am talking about pure physical power. Only those who had the luck to meet him while alive would believe this level of skill existed. He is the reason I gave up IMA--there is no teacher/fighter alive who can touch him so who would I study under?

 

 

Cool! Kenny's disciple, Tom Morrissey, is here in Phoenix and a really cool teacher. Will get back to training early next year I hope.

 

Cam

[DentyDao]

Edited October 14, 2006 by seandenty

[sean]

TEN minutes of full contact, hard-as-he-can punches from Mike Tyson though? What does John Chang have a bionic qi field? It just doesn't make any sense. And what did Mike Tyson do afterwards? "Oh well, one direct, ungloved punch to the face from me would crush and possibly critically injure most human beings and I just punched someone as hard as I could for TEN FULL MINUTES with no reaction. It was the most insane thing I have ever witnessed in my entire life, I have no idea which way is up or down anymore or what to believe in. Then, he touched me and I passed out. My mind is completely blown. I think I will just go home and forget all about this though. Also, I will not tell a single person this happened to me ever. I'll just let it be a rumor amongst John's students."

 

You are obviously a bright, articulate man Sean, and the things that you are reporting to have experienced directly have a mysterious, mystical air about them ... sweet water, dark fluids being removed from arteries, electric tingles ... but these experiences of yours, perhaps combined with your teacher's charisma, seem to have established some powerful rapport for you to then believe some of these wilder second hand tales. Have you ever personally seen anything even remotely like what you are reporting you believe that John Chang has done? Isn't it difficult enough to discern trickery when one is present? Why not stick with more objective reports of events you've witnessed directly?

 

Sean

[Christoph]

Seeing is believing and from what I have seen in contrast to your supernatural stories leads me to believe some of you are totally delusional.I have never seen one shred of evidence to even begin to suggest that and IMA could face off with an MMA. That is not why people train IMA is it? Self defense is different from a duel.

Fighting is physical it is external by definition. Show me someone who can take a punch on the jaw from Lidell,Tyson Fedor ect and not be effected and I will beg to be a disciple.

[Buddy]

denty,

You need to do some serious grounding in reality. Your posting of this fictitious account of Mike Tyson is disturbing. My own teacher is well known for his fighting ability but he real and can be met most nights of the week in Taipei. Yours exist in comic books.

Buddy

[Spectrum]

Presently a ball of condensed golden light floated into the room. Recognizing a challenge for what it was, he shot an energy blast from his palm directly at the sphere. The sphere in response deftly evaded the strike and remained floating nonchalantly in the air......

 

Where was this in China?

 

Actually, there may be a documentary in the works in the next few years that will involve David's masters. If it happens, I think it's going to change the world as we know it.

 

 

The world is already changed as we know it. Those who seek the mysterious find the mysterious. Those who watch TV get a good dose of their much needed medicine for their mind. There has been plenty to find for years, without discrediting the experiences of your Sifu and his bermuda triangle like encounters, there has been a large body of evidence for travelers to ride upon for some time.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...&q=2005+ufo

 

 

The meaning I see in these contests is that if people on TV see that IMA can topple MMA, then they can go outside and practice Taiji in parks much like they do in China.

 

"The people on TV..." can't see... disbelief is connected to the modern myth of television replacing the campfire knowledge of the tribal past. It's just a small window into someone elses intitiation rite, of which our western culture is seriously lacking in a seemingly fatherless generation. Unfortunately "art" is being judged by how well it's performed by cavemen beating on each other.

 

These contests, if won by IMA, can lead to a raise in planetary consciousness.

 

I disagree here in so far as the internals are usually contrary to the consciousness condusive to consistant progress. The only thing anyone has to prove anything to is themselves. The mirror is what people need to look into, not another "reality" show.

 

Spectrum

Edited October 14, 2006 by Spectrum

[Yoda]

The meaning I see in these contests is that if people on TV see that IMA can topple MMA, then they can go outside and practice Taiji in parks much like they do in China. These contests, if won by IMA, can lead to a raise in planetary consciousness.

 

I second that.

 

If SeanD's claims are true, and I am perfectly willing to believe that they are, it's nice that people like him are offering these stories, documentaries, etc. But the most eye opening would be in the UFC ring, imo.

 

Any disbelievers, can go to nyc for a treatment by Robert Peng. While he's not an MA type, you can get the vibe on the power of this sort of thing, which could easily take on multiple assailants.

 

Personally, I find the violence and edginess of the Jack Chang style of Taoism to be unappealing. But it does have tremendous potential to open up even the most dismissive naysayers if brought more into the open.

 

I'm sure David Shen will do a good job on this front, and bring it out in a manner that is respectful of his tradition. I was just thinking that the Jack Chang tradition is so fight-loving, that they'd dig mastering the UFC world in short order.

 

-Yoda

[Jin]

If we look at the contribution of say, Bruce Lee, we find that what he has done through movies stretches beyond "kicking people's ass." And it opened the door for many of he Chinese traditions including the popularization of the Shaolin school in the West via Jet Li for example. Of course, once they get to this, they see that meditation and alchemy are the root of martial arts, as they always were from Da Mo to Zhang, Sanfeng.

 

Think about what would happened if an internal martial artist went into the UFC and displayed these skills to the lay public, that would certainly have a dramatic effect on the entire global poplation. Compared to Bruce Lee's filmaking, real fights broadcast nationally would have a huge effect. Without Bruce Lee, this board may not have existed and we would not be where we are now.

 

Pioneers to the world like Michael Winn are much needed in these times. They bring about a renewed revival of spirituality where it has died out.

 

Jin

[Spectrum]

Without Bruce Lee, this board may not have existed and we would not be where we are now.

 

Pioneers to the world like Michael Winn are much needed in these times. They bring about a renewed revival of spirituality where it has died out.

 

Bruce Lee was a synthesizer of style like Usheiba. Realization is a personal experience. Pioneers speak for themselves. Spirituality is alive and well without the likes of any culturally flavored structure or system, including words to define or catagorize. I wonder how much Usheiba charged for seminars.

 

Spectrum

[Jin]

Realization is a personal experience. Pioneers speak for themselves. Spirituality is alive and well without the likes of any culturally flavored structure or system, including words to define or catagorize. I wonder how much Usheiba charged for seminars.

 

I strongly disagree.

 

If spirituality is alive and well, then what brought out Sakyamuni and Jesus, did they not try and bring testimony to the truth. What about Guan Yin? Yes, realization is personal, but there are many aids to realize one's true nature.

 

I think IMA broadcast is a most effective way towards rasing the vibration of people's consciousness.

 

Btw, Buddha didn't create Buddhism, Jesus didn't create Christianity, these teachings became perverted overtime, but that does not mean that they are pioneers speaking for themselves. Bruce Lee had to name his own style Jeet Kune Do, even though he meant to make it a concept, a philosophy, not another branch.

 

Jin

Edited October 14, 2006 by Jin