Has anyone genuinely received spiritual benefits from Bagua?

[Jetsun]

I was thinking of signing up for Bruce Frantzis Bagua Mastery Programme but the stumbling block is the price as I think it adds up to something like $900 in the end, which is a hell of a lot of money even if it is really good.

 

So I was wondering if anyone can really testify to Bagua's spiritual benefit? I have no doubt it is good for your health and can open up the meridians to promote chi flow and healing and may well be a really good martial art, but will it open up your heart and make you soft and flexible with compassion rather than rigid and tough like some martial arts do?

 

I know Bruce Frantzis says that it was originated by Taoist priests and that it has a lot of spiritual benefit but I also know that he is a really smart guy and has a lot of marketing knowledge and psychological understanding so I don't swallow everything he says. Perhaps the spiritual side has been lost to the martial aspect but he would never say that publicly, so can anyone with personal experience testify that it still does what Bruce says it does and isn't just about beating lots of people up at the same time?

[Jetsun]

When deciding to take Bruce's class, have you thought of how you will work on your skills post-workshop?

 

I think the mastery programme gives you a lot of information you can work at whenever you like and you can practice the steps you have learned from the previous lesson as much as you like before moving on as you get a lot of instruction manuals and dvd's etc you can study to make sure you are doing it right, although of course a teacher is better. It appeals to me because I like walking and I like being in nature, but I don't really like doing still or standing meditation in nature I prefer to be inside so would like something Taoist or spiritual I can do outside to connect with the land.

[suninmyeyes]

Free bagua classes, they are asking for commitment though .

Yearly workshops are charged for.

Reccomended to me by a friend who has a friend attending the classes. haha. Never tried it myself or explored the lineage , so cant testify personally.

Bagua is meant to be very wholesome system, before starting with taiji I was toying with the idea of trying bagua out.

 

http://www.bagua-zhang.info/martial-arts-classes

 

Classes of that style run all over the world:

http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/local_yinstyle_groups.html

[RobB]

Hi,

 

I am only a beginner with Bagua. However, like all of these things it is quite complicated and there is no real substitute for a teacher (and classmates to work with). I see that you are in the UK. If you can be more specific then some of the pople here might be able to recommend a local teacher.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Jetsun]

Hi,

 

I am only a beginner with Bagua. However, like all of these things it is quite complicated and there is no real substitute for a teacher (and classmates to work with). I see that you are in the UK. If you can be more specific then some of the pople here might be able to recommend a local teacher.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

 

Freaky coincidence but I live in the same town as you

[gendao]

I know Bruce Frantzis says that it was originated by Taoist priests and that it has a lot of spiritual benefit but I also know that he is a really smart guy and has a lot of marketing knowledge and psychological understanding so I don't swallow everything he says. Perhaps the spiritual side has been lost to the martial aspect but he would never say that publicly, so can anyone with personal experience testify that it still does what Bruce says it does and isn't just about beating lots of people up at the same time?

I'm guessing a lot of the original intent was lost...like most systems that progressively degenerate with each generation..

 

I mean, I always wondered about "mud-stepping" - what was the real purpose of such odd footwork??

 

Now, I wonder if it might have possibly been intended as a way to gather yin qi???

gathering yin chi from the earth (natural yin) can be done by sliding the foot while doing a specific body movement and breathing technique

I happen to be told of another method:

do it in standing position, do any breathing retention and dantien compression method that you know, have one leg in stationary position, and the other leg moving, sliding on the ground. you will feel that there is different thing on each foot. The stationary foot will have yang chi flown, while the moving/sliding foot will have yin chi gathered from the earth, but it just wont flow up to your body, and when you stop sliding, most of the yin chi gathered will going down back to earth. and ... man! they said it's definitely something in wave form, vibration, and it's not like cold water flow. In our language it is well known among martial arts practioners as 'GETARAN BUMI' ( getaran means vibration, bumi means earth, so it means earth vibration)

 

Or maybe because you are utilizing other source/ type of yin chi that you feel totaly different story? I guess it must be that.

So perhaps circle-walking is actually practiced to simultaneously and continuously gather yang qi through the stationary foot and yin qi through the sliding one...in an ongoing cycle?? It's almost a combo of zhan zhuang and moving qigong, if you think about it..

 

And you walk in a circle because...you can do that in a very confined space (as opposed to walking out in a line)? So at the very least, it's just a lot more practical..

Edited December 14, 2011 by vortex

[Edward M]

Jetsun, just replied dude!!

 

RobB i think i just recommended the same person you are going to

 

PEace

Ed

[Chang]

It is thought that Bagua Chuan was developed from circle walking meditation and qigong exercises practiced by Taoist Monks.

I have doubts as to whether its spiritual benefits are greater than those experienced by practitioners of other Taoist Arts.

Whilst I am sure that Bruce Frantzis workshops would be of great interest I would seriously recommend a local class where you would be able to hone your skills with fellow enthusiasts.

[zerostao]

"Bagua is meant to be very wholesome system"

"So I was wondering if anyone can really testify to Bagua's spiritual benefit?"

"Free bagua classes, they are asking for commitment though "

"Serendipity! I think you just found your new training partner" take advantage of this

 

" whether its spiritual benefits are greater than those experienced by practitioners of other Taoist Arts."

imo for some of us it gets us there quicker

 

baguazhang is not imo for everyone but if it is for you then go for it

 

nice post vortex

[JessOBrien]

Hi all,

 

As someone who as completed the ba gua program that Kumar created, I can offer some perspective here.

For one, it's the most detailed and vast self-study program I've ever seen. It's huge and would be years of training if you followed through with it. I suspect that most people who buy it just leave it on the shelf. However, if you really wanted to practice, this could help guide you through many enjoyable sessions.

 

Of course you'll need a teacher in person to get into the depths of it. But this could be a good start for someone diligent. Then later spend time with a teacher questioning and correcting things as you go.

 

Because it sounds like money is a concern, why not just get his book "The Great Stillness". It is a great intro to Kumar's ba gua system, and has plenty to work on. If you like that training, perhaps it's worth going for the bigger thing.

 

Even better, save the dough and spend it going to a live training with one of the masters who teach. If you are inclined to Kumar's system, use the money to go to a seminar and take home a lot of good stuff to train. To me training in person is always the best option. Watching the vids and reading the books is a pale shadow. It can inspire, but the real deal is always in person.

 

As for the walking, you guys are on the right track. The way Kumar teaches it, you push and pull energy up your legs and feet as you walk and it can be a very powerful Chi Kung practice. Over many years I've gone through a lot with it, and in the end have felt it's been great for my legs and a lot of fun. The four part step linear walking he teaches is a great way to rehabilitate knees and connect your mind to your feet. First you start slow to heal, then eventually the circle walking goes very fast.

 

As for spirituality, that's all about blood, sweat and tears. The combat training of Ba Gua requires full contact sparring, but the spiritual training requires that you look deeply into your soul and that's not pretty. I prefer the sparring by a long shot.

 

Ba Gua can be a lot of fun,and the basic circle walking contains many great lessons! Going on to the palm changes gets pretty intense and may not be for everyone. Kumar's system is a good one, but not the only one. My advice is to beg borrow or steal to get anything you can get your hands on!!!

 

Take care,

Jess O

[zerostao]

good post JessObrien.

"My advice is to beg borrow or steal to get anything you can get your hands on!!!"

absolutely!

[RobB]

Hi Jetsun,

 

Can't believe I never revisited this thread! Did you ever get in touch with Alex? I think he takes his spirituality as seriously as his fighting. It's a good blend. Hope to see you at training. I'm also trying to find people for lunchtime rou shou in the town centre if that sounds interesting.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

 

Ps: Hi Ed!

[Jetsun]

Hi Jetsun,

 

Can't believe I never revisited this thread! Did you ever get in touch with Alex? I think he takes his spirituality as seriously as his fighting. It's a good blend. Hope to see you at training. I'm also trying to find people for lunchtime rou shou in the town centre if that sounds interesting.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

 

Ps: Hi Ed!

 

Hi Rob, I haven't been in touch with Alex yet but I read his book "Esoteric Warriors" recently which is pretty interesting, he has certainly met a lot of interesting teachers. I haven't got into Bagua yet as the Bruce Frantzis programme was a bit too expensive but I might take up some sort of training in the spring so maybe see you then.

 

thanks

[Gerard]

So I was wondering if anyone can really testify to Bagua's spiritual benefit?

 

This is what it does (according to my personal experience): it returns you to the state of the original spirit. It deletes everything along that journey.

 

Pure, unconditioned and totally connected conscious state, like what you see in the eyes of an innocent child.

 

Vipassana works on the same level. It is a good idea combining both.

 

 

Anyway, good luck if you finally decide to take up BGZ practice.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2014 by Gerard

[lifeforce]

I've seen and heard of tons and tons of enormous benefits from the practice of Bagua, and it's core training, circle walking.

I've put this off for long enough and thanks to Gerard's amazing posts on walking meditation combined with zhan zhuang, I've done some further research and mapped out a practice which I will start first thing in the morning.

I'm going to start just with linear walking first, to get the feel of the stepping and of keeping the body in correct posture.

The mud step and crane stepping methods are what I plan to work on.

I'll focus on mud stepping, ultra-slow everyday for a month, then try crane stepping, again, extremely slowly, for the next month.

I'll have a go at walking the circle when I feel comfortable with these steps, no matter how many months it takes.

Reports of my experiences will be in my practice journal section.

 

Great article on the benefits of circle walking are here.

 

 

Mud stepping instructions:

* Circle walking is practiced for three intertwined primary purposes. The first is to achieve stillness of mind . The second is to generate a strong, healthy, disease-free body, with relaxed nerves and great stamina, which Taoist monks needed both for normal daily work and to be able to meditate for prolonged periods. The third purpose is to develop balance internally while either your inner world or the events of the external world are changing, often faster than you can keep up with.

This is how to perform the mud-walking step:
1. Stand relaxed with your arms at your sides, keep feet parallel, one foot one and a half to three inches off the ground.

2. Step forward, keeping your raised foot parallel to the ground, heel and toe an equal distance from the ground. (The higher your foot is above the ground, the easier the step is; the nearer your foot is to the ground, the more body control is required.) During this step, your hips and body weight do not move forward.

3. During the last 20 percent of the step, your lead foot simultaneously moves forward an inch or two and touches and brakes on the ground. Also during the last 20 percent, friction is initially applied on the ball of the foot with the toes, bringing the foot to a full stop flat on the ground. When you finish the step, there is no body weight whatsoever on your lead foot, above and beyond the weight of the foot itself.

The heel-toe method is more appropriate for those whose balance is poor or who have back or lower body problems. This method is essentially the one employed in normal everyday walking, only with more awareness than most of us use. Here is how this step should be performed:

4. Stand relaxed with your arms at your sides, keeping one foot one and a half to three inches off the ground.

5. Step forward with one foot and have the heel touch the ground first, making sure there is absolutely no weight on it.

6. As you shift all of your weight forward, gradually roll your foot to the ground like a cat does, clearly feeling every sensation in the sole of your foot until your toes are on the floor.

7. Finish with your weight on the lead foot.

Walking in a Straight Line
Choose whichever of the two previous methods of stepping that suits you, and incorporate your choice throughout all of the following walking exercises. Walk very slowly at first until you have a good understanding of all the various parts of the walking process. Then gradually increase your speed.

Part 1: Begin with your feet side by side and paralled, then step forward. Begin standing with your feet together, your arms at your sides, and your right foot one and a half to three inches off the ground. From feet parallel, your right foot steps forward no farther apart from your left foot than the width of your hips. Keep 100 percent of your weight on your left leg, and slowly step forward with your right leg, owithout transferring any of your body weight forward. As your right foot goes slowly forward and lands on the ground, either heel first or toe first (depending on the method you are using):

(1) maintain awareness of every part of the bottom of your right foot, including your toes;

(2) be aware of every inch of air space your foot travels through, and every sensation, externally and internally, that the step generates; and

(3) no matter which stepping method you are using, be especially attentive to how you put your foot on the ground. Try not to let the act of having your foot touch the ground disrupt your concentration or awareness. Don't get discouraged. Remember that your ability to concentrate will naturally grow with practice. In the beginning, it is a difficult task to maintain complete concentration.

Part 2: Shift your weight from your back leg to your front leg. Keep your left foot flat and steady, anchored on the floor, your right foot ahead of it. Push back through your left heel to push your body forward until 100 percent of your weight is shifted to your right leg and foot. Keep both feet flat on the floor. Feel every sensation as you push your weight forward-when you push from your left leg, when the shifting weight goes through your belly and hips, and when your right leg receives it. Feel every sensation on the bottom of both feet. The forward weight shift finishes on your right leg.

Part 3: Bring your back foot forward until it is parallel to your front foot.
With your weight 100 percent on your right leg, bring your left foot forward, with the bottom of the foot parallel to the floor if you can (otherwise, heel higher than the toe, especially for heel-toe stepping), until both feet are touching side by side, or no more than six inches apart. When you finish, your weight is still on your right leg, and the left foot is one and a half to three inches off the ground.

Part 4: Begin again with your opposite leg. You now will repeat parts 1, 2, and 3, reversing lefts for rights and vice versa.

(a) Feet parallel, keeping 100 percent of your weight on your right leg, step forward now with your left leg.

( Shift 100 percent of your weight from your back right leg to your left front leg. You are now 100 percent on your left leg, zero percent on your right leg.

© Bring your right foot forward until it is parallel with your left foot. Your weight is still 100 percent on your left leg. Practice as much as you possibly can. Gradually, as your balance gets better, you can let your stride get longer. Your legs will stretch and your blood will pump more strongly as your blood circulation improves. Practice this straight-line walking for a minimum of one week to a month before attempting the next phase of circle walking. The straight line walking you have just learned will become the inside step of circle walking.


Edited January 31, 2012 by lifeforce

[zerostao]

i also find Gerard inspirational i have not yet met a baguazhang player who is not inspirational.

lifeforce you can still continue with the xingyi too.

if you have heard tons and tons, then you have not met my friend scott yet , as he will further peel back the onion to reveal tons and tons more. he is also in the opinion that he can teach bgz to anyone.

it gets labeled as being complicated , it kinda is but in a simple way. it may be complicated to keep up with all the inner workings going on, but the external movements can be simplified.

as far as the month idea, you will know when it is time to change.

 

everyone keep sharing about the baguazhang and keep playing with it.