Seth is giving up Buddhism!

[Seth Ananda]

Ok, Title says it all.

 

I have tried being Buddhist for the last couple of years, but really the world view just doesn't suit me. I am very glad for having given it a go, and aspects of its View will always be with me.

 

Here are a few points relevant to my decision making process.

 

1) I am not sure that Tibetan Buddhism can get many western students very far.

After finally meeting a High level practitioner - Changling Rinpoche, and meeting students of his that have been with him for the last 10 years, I am worried.

They are exceptionally moral and lovely people, but they [the ones i talked to] are proud of all the Highest Tantra empowerments they have. Some are very consistent in their practices, doing 3-4 hours a day, just to fulfil their vows from all the Tantra Initiation practice requirements, and that is great, but, it is 3-4 hours a day of reciting endless prayers/aspirations/confessions with points of deity visualisation.

Where is the serious Insight development or even serious concentration needed for 'actual' enlightenment?

Changling was testament to the fact that the path works in a Monastery, where all day every day is all that stuff. But I lost faith that I with my Karma as a father and a house holder can make any decent progression in this path.

 

2) Then there is Theravada, which requires a ton of Vipashna/Samahdi in varying degrees depending on the school.

My house mate is doing very well on this path. This year he has done a 4 month, a three month and then another 4 month retreat, and he is actually seems to be getting somewhere with it. I know many many people who do several 10 days a year, but that does not really seem to give them any great results.

Again as a Father, I can not be spending months at a time in Vipashna.

 

3) And Vmarco will Love this - I am a Theist at heart. I can believe all I want that there is no underlying substance to the universe, [and i really did get convinced by this logically with the E&DO teachings] but I can see and feel the light underlying all things on a daily basis, and my heart knows that I live in a Interactive and Conscious universe.

I experience that fact with the deepest layers of my being.

Also this is the experience that is central to probably nearly every tradition before Buddhism, from the earliest Shamanisms to the Abrahamic religions, Egypt to India...

World Inclusive paths like Sufism, and KS are far more suited to my way of growing and my karmic circumstances and have practices I can use constantly throughout my day to day life.

The Sufi practice of remembrance - Keeping ones heart in constant communion with the one - I can use everywhere. And I have missed it so much these last few years.

 

4) I had some great realisations in Buddhism. An experience of Emptiness, a realisation of No Self... I can continue developing these in a different context.

Even the teachings on [not] clinging to subtle states I can still use. Although the devotional practices actually engender clinging, I can use them to get into very deep states far faster than anything Buddhism has to offer me, and then I can apply those teachings...

 

 

 

So Great blessings to you all, and special thanks to CowTao {CT} for all your help with Buddhism, and your friendship over these last few years.

 

May all your paths Blossom and give fruit.

 

Seth Ananda.

[C T]

 

When i read this, suddenly i recalled a line from Hotel California - "You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave!" Hahaha!

 

In truth, there's nothing to give up, brother Seth.

 

After all, do you really think that there really is a solid self that took on any path called Buddhism? Hence, what is there to give up? Who gives up what? All the wisdom you have gathered can never be taken away from your stream of being...

 

What there was for a while was a certain coming together of causes and conditions which produced the temporal adjustments you needed to make in order to further establish your spiritual alignment, and that was all. Its just coincidental that most of what you needed seemed to flow to you temporarily from the Buddhist teachings, but remember, the central theme in Buddhism is Impermanence... so no tears, but lets rejoice in your aliveness, in your role as a father, in your devotion to compassionate works, and in your ability to adapt and learn and then let go when you felt it was time. After all, another prominent teaching the Buddha taught, which you are evidently putting into practice here, is letting go of clinging. When we have reach the point where we have internalize this 'non-clinging' view, and that we never can possess anything ultimately, only then can we taste freedom.

 

So, no tears, no regrets... at the end of it all, when we can look back on life and say, "Wow, what a ride its been...", at that stage, we will know with certainty that the more we are able to shed and to discard, the swifter will we be free of the fetters which very often starts off not as hindrances but rather as steps to a kind of relative salvation. Yet, once we have moved up another rung, of what use is looking down to try and re-trace our steps?

 

I will always be grateful to have found friendship in you, Seth.

 

Best of everything always,

CT

[doc benway]

Ok, Title says it all.

 

I have tried being Buddhist for the last couple of years, but really the world view just doesn't suit me. I am very glad for having given it a go, and aspects of its View will always be with me.

 

Here are a few points relevant to my decision making process.

 

1) I am not sure that Tibetan Buddhism can get many western students very far.

After finally meeting a High level practitioner - Changling Rinpoche, and meeting students of his that have been with him for the last 10 years, I am worried.

They are exceptionally moral and lovely people, but they [the ones i talked to] are proud of all the Highest Tantra empowerments they have. Some are very consistent in their practices, doing 3-4 hours a day, just to fulfil their vows from all the Tantra Initiation practice requirements, and that is great, but, it is 3-4 hours a day of reciting endless prayers/aspirations/confessions with points of deity visualisation.

Where is the serious Insight development or even serious concentration needed for 'actual' enlightenment?

Changling was testament to the fact that the path works in a Monastery, where all day every day is all that stuff. But I lost faith that I with my Karma as a father and a house holder can make any decent progression in this path.

 

2) Then there is Theravada, which requires a ton of Vipashna/Samahdi in varying degrees depending on the school.

My house mate is doing very well on this path. This year he has done a 4 month, a three month and then another 4 month retreat, and he is actually seems to be getting somewhere with it. I know many many people who do several 10 days a year, but that does not really seem to give them any great results.

Again as a Father, I can not be spending months at a time in Vipashna.

 

3) And Vmarco will Love this - I am a Theist at heart. I can believe all I want that there is no underlying substance to the universe, [and i really did get convinced by this logically with the E&DO teachings] but I can see and feel the light underlying all things on a daily basis, and my heart knows that I live in a Interactive and Conscious universe.

I experience that fact with the deepest layers of my being.

Also this is the experience that is central to probably nearly every tradition before Buddhism, from the earliest Shamanisms to the Abrahamic religions, Egypt to India...

World Inclusive paths like Sufism, and KS are far more suited to my way of growing and my karmic circumstances and have practices I can use constantly throughout my day to day life.

The Sufi practice of remembrance - Keeping ones heart in constant communion with the one - I can use everywhere. And I have missed it so much these last few years.

 

4) I had some great realisations in Buddhism. An experience of Emptiness, a realisation of No Self... I can continue developing these in a different context.

Even the teachings on [not] clinging to subtle states I can still use. Although the devotional practices actually engender clinging, I can use them to get into very deep states far faster than anything Buddhism has to offer me, and then I can apply those teachings...

 

 

 

So Great blessings to you all, and special thanks to CowTao {CT} for all your help with Buddhism, and your friendship over these last few years.

 

May all your paths Blossom and give fruit.

 

Seth Ananda.

Would should we expect from the devil!!!

 

 

It's wonderful when we see how we can be free of a path or a method and trust what we feel inside of us - that is the good kind of faith. Maybe you don't need a defined path to move forward. Follow that beautiful light you feel inside. There is nothing truer than that. Books and methods are to guide us to the point where we have the confidence and sensitivity to perceive and follow that light.

 

Mazel tov and blessings on your way forward my friend.

[Aaron]

I'm not sure you need to announce you're giving up Buddhism, because from what you've written, I don't think you're really giving up on it, but rather you choose to view the teaching of Buddha differently than others have, so really you're not giving up, but rather choosing to expand your understanding. I'm not a firm believer in Buddhism either, in fact I tend to follow more along the lines of Vedanta Hinduism than any other tradition, when it comes to a world view, but as you, I can also see the similarity in all religions.

 

Anyways, good luck whichever path you take. I say don't take things too seriously, when you do you tend to be less open to all the possibilities. Or maybe you could choose to take your own path, which is what I think will happen in the end. I see you following Seth Anandanism in the future, which I believe is absolutely the perfect path for you.

 

Aaron

Edited December 16, 2011 by Twinner

[Lucky7Strikes]

I see you following Seth Anandanism in the future, which I believe is absolutely the perfect path for you.

 

Well said!

[Lucky7Strikes]

Ok, Title says it all.

 

I have tried being Buddhist for the last couple of years, but really the world view just doesn't suit me. I am very glad for having given it a go, and aspects of its View will always be with me.

 

Here are a few points relevant to my decision making process.

 

1) I am not sure that Tibetan Buddhism can get many western students very far.

After finally meeting a High level practitioner - Changling Rinpoche, and meeting students of his that have been with him for the last 10 years, I am worried.

They are exceptionally moral and lovely people, but they [the ones i talked to] are proud of all the Highest Tantra empowerments they have. Some are very consistent in their practices, doing 3-4 hours a day, just to fulfil their vows from all the Tantra Initiation practice requirements, and that is great, but, it is 3-4 hours a day of reciting endless prayers/aspirations/confessions with points of deity visualisation.

Where is the serious Insight development or even serious concentration needed for 'actual' enlightenment?

Changling was testament to the fact that the path works in a Monastery, where all day every day is all that stuff. But I lost faith that I with my Karma as a father and a house holder can make any decent progression in this path.

Stephen Batchelor's Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist is basically this story. He was a devotee of all the rituals and empowerments until western philosophy began to make him question his beliefs. He went from east to west unlike many spiritual practitioners in the west.

[Encephalon]

Filthy, rotten, yellow-bellied traitor!

[konchog uma]

I am a Theist at heart. I can believe all I want that there is no underlying substance to the universe, [and i really did get convinced by this logically with the E&DO teachings] but I can see and feel the light underlying all things on a daily basis, and my heart knows that I live in a Interactive and Conscious universe.

I experience that fact with the deepest layers of my being.

Also this is the experience that is central to probably nearly every tradition before Buddhism, from the earliest Shamanisms to the Abrahamic religions, Egypt to India...

World Inclusive paths like Sufism, and KS are far more suited to my way of growing and my karmic circumstances and have practices I can use constantly throughout my day to day life.

The Sufi practice of remembrance - Keeping ones heart in constant communion with the one - I can use everywhere. And I have missed it so much these last few years.

 

i can so totally relate.. this living world we experience is not the product of some random explosion in space.

 

i pray to and thank the creator every day, but i don't find any real conflict with buddhism, cause i'm not a hardline orthodox buddhist. I guess if i took the buddha as infallible, i would be saying that HE was some kind of god, so i just figure he probably got some stuff wrong, and chalk it up to religious paradox.

 

The vajrayana i practice in my heart is really just an import of shaivite tantrism, which is why i also pray and give thanks to shiva every day.

 

Some orthodox people would say i am a mixed up confused buddhist but i think religious orthodoxy hardens the heart and mind. No bueno.

 

Bless your path Seth Ananda whatever you identify yourself as

[Encephalon]

Stephen Batchelor's Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist is basically this story. He was a devotee of all the rituals and empowerments until western philosophy began to make him question his beliefs. He went from east to west unlike many spiritual practitioners in the west.

 

His previous work,"Buddhism Without Beliefs," is a modern classic detailing the path of an agnostic humanism utilizing the power of Buddhist psychology. It is a Buddhism for Everyman, for the taking.

 

Seth's path represents a grand departure from Batchelor's atheism though. He did say he remains a theist at heart, which he couldn't reconcile completely with Buddhism, if I understand him correctly. I'm completely on board with Seth's reasoning and the convictions of his spirit, because even though I remain a committed agnostic, due to the limits of absolute certainties, there remains in me a small ember of belief in some conscientious force, which I connected to through my own mystical impulses. But as the quote by Fritjof Capra below implies, this conscientious force manifests more as an ecological intelligence than a personal one, at least for me. I guess that makes me something of a modern pantheist.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Encephalon

[Vmarco]

[JohnC]

This feels positive to hear Seth.

[Aetherous]

Welcome to the dark side, Seth.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks to Shin Buddhism, I see no inconsistency in doctrine (not that doctrine is a reason to believe or disbelieve anything) between seeing the sacred life in all things, the drop of water in all life corresponding to the ocean, or the spirit in us that is the spirit of the Creator, that is, that is the Creator, that is, that the Creator is, or whatev we experience this as.

 

I never felt like going for transmissions and all that stuff. I've been reading about Dzogchen and Rigpa, and what they describe as rigpa does not seem so impossible to realize on one's own with the righ amount of background study, yet they still say "but you can't know it properly without one of our transmissions." I'm just not buying that. So I'm going to go and get someone to touch me on the shoulder and make me feel nice and then strive for that feeling all time, when it's only something that already happens within me at certain times. Not to mention, as Seth did, so many people get these "transmissions" only to fall into the trap of all this pride that "now I've got a transmission, and Speedy's gonna do my windows finally. (non-westerners google "cause at speedy" if you missed that one)" when if this transmission doesn't even get them over THIS hump then they need to get granny's transmission of a slap upside the head for thinkin they's a big shot first.

 

Hurts to know that the places we migt believe we can really get farther spiritually are just full of too many people that just "wanna be somebody" and they don't even get past THAT stage before they receive some super high double double transmission. WTF. The spiritual world has always been like this. Every serious dude says this exact same stuff (not that doing so makes me any more or less like them).

 

Anyway, for these reasons, to whoever cares for advice (let alone MY advice) I say read everything you can and get every angle possible from the people who you know really know what there was to know, and then seek to learn more about what you want to learn about. Just figure out what you want to learn and then learn that from who ever and however you want to or can. Learn to love more, to fear less, to have energy, to dream and create, and to make macromay. If I can meditate for 12 days straight, thats great, but if I gained nothing more of what I really want to accomplish spiritually and otherwise from doing so.. ok, rant over

[Harmonious Emptiness]

more @ http://www.nembutsu.info/primshin.htm#amida

 

 

"Amida (Amitabha in the original Sanskrit) is the Buddha of Infinite Light and Eternal Life. He is a manifestation of the absolute and supreme reality which is known in Mahayana Buddhism as the Dharmakaya. The Dharmakaya completely transcends time and space but is also, at the same time, to be found in all things and within all sentient beings. It constitutes the fundamental essence of all existence and possesses, pre-eminently, the qualities of absolute wisdom, compassion and bliss. It is the principal aim of Mahayana Buddhism to ultimately attain, for oneself and others, blissful and eternal union with this reality - a state more commonly referred to as Nirvana.

 

In itself, the Dharmakaya remains unknowable and imperceptible to our ordinary human faculties of sense and cognition. One can only be made aware of it through prajna which is an intuitive power capable of seeing things as they are, undistorted by the influence of ignorance and the myriad passions that afflict us constantly. As only very few people have had the capacity and strength to cultivate prajna through meditation and other practices, the Dharmakaya, in its dynamic compassion, has chosen to manifest itself in a form more readily accessible to the multitudes of suffering and ignorant beings - a form that allows all people to share in its inexhaustible blessings, wisdom and power. This form is Amida Buddha.

 

Amida Buddha and the Dharmakaya are, in fact, identical, differing only in function. One could say that Amida Buddha is the 'personal' face of the formless Absolute and the only medium through which ordinary beings can ever get to know its treasures. In this sense, the revelation of Amida Buddha to the world can be seen as an act of compassion which serves to illuminate one's path in this turbid world of birth-and-death (samsara)."

[Seth Ananda]

Aww Thanks everyone :wub:

[Jetsun]

Even if you are not Buddhist it can help to take the Bodhisattva intention into whatever other practices you do, so before you do qigong or whatever other things you end up doing i find it helps practice a lot to start your practice by dedicating it to help all beings and then end by giving away all merit you may have accumulated. But I do agree if you want to stabilise any realisations you probably do need to become a monk or a least go on a number of long isolated retreats which is not practical for most modern people, most masters in Buddhism seem to have gone on long retreats at some point in their training.

[Informer]

Is Seth really giving up on Buddhism or is Buddhism giving up on Seth?

[Mokona]

I've always thought that religion isn't required to reach divine energy. If your engaging the crown through intent and sending energy up out of it... and taking it back in through that gate I don't see how you could miss out.

[C T]

I've always thought that religion isn't required to reach divine energy. If your engaging the crown through intent and sending energy up out of it... and taking it back in through that gate I don't see how you could miss out.

Conduits are necessary. Religion may or may not be one of them. Although dwindling in numbers, there are still individuals who devote themselves to good works out of religious piety, and through this, find the connection they need in order to reach some degree of spiritual realization and become instruments of peace, hope, joy and fulfillment for others. Its not so much by what means, but how these means are encapsulated and integrated into one's day-to-day living that matters. We ought not to discount the efficacy of devotional practices.

[markern]

you have a roomate that is gone 11 months of the year

 

 

Interesting. I especially found your comment on the practices being better suited to a monastic than a lay environment interesting.

 

 

Two questions Seth.

 

My impression has been that those who hang out at thedharmaoverground.org and kennethfolkdharma do get very fast and very real results with vipassana and also in terms of getting into jhana very fast. Especially after stream entry they have xtremely good Jhana results. Compared to those who go on retreat after retreat without practicing with the (updated) maps and techniques they use at these sites at least they get waaay more progress. As there is a lot of overlap between those sites and thetaobums I would have thought you were familiar with them. Have you used the maps and techniques discussed there? How would you judge the progress of those who hang at those sites?

 

Your comment about getting deeper faster with practices from other traditions triggered my interest. May I ask what practices you have found most effective for getting into deeply concentrated states and most effective in general for cultivation? You have such wide and deep experience I have been wanting to ask you this for a long time.

[mYTHmAKER]

Ok, Title says it all.

 

I have tried being Buddhist for the last couple of years, but really the world view just doesn't suit me. I am very glad for having given it a go, and aspects of its View will always be with me.

 

Seth Ananda.

 

See you in hell

[Enishi]

3) And Vmarco will Love this - I am a Theist at heart. I can believe all I want that there is no underlying substance to the universe, [and i really did get convinced by this logically with the E&DO teachings] but I can see and feel the light underlying all things on a daily basis, and my heart knows that I live in a Interactive and Conscious universe.

I experience that fact with the deepest layers of my being.

Also this is the experience that is central to probably nearly every tradition before Buddhism, from the earliest Shamanisms to the Abrahamic religions, Egypt to India...

World Inclusive paths like Sufism, and KS are far more suited to my way of growing and my karmic circumstances and have practices I can use constantly throughout my day to day life.

The Sufi practice of remembrance - Keeping ones heart in constant communion with the one - I can use everywhere. And I have missed it so much these last few years.

 

 

My feelings are similar. I can agree with the Buddhists that there is no ultimate "inherent" substance or consciousness, but in every more relative respect the Universe DOES appear to me as a holographic entity of boundless Light and Consciousness, a phenomena that is basically God to me in all pragmatic respects.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Enishi

[Vmarco]

[xabir2005]

Ok, Title says it all.

 

I have tried being Buddhist for the last couple of years, but really the world view just doesn't suit me. I am very glad for having given it a go, and aspects of its View will always be with me.

 

Here are a few points relevant to my decision making process.

 

1) I am not sure that Tibetan Buddhism can get many western students very far.

After finally meeting a High level practitioner - Changling Rinpoche, and meeting students of his that have been with him for the last 10 years, I am worried.

They are exceptionally moral and lovely people, but they [the ones i talked to] are proud of all the Highest Tantra empowerments they have. Some are very consistent in their practices, doing 3-4 hours a day, just to fulfil their vows from all the Tantra Initiation practice requirements, and that is great, but, it is 3-4 hours a day of reciting endless prayers/aspirations/confessions with points of deity visualisation.

Where is the serious Insight development or even serious concentration needed for 'actual' enlightenment?

Changling was testament to the fact that the path works in a Monastery, where all day every day is all that stuff. But I lost faith that I with my Karma as a father and a house holder can make any decent progression in this path.

Awakening does not require reciting endless prayers/aspirations/confessions with deity visualisation. These are practices specific to a particular group of practitioners, not all will do the same practices. There are 84000 dharma doors to awakening.

 

I don't do any of those practices you mentioned (mantra, visualization, etc). I hadly meditate more than 30 minutes to 45 minutes in one day (unless I am really free).

2) Then there is Theravada, which requires a ton of Vipashna/Samahdi in varying degrees depending on the school.

My house mate is doing very well on this path. This year he has done a 4 month, a three month and then another 4 month retreat, and he is actually seems to be getting somewhere with it. I know many many people who do several 10 days a year, but that does not really seem to give them any great results.

Again as a Father, I can not be spending months at a time in Vipashna.

I don't know about Vipassana (which is a form of gradual path) but what I can say is that this is not necessary in the path I took* - I and Thusness did not do any retreats before. Of course it will be nice if I can go on a retreat someday, but I do not think it is compulsory in order to progress in one's path as a Buddhist.

 

*Just posted something about my journey in the new topic Experience, Realization, View, Practice and Fruition

3) And Vmarco will Love this - I am a Theist at heart. I can believe all I want that there is no underlying substance to the universe, [and i really did get convinced by this logically with the E&DO teachings] but I can see and feel the light underlying all things on a daily basis, and my heart knows that I live in a Interactive and Conscious universe.

How is this theistic?

 

Luminosity does not necessarily mean theism. It just means luminosity. Buddhists talk about it a lot as you know. The three kayas in Dzogchen stands for emptiness, luminosity, and spontaneous arising primordial energy. They are inseparable. Mahamudra talks about luminosity, Zen talks about luminosity, even Theravada talks about luminosity ('Luminous, monks, is the mind...' - Buddha)

4) I had some great realisations in Buddhism. An experience of Emptiness, a realisation of No Self... I can continue developing these in a different context.

Even the teachings on [not] clinging to subtle states I can still use. Although the devotional practices actually engender clinging, I can use them to get into very deep states far faster than anything Buddhism has to offer me, and then I can apply those teachings...

There are devotional practices in Buddhism too as you know, especially Mahayana and Vajrayana.

[Lucky7Strikes]

How is this theistic?

 

Luminosity does not necessarily mean theism. It just means luminosity. Buddhists talk about it a lot as you know. The three kayas in Dzogchen stands for emptiness, luminosity, and spontaneous arising primordial energy. They are inseparable. Mahamudra talks about luminosity, Zen talks about luminosity, even Theravada talks about luminosity ('Luminous, monks, is the mind...' - Buddha)

There are devotional practices in Buddhism too as you know, especially Mahayana and Vajrayana.

And you can call luminosity God. And you can call interconnectedness "oneness." We are all One vs. We are all interconnected. What's the difference?

 

Your distinctions between theism and emptiness are absolutely arbitrary and just intellectual play. All those essays on differences between truths of this and that religion is not that important. They are just different ways of describing the transition from the ego mind to universal mind, from self-awareness to just awareness, duality to non-duality, head to heart.

 

The degree of transition is just different and the mind interpreting it in varying religious lingo is what's at the base of all the clinging to terms and stages of enlightenment. The more you let go, the less there is. It's strange, you are understanding less and less as the experience of living becomes more mysterious. A lot of the certainties in your head melt (maybe literally too) away, but you find that energetically, you feel more at home, more integrated to each moment.

 

I don't, or can't stand, scripture or spiritual language in the recent months. When I come across them I can feel my mind crumbling into dualities and pseudo mental structures. My mind is trying to forcefully conform experience into an idea, like trying to grasp running water.

 

I realize that in the last 3-4 years that I have been studying, meditating, debating spirituality I have gained nothing in terms of intellectual understanding of the world or what I am. But I can see why something is not a certain way. Whether things are interconnected, disjointed, one, made by God, biological phenomenon, or any number of theories I have entertained, I have no clue what all this is, and I'm starting to wonder whether that's maybe the best way to understand it: to wonder, and to not understand it. ...

 

So there is just this mysterious awareness?

Edited December 17, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes