Zhan Zhuang

[寒月 Hanyue]

Well I can not manage to standing practices for longer than 2-3 minutes. Deep pain in my feet begins very soon thereafter.

 

Which is why I wondered elsewhere if standing for such a short amount would do me any good at all or if it just amounted to isometrics as so many Zhan Zhuang practitioners maintain it is without a personal teacher.

 

I don't know of any medical studies that say that standing for 2-3 minutes delivers any health benefits for such short amounts of time but does it do anything energy or Qi-wise?

 

Re-training the body to allow the weight to transfer through it to the ground can start with small stands of only a few minutes. It is certainly better than not standing at all. Be sensible, and together with other practices as the body opens etc you will find you can stand longer. You have to cater the practice to the person in front of you. Many say you need to stand for 'X' minimum time, my teacher has found his work in hospitals shows different.

 

Feel the crown lightly suspended and relax the toes, arches of the feet, ankles, calves, knees, thighs, hips, lower back. Feel the weight of each and gently encourage them to open and let go, feel the weight internally sink, rather then physically lowering the body. Don't stand with really bent knees at all, just make sure they are not locked. Going from feet to your waist feeling the body falling away from the crown while not losing the sensation of the crown going upwards will probably be long enough for you. After you can feel this more clearly, go through and then feel the body fill up from the ground and feel the support of the earth meeting the sinking of your weight. Although you want to have a light sense of this process through the entire body right from the start. Eventually, as just done with the legs, carry the process more specifically on all the way to the crown.

 

Hope this helps, happy standing

[ChiDragon]

What an assessment...!

From doing Tai Ji for many years, I had built up the muscle tones on my legs. I can perform the ZZ stance for more then 20 minutes without any problem. With Reverse Breathing to maintain balance, I can stand on one leg and kicking around with one leg in the air at least ten times without falling off. BTW There was no pain in my legs whatsoever. I had passed that painful stage on my legs long time ago.

 

Maybe most people don't realize that ZZ is more physical than mental...

 

Edited to add:

To do ZZ, one has the bend the legs to begin with at a durable angle. One has to feel the pain in the muscles, that's why they say "no pain no gain". One must feel the pain in the first few weeks. It was a torture but one must get over this hurdle. If one do something else other than standing with the knees bend, one is not practice Kung Fu or ZZ at all. This is a serious matter how one can take in ZZ or Kung Fu. There is no easy manner...

Edited February 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[JustARandomPanda]

For the record I have and can stand and exercise for hours at a time. I used to be a server who would work extra shifts for long hours at a time. I never saw any improvement in my legs in all that time and certainly none in my feet. The pain in my feet comes whether I exercise or not. I've exercised to aerobic dvds, taken flamenco dancing lessons (including the shoes with the tiny nails in the soles), and do windsprints on occasion too so it's not like I'm some slob who sits on my butt all day everyday for decades on end. I may not LIKE exercise but that doesn't mean I don't do it. I lift weights as I have my own home 45 lb Olympic bar and 300 lbs of plate weights and they do get used.

 

On the job the pain in my feet would be so bad each day after work it could keep me awake at night. Had I had health insurance (which unfortunately I did not as most servers don't) I would have seen a podiatrist.

 

 

However...I'll check out some of the suggestions offered here. Thanks!!!

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

I seem to remember GM Wong Kiew Kit saying that as soon as ZZ becomes painful, its no longer ZZ. Its just an endurance exercise, and as such, is exactly the opposite to ZZ. Other masters have also said the same thing. Yes, there should be a little discomfort. But not pain.

 

After almost two decades of ZZ, I honesty don't think standing in ZZ stances has anything to do with physical strength or fitness. I found the key is to relax. If it starts to hurt, relax more, the more it hurts, the more you relax and UN-TENSE the muscles.

 

Example; I would do the full horse riding stance with thighs parallel to the ground. We all know how bad that can be. At five minutes plus, all my efforts would be on releasing the tension and dissolving any pain/blockages. With enough focus, the legs suddenly become pain free and stop trembling. They feel as though they are empty pipes, with energy flowing within them. Then things get weird, as you can stand in that stance for twenty or thirty minutes.

 

I have legs like an Olympic track cyclist. I can lift 350lbs plus on a leg extension, 1500lbs on a leg press. I raced as a professional for several years. I do not believe this has any bearing on whether I can stand in ZZ for thirty seconds or thirty minutes. If you can stand up and walk, you have all the muscle needed to do ZZ.

 

ZZ is mainly in the mind.

 

The pain in your feet is obviously an existing medical condition, or energy blockage disrupting your connection to the ground. If you can stand up serving all day, I think you are right. You have enough physical fitness.

 

Just my opinion of course. I could be talking nonsense !

[idquest]

Had I had health insurance (which unfortunately I did not as most servers don't) I would have seen a podiatrist.

A doctor might help, but a doctor can really screw up. This is what happened to me when I took prescription prescribed by a medical doctor from the hip pain. That @#$@#@ prescription triggered H Pylori outbread in my stomach and that lead to the whole set of further problems. I became seriously ill because of that rpescription. Only after that I started to do my own research, take acupunture sessions, and massage. Now I'm a bit better.

 

Anyway, the feet pain can be caused by several problems: muscles, tendons, bones. But the most likely reason is bad posture you might have. I suggest you read Pete Egoscue books if you haven't read them yet. If you try hard, you can find them for free.

 

The other avenue I'd suggest is to do research on a diet. I'd suggest that you start with Conquering Arthritis by Barbara Allan. Not because you have arthritis (even though you might have) but because she describes very clearly the elimination diet. After that you might want to read further on different diets. Having a right diet is critical.

 

As for ZZ (in a futile attempt to keep on topic), I'd follow BKF advice: stand how long you can, then sit and keep relaxing. Relaxation is the key.

[ChiDragon]

I have legs like an Olympic track cyclist. I can lift 350lbs plus on a leg extension, 1500lbs on a leg press. I raced as a professional for several years. I do not believe this has any bearing on whether I can stand in ZZ for thirty seconds or thirty minutes. If you can stand up and walk, you have all the muscle needed to do ZZ.

 

ZZ is mainly in the mind.

 

Just my opinion of course. I could be talking nonsense !

Based on you scenario, if everybody can walk and become a Kung Fu master, then all the people who walk can be a Kung Fu master. Hence, ZZ has no significance in still movement; but it is all in the mind rather than making the legs strong....

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Based on you scenario, if everybody can walk and become a Kung Fu master, then all the people who walk can be a Kung Fu master. Hence, ZZ has no significance in still movement; but it is all in the mind rather than making the legs strong....

 

 

I'm sure thats wrong ! But I can't work out why !

[寒月 Hanyue]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but....

 

It can be hard to understand where people are coming from with these things sometimes. Different traditions teach different things but often use the same terms, because they are generic terms.

 

When I chef'd many moons ago I was taught to prepare the chicken breasts 6 different ways by 6 different chef's, yet who all worked at the same place. Now regardless of the fact that it was all meant to be the same, they had their way and damned it if you didn't do it their way when they were there!

 

My point, zhan zhuang is not a singular exercise. No I don't mean different postures. The same posture can be used to practice DIFFERENT exercises, yet to most observers it will appear that it is all the same.

 

I have been taught zhan zhuang in many ways, and had it explained in many ways by different teachers. While some ways I do consider to be incorrect with hindsight, mainly teachers who didn't know fully. It is also true that there are different exercises that can be referred to as zhan zhuang, because they are all trained while standing statically. They train the body, xue, qi, yi, jin etc etc differently and approach doing so in different ways.

 

Martial zhan zhuang is NOT the same as zhan zhuang for "qigong", or Daoist zhan zhuang.

 

Know WHY you need to practice something and know WHAT you need to practice to develop that and progress. Like a prescription. It is easy to muddle things, and many just add to the confusion.

 

Sereneblue; regarding the comments about not standing for long. Even if your aim is to practice martial zhan zhuang (I don't know what yours are, but as an example if they are), you will probably need to practice qigong for your health to open the gates and channels so you can practice the more strenuous zhan zhuang without simply hurting yourself.

 

There are just as many who talk about pain in the legs in zhan zhuang, as there are that say it is wrong. It should be said that the pain is a very specific one, not general pain. And certainly NOT pain in the joints. And whether or not it is actually needed is still debatable, even for martial goals, yet it simply comes back to what zhan zhuang is being used for and why.

 

As for "leg strength" and zhan zhuang being about making the legs strong, well I think this is mis-leading at best. The strength of the muscles is actually what zhan zhuang is trying to get you to stop relying upon. Strong legs muscles used in other movements such as those mentioned by Jeramiah Zeitigeist have little to do with ZZ as they saisd in their post. To reduce ZZ to the legs is incorrect any way you cut it.

 

Best,

[ChiDragon]

We do speak to reveal how much we don't know; or how much we had learned from those who don't know, don't we....???

Edited February 25, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Friend]

We do speak to reveal how much we don't know; or how much we had learned from those who don't know, don't we....???

 

As well we speak about things we observe by doing this things and learn from those who observe the things they exercise. Knowing and not knowing is about had exercised or not exercised. And things are like yin and yang. When you reveal things it always tell what you know and do not know considering important or not important to tell at the moment.

[Protector]

Hey, there are some advantages to pain

 

Do you know why people practice punching in a low and painful horse stance?

 

Not to waste time for once

 

Also, without thinking or directly intending it, it directs chi more into punching

 

Imagine you have a river splitting into two, both rivers are equally strong but if you close of one of them, there will be double the amount of water going into the second one.

[寒月 Hanyue]

We do speak to reveal how much we don't know; or how much we had learned from those who don't know, don't we....???

 

Yes its quite quite sad how many spend years practicing incorrectly and with deluded thinking about these things.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

And things are like yin and yang. When you reveal things it always tell what you know and do not know considering important or not important to tell at the moment.

 

This is worth repeating I feel. What is or or is not said is not always the totality from whence it came. For every truth the opposite can also be said to be true, given the right circumstances. Knowing who is speaking and to whom and why, changes a lot of things.

 

Best,

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but....

 

As for "leg strength" and zhan zhuang being about making the legs strong, well I think this is mis-leading at best. The strength of the muscles is actually what zhan zhuang is trying to get you to stop relying upon. Strong legs muscles used in other movements such as those mentioned by Jeramiah Zeitigeist have little to do with ZZ as they saisd in their post. To reduce ZZ to the legs is incorrect any way you cut it.

 

Best,

 

 

Which is what I was trying to say. ZZ is not about muscles or strength. Its about many other things....clearing energy blockages in the system, relaxing the muscles, mind and intention......but not about strength.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Which is what I was trying to say. ZZ is not about muscles or strength. Its about many other things....but not about strength.

 

Yeah, sometimes it can be a tough crowd

 

用意不用力 yong yi bu yong li. Is what I've primarily been taught and been most interested in.

 

Best,

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Yeah, sometimes it can be a tough crowd

 

用意不用力 yong yi bu yong li. Is what I've primarily been taught and been most interested in.

 

Best,

 

 

:D :D :lol: :lol:

[ChiDragon]

 

用意不用力 yong yi bu yong li. Is what I've primarily been taught and been most interested in.

 

"用意不用力 yong yi bu yong li."

I think that is where most people get stuck on and applied this thinking at the wrong place like Zuan Zhuang.

 

 

FYI...

不用力(bu yong li) it does mean one does not use any body strength at all. It simply means do not exert excessive force more than one has to. For example, when one is at the standing position, one's body automatically exert a force(用力) to support the body weight. However, it no force was exerted(bu yong li), one's body will fall on the ground.

 

The Chinese phrases are very paradoxical, one cannot get their meaning from the direct translation of the characters. There was always a little philosophy behind each phrase. If the little philosophy was ignored, then, the whole significance of meaning was lost.

 

Good luck and best....

Edited February 26, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Please note those who bend their legs, their legs will become stronger than before after a long period of practice.

 

Zuna Zhuang

 

练习站桩有利于人增加力量，强壮身体，发动真气。

Practice Zuan Zhuang will give one the benefit of increasing the body strength(力量), enhance the health of the body. It activates the Natural Chi(真气).

Edited February 26, 2012 by ChiDragon

[JustARandomPanda]

Snowmonki sent me a PM directing me to the following Forum post at BK Frantzis website. I include it here for future Taobums in case they have a similar problem to mine. Looks like I'm not the only one with this problem.

 

 

 

Energy System too Weak for Standing Qi Gong

 

 

I am very encouraged by reading this link as for the first time I feel there might actually be hope someday I can do both BKF's Energy Gates and Zhan Zhuang.

 

Thank you so much for that link Snowmonki!

[寒月 Hanyue]

Looks like I'm not the only one with this problem.

 

I am very encouraged by reading this link as for the first time I feel there might actually be hope someday I can do both BKF's Energy Gates and Zhan Zhuang.

 

Thank you so much for that link Snowmonki!

 

You can always be sure someone else has been there! this is what I see forum's like the Bums being about. I'm glad it was helpful.

 

When I started I had chronic pain that prevented me from even standing up at all on some days. I had had physio's trying to get me to strengthen my legs, but the reality was that if you test the muscles they were perfectly strong. It is very much HOW you utilise that strength and allow the effort to not all be placed upon a part rather than the whole.

 

I'm sure you will do fine with Bruce's neigong, or anything else for that matter.

 

Best

[Friend]

If you can not stand long do squats into the lowest comfortable position up and down.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Interesting article on ZZ from the I-Chuan perspective;

 

http://imos-journal.net/?p=1138

[GreytoWhite]

One of the reasons one trains with eyes open is because the eyes are usually unconsciously connected to the arms and neck. Usually a teacher who does "eye training" will have a more martial focus. When you remove the connection of your eye movement with body movement you telegraph your intent less than you would had you not trained your eyes. I think this also has good impact on one's inner alchemy as well. If one is able to look upon something without the body reacting then there is less chance of the mind interfering with what one is looking upon. This article caught my attention recently.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120228114040.htm

[ChiDragon]

One of the reasons one trains with eyes open is because the eyes are usually unconsciously connected to the arms and neck. Usually a teacher who does "eye training" will have a more martial focus. When you remove the connection of your eye movement with body movement you telegraph your intent less than you would had you not trained your eyes. I think this also has good impact on one's inner alchemy as well. If one is able to look upon something without the body reacting then there is less chance of the mind interfering with what one is looking upon. This article caught my attention recently.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120228114040.htm

Very good informative article. The eye movement in sync with the arm movement is accomplished internally by the internal alchemy. The open eye was to detect the external movement around you. It is a matter of how fast can your eyes send a signal to have the brain to respond by sending a signal for the arms to move for counteracting any attack.

 

Closing the eyes during Zhan Zhuang will increase the sensitive for the sense of hearing. However, I do not see with the eyes open in ZZ has any significant benefit as oppose to the eyes close. Of course, this is only my personal opinion.

[Nilo]

My advice is to just stand with knees slightly bent, and wiggle around or do slow sqauts when energy starts to feel difficult, and go back to standing.

 

I call this standing meditation and it has helped me far more than any system of zhan zuhang.