Being Different

[dwai]

http://www.amazon.com/Being-Different-Rajiv-Malhotra/dp/9350291908

 

In the past few years I've been a participant (and prior to that an observer) on TTB, I've noticed a marked lack of awareness of the internal conditioning that many (well-meaning and some not so well-meaning) members have developed (as a process of being part of a socio-cultural group(s)). That by itself is not a problem, but the problem arises when these people try and employ their native "lenses" to study something that doesn't fit into that framework. Eg, Westerns studying Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism. This results in a few things:

 

a) the student learns quickly enough to let go of his/her native tendencies (intellectual, cognitive etc) and re-learns the process in the "language" of that which he/she is studying.

the student learns a particular tradition and is deeply conflicted in being able to successfully reconcile that with his/her native perspective.

c) the student learns a particular tradition (or more) and can disengage the part of their intellectual process to be able to understand the tradition but as soon as they revert back to their native system they feel conflicted and end up appropriating those portions of the "other" that they have learnt (the parts that are in coherence with their native system) while rejecting those parts that are in conflict (often at the risk of trying to eliminate the very traditions they have studied and creating/rebranding the parts of the system they think are applicable in their native culture).

 

This book is probably the best book in the past 100 years, that has clearly exposed this paradox in terms of Indian (Indic) and Western modes of thought. I would strongly recommend reading the book. While many portions of it might seem outrageous to some of you, I suspect that the process of reading and understanding what's in the book will help each and every one of you a better Daoist, a better Buddhist, a better Vedantin/Hindu (fill in the blanks as you need).

 

I hope you find it as enlightening and refreshingly honest as I did.

 

Best,

 

Dwai

[ChiDragon]

Very wisely said................

[eternalnoob]

Very wisely said................

 

*randomly turns you into a tree*

[ChiDragon]

A tree with many branches and offshoots....???

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just in response to the OP, since I haven't read the book:

 

Why should someone reject something they already know just because the new "system" doesn't acknowledge it? Naturally, people will take the best of both and do what they want to do. It's like the musical approach to spirituality: take some Classical harmony, Soul vocals, and whatever else, and do what you know.

 

It insults the intelligence of every reader to say they ought to toss everything out just because the new "system" doesn't recognize it. Keep an open mind, obviously, but keep your mind too! What you stand to gain is an even richer and fuller picture of what everyone is trying to describe from their own side of the mountain.

 

Maybe I'm slightly misunderstanding the intent of your statement.. not sure...

Edited December 20, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dwai]

Just in response to the OP, since I haven't read the book:

 

Why should someone reject something they already know just because the new "system" doesn't acknowledge it? Naturally, people will take the best of both and do what they want to do. It's like the musical approach to spirituality: take some Classical harmony, Soul vocals, and whatever else, and do what you know.

 

It insults the intelligence of every reader to say they ought to toss everything out just because the new "system" doesn't recognize it. Keep an open mind, obviously, but keep your mind too! What you stand to gain is an even richer and fuller picture of what everyone is trying to describe from their own side of the mountain.

 

Maybe I'm slightly misunderstanding the intent of your statement.. not sure...

Not sure you understood what I implied. The "original" framework and the new framework are radically different and acquisition of knowledge within the context of one is not possible through the other. There is no need to reject the old for everything...only to reject it for lerning the new. Otherwise you will find conflicted individuals and appropritions and rebranded shit being sold as "new" breakthroughs in spirituality...you only have to look at the latest fad on ttb to kow what is being referred to.

[Aaron]

This is a topic that seems to pop up now and again. I used to have a strong bias against those people who believed that Westerners were incapable of understanding the deeper meanings of Eastern philosophy without some form of indoctrination or deprogramming. In my opinion many of the teachings in Eastern philosophy don't require any real knowledge of Eastern society, so long as one is open to the ideas and can view it through a lens that is not colored by their own religious background, but even then I think the gist carries over. I guess my question these days is why is it so important for a someone to view things in their original context? Is it so wrong for someone to perceive Buddha as being Christlike or the Tao Teh Ching to be inspired by God? I'm not saying I believe these things, but I have softened my position on this topic a great deal since I first started running across this topic a few years back. In my own opinion it's important to remember one's own cultural identity (since that identity is the basis for examining who they are) and that one should not be required to erase that in order to understand another philosophy. If a philosophy does require this, then one has to question the merits of that philosophy on a universal scale.

 

Aaron

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Not sure you understood what I implied. The "original" framework and the new framework are radically different and acquisition of knowledge within the context of one is not possible through the other. There is no need to reject the old for everything...only to reject it for lerning the new. Otherwise you will find conflicted individuals and appropritions and rebranded shit being sold as "new" breakthroughs in spirituality...you only have to look at the latest fad on ttb to kow what is being referred to.

 

Well, to each there own. I just think that things are not always as they appear, so it's important not to just assume they are different merely because of a name. Sure, they might be different, but they might not be.

[Jetsun]

Philosophically and intellectually Westerners can understand Eastern ideas just as well as anyone, the problem I think comes when you try to apply those teachings to your own development as they may not be suited to your psychological/developmental state which is highly culturally influenced. Which is why I think the Buddhist concept of skillful means is so important and it is best to find a teacher who understands the blockages which come from your culture.

[dwai]

This is a topic that seems to pop up now and again. I used to have a strong bias against those people who believed that Westerners were incapable of understanding the deeper meanings of Eastern philosophy without some form of indoctrination or deprogramming. In my opinion many of the teachings in Eastern philosophy don't require any real knowledge of Eastern society, so long as one is open to the ideas and can view it through a lens that is not colored by their own religious background, but even then I think the gist carries over. I guess my question these days is why is it so important for a someone to view things in their original context? Is it so wrong for someone to perceive Buddha as being Christlike or the Tao Teh Ching to be inspired by God? I'm not saying I believe these things, but I have softened my position on this topic a great deal since I first started running across this topic a few years back. In my own opinion it's important to remember one's own cultural identity (since that identity is the basis for examining who they are) and that one should not be required to erase that in order to understand another philosophy. If a philosophy does require this, then one has to question the merits of that philosophy on a universal scale.

 

Aaron

 

Aaron,

 

Please read the book. It challenges the very premise of Universalism as defined through the Western paradigm and explains how/why it is inextricably intertwined with religious ideology of the West (ie the abrahamic system). The main point understand is that from an Eastern perspective, the socio-cultural background from which these systems arose, there is an easier process of accepting/understanding each other as opposed to the Western perspective, which is radically different. If I have to write this out in detail, I'll have to reproduce the entire book here, which is kind of silly, since I cannot do better justice to the topic than the author has in his book (through decades of meticulous research).

 

I know the author personally (and have worked with him on a project in the past) and he is a genuine individual.

 

To make an analogy, try and understand it as the difference between quantum mechanics and classical newtonian mechanics. These are radically different and one cannot understand quantum mechanics through classical lens and classical mechanics through the quantum lens.

[dwai]

Well, to each there own. I just think that things are not always as they appear, so it's important not to just assume they are different merely because of a name. Sure, they might be different, but they might not be.

 

Give the book a shot. I suspect that you will be surprised. I had a similar reaction to the topic when I was first introduced to it...but after considerable thought, it makes sense (and a lot of confusing things I've encountered make sense too, in retrospect).

[dwai]

Philosophically and intellectually Westerners can understand Eastern ideas just as well as anyone, the problem I think comes when you try to apply those teachings to your own development as they may not be suited to your psychological/developmental state which is highly culturally influenced. Which is why I think the Buddhist concept of skillful means is so important and it is best to find a teacher who understands the blockages which come from your culture.

 

I think your point is very valid but the fact of the matter is that it is applicable to all the Eastern systems. I think vice versa is very different, because of the colonialism history (in most Eastern nations).

[Patrick Brown]

[dwai]

I'm too drunk to correspond but, I'm different. So how do we deal with being fish out of water? When I get a chance I will just revel in my difference and say fuck the rest! I think that's the crux of it. Hey I pretty much have been doing that anyway which is why people think I'm a Looney!

 

I'm not a Looney I'm just following in the footsteps of the great man/woman.

 

First part is great...second part....hmm....I'm not so sure it's for me (though at times I'm inclined to say so as well).

[Patrick Brown]

First part is great...second part....hmm....I'm not so sure it's for me (though at times I'm inclined to say so as well).

 

I have no dresses but I do have long hair!

 

 

[Patrick Brown]

It's longer than this:

[suninmyeyes]

I agree with Jetsun , but would say that it also posible to have a teacher from a different culture - if that person is truly open: mentally and spiritually and with deep wisdom.

Which is very rare anywhere in the world.

 

As to East and West and ability to (mis)understand each other. I think open mind and sincere desire to harmonise ourselves more as citisens of the earth and this universe is necessary on both sides and this will enable us to learn about each other deeply enough to understand each others ways and coexist in Wisdom. This is valid for individual as well as national level.

As cultural differences are real and can be an obstacle and a source of much misunderstanding.

If we try and harmonise there is bound to be fusions and new ways of adopting mentally, spiritually , emotionally and physically might have to be found. As well as relying on the different sets of tools than what has previously proven to work wonders .

This is actually already happening.

What dwai said in one of the responses about rebranded shit, well nothing wrong with that either .It has its place and may have a potentional to reach out and help someone to make sense out of their life. It is natural development of things, nothing lasts forever , not even traditional teachings and knowledge.

It is all changing.

However wisdom is different.

[dwai]

I agree with Jetsun , but would say that it also posible to have a teacher from a different culture - if that person is truly open: mentally and spiritually and with deep wisdom.

Which is very rare anywhere in the world.

 

As to East and West and ability to (mis)understand each other. I think open mind and sincere desire to harmonise ourselves more as citisens of the earth and this universe is necessary on both sides and this will enable us to learn about each other deeply enough to understand each others ways and coexist in Wisdom. This is valid for individual as well as national level.

 

This is not an issue in the secular sense. It becomes problematic in the esoteric realm. I've encountered many many such individuals who start off with best of intentions and end up doing a u-turn (or worse, get deluded into thinking they have reached nirvana or some other such thing) because of a lack of context and inability to stop using their "old lens". The opposite is far less and those are indeed special individuals who do manage to pull it off. It takes maturity and a good understanding of the processes that govern our thinking and behaviors.

 

As cultural differences are real and can be an obstacle and a source of much misunderstanding.

If we try and harmonise there is bound to be fusions and new ways of adopting mentally, spiritually , emotionally and physically might have to be found. As well as relying on the different sets of tools than what has previously proven to work wonders .

This is actually already happening.

 

I think most of what is happening is simply appropriation of the original systems and re-creation of some weird hodge-podge. An example of a good way to transmit the knowledge is how Bruce Frantzis does it. He gives full credit to his teachers, quotes the original traditions from where he is developing his knowledge. He also acknowledges the portions where his interpretations are derived from his cultural background. There is no duplicity, confusion or dichotomy.

 

What dwai said in one of the responses about rebranded shit, well nothing wrong with that either .It has its place and may have a potentional to reach out and help someone to make sense out of their life. It is natural development of things, nothing lasts forever , not even traditional teachings and knowledge.

It is all changing.

However wisdom is different.

 

Indeed nothing lasts for ever and if there's something worthwhile to add to it, do so by all means. But don't denigrate the system which has given you much and definitely don't try and obfuscate the source as a means of greater marketability. Many such "teachers" try and rationalize the phenomenon of hostile appropriation by stating "at the end, it's the wisdom that matters". But the means matter too...not just the end.

 

 

PS. I am not referring to you Sun...its just a generalization based on observations. Eg: aberrations such as Christian Yoga, Jewish Yoga, etc. Whatever does that even mean?!? By stripping the tradition from Yoga, you get only the shell with no substance. While it can provide physical exercise, it won't do anything substantial from the esoteric angle. Here's an example of the level of ignorance that drives this phenomenon -- http://praisemoves.c...native-to-yoga/

 

[suninmyeyes]

Morning Dwai ,

This is not an issue in the secular sense. It becomes problematic in the esoteric realm. I've encountered many many such individuals who start off with best of intentions and end up doing a u-turn (or worse, get deluded into thinking they have reached nirvana or some other such thing) because of a lack of context and inability to stop using their "old lens". The opposite is far less and those are indeed special individuals who do manage to pull it off. It takes maturity and a good understanding of the processes that govern our thinking and behaviors.

I was refering to any sense including the esoteric in the previous post.

I too have met many individuals who get deluded into thinking that they have reached nirvana . We just need to look at the many spiritual teachers (from all around the globe) state today pressing the same claim and draw conclusions.

 

I think most of what is happening is simply appropriation of the original systems and re-creation of some weird hodge-podge. An example of a good way to transmit the knowledge is how Bruce Frantzis does it. He gives full credit to his teachers, quotes the original traditions from where he is developing his knowledge. He also acknowledges the portions where his interpretations are derived from his cultural background. There is no duplicity, confusion or dichotomy.

We are metamorphosasing , it may look wierd , but that will always remain the fact and adopting to what is happening and appropriate nowdays.

I agree that it is decent to give credit and it is right to state unsatisfaction about not crediting teachers , quotes, techniques..

At the same time what is good about the emergence of 'the wierd hodge-podge'is that the strong boundaries of 'my culture'(belonging to a certain country) might become something like 'our human culture' more often bringing on deeper connections and understanding.

This is already happening too still on small scale, if we just look for example slavery and terrible injustices done , little hodge podging later things are better , people are slowly sobering up to the fact that we are all humans. Well some are, but I am positive.

 

Indeed nothing lasts for ever and if there's something worthwhile to add to it, do so by all means. But don't denigrate the system which has given you much and definitely don't try and obfuscate the source as a means of greater marketability. Many such "teachers" try and rationalize the phenomenon of hostile appropriation by stating "at the end, it's the wisdom that matters". But the means matter too...not just the end.

 

PS. I am not referring to you Sun...its just a generalization based on observations. Eg: aberrations such as Christian Yoga, Jewish Yoga, etc. Whatever does that even mean?!? By stripping the tradition from Yoga, you get only the shell with no substance. While it can provide physical exercise, it won't do anything substantial from the esoteric angle. Here's an example of the level of ignorance that drives this phenomenon -- http://praisemoves.com/about-us/why-a-christian-alternative-to-yoga/

 

Yes this stuff is disrespectful in some ways and downright ridicules ,as Yoga is system of philosophy and I am suprised how so little people get this.

On the other side it is obvious that something good came out of it ,even if it is on the level of placebo effect as it works for some to certain extent and might prode people into further explorations.

Means do matter absolutley , but this can become a problem if one claims that my matterning more appropriate for 'you', however unfair this may look sometimes.

It is worthwhile mentioning due to the original post that a lot similar stuff happens in the countries where certain traditions originate from in Asia, they just have a different flavour due to the different cultural conditioning , but same amount of misunderstanding and difficulties on the path but with different twist to it. Having family that lives there for long time and having lived there myself for 4 years I have witnessed it first hand.

PS

There is this book that I just cant remeber the name of unfortunatley(it is not a great book either, but has some interesting points) . It is autobiographical and what is most intersting about it is how the writer who is Indian tells how Sivananada started to'kill' yoga in a way by the way he reperesented it etc. It is an interesting point of view becouse authentic yogic training is so different than what people would ever imagine. Ill post a link if I remeber the name of the book.

 

Edited December 21, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[dwai]

Morning Dwai ,

 

 

Hi Sun,

 

Yes this stuff is disrespectful in some ways and downright ridicules ,as Yoga is system of philosophy and I am suprised how so little people get this.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(243, 249, 246); ">On the other side it is obvious that something good came out of it ,even if it is on the level of placebo effect as it works for some to certain extent and might prode people into further explorations.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(243, 249, 246); ">Means do matter absolutley , but this can become a problem if one claims that my matterning more appropriate for 'you', however unfair this may look sometimes. <br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(243, 249, 246); ">It is worthwhile mentioning due to the original post that a lot similar stuff happens in the countries where certain traditions originate from in Asia, they just have a different flavour due to the different cultural conditioning , but same amount of misunderstanding and difficulties on the path but with different twist to it. Having family that lives there for long time and having lived there myself for 4 years I have witnessed it first hand

 

 

Does something good really come from it? Does it serve any purpose to let people do the physical aspect and substitute the theory behind the practical with something else? How would it be if we did experiments with the LHC but tried to apply Newtonian mechanics theory instead of quantum mechanics? I know it's a bit of polemic but the analogy is apt.

 

[JustARandomPanda]

Hi Dwai

 

Well you convinced me to get the book. Amazon was out of copies so I had to get one from an Amazon Reseller. Since it's so close to Xmas I don't expect to receive the book until next year. Once I get it I'll dive in and maybe give a review of it once I'm finished.

 

Anyway...kinda along the lines of what you were discussing.

 

Have you noticed how most people in the West associate Tantra with sex? When I first started out that's what I thought too. So it surprised me to find out out the majority of Tantra practices have nothing whatsoever to do with sex.

 

But try telling that to people who are not into inner alchemy, meditation, etc. Once they realize most Tantra is not sexual they lose all interest in it or ignore it completely. Now when I see "tantra" books in the sex section of a bookstore I just sigh and walk on by.

 

Kind of a bummer to see something that is meant to help someone become a better person get so dumbed down and marketed as something it was never really intended to be.

[suninmyeyes]

Hi Sun,

 

Does something good really come from it? Does it serve any purpose to let people do the physical aspect and substitute the theory behind the practical with something else? How would it be if we did experiments with the LHC but tried to apply Newtonian mechanics theory instead of quantum mechanics? I know it's a bit of polemic but the analogy is apt.

What about numerous reports of people doing yoga and claiming health benefits all around the world? Most of that yoga - almost all is actually not yoga at all.

The thing is a lot of yogic techniques are so watered down or fused with some other techniques and made available to public ,which is the reason we know about them . Otherwise I might have never heard of it and might have not been on yogic path myself.

Link with Christian yoga you have posted previousley did almost give me headache , but I stand behind my opinion that there is a possibility that something good may come out of it too. Maybe some little seed of something fruitfull may have been planted somwhere.

What also comes to my mind right now is some Christian thinkers( father Bede Griffits for example)that a friend introduced me to influenced by Ramana Maharishi which had suprisingly good results(IMO).

 

As you have probably gathered already I disagree with your analogy.

sun

Edited December 22, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[voidisyinyang]

This is not an issue in the secular sense. It becomes problematic in the esoteric realm. I've encountered many many such individuals who start off with best of intentions and end up doing a u-turn (or worse, get deluded into thinking they have reached nirvana or some other such thing) because of a lack of context and inability to stop using their "old lens". The opposite is far less and those are indeed special individuals who do manage to pull it off. It takes maturity and a good understanding of the processes that govern our thinking and behaviors.

 

 

 

I think most of what is happening is simply appropriation of the original systems and re-creation of some weird hodge-podge. An example of a good way to transmit the knowledge is how Bruce Frantzis does it. He gives full credit to his teachers, quotes the original traditions from where he is developing his knowledge. He also acknowledges the portions where his interpretations are derived from his cultural background. There is no duplicity, confusion or dichotomy.

 

 

 

Indeed nothing lasts for ever and if there's something worthwhile to add to it, do so by all means. But don't denigrate the system which has given you much and definitely don't try and obfuscate the source as a means of greater marketability. Many such "teachers" try and rationalize the phenomenon of hostile appropriation by stating "at the end, it's the wisdom that matters". But the means matter too...not just the end.

 

 

PS. I am not referring to you Sun...its just a generalization based on observations. Eg: aberrations such as Christian Yoga, Jewish Yoga, etc. Whatever does that even mean?!? By stripping the tradition from Yoga, you get only the shell with no substance. While it can provide physical exercise, it won't do anything substantial from the esoteric angle. Here's an example of the level of ignorance that drives this phenomenon -- http://praisemoves.com/about-us/why-a-christian-alternative-to-yoga/

 

 

Creepy Christian yoga link to be sure. Have you read this book? Fascinating expose http://www.amazon.com/Gita-As-Was-Rediscovering-Bhagavadgita/product-reviews/0812690249/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

[Seth Ananda]

Hi Dwai

 

Well you convinced me to get the book. Amazon was out of copies so I had to get one from an Amazon Reseller. Since it's so close to Xmas I don't expect to receive the book until next year. Once I get it I'll dive in and maybe give a review of it once I'm finished.

 

Anyway...kinda along the lines of what you were discussing.

 

Have you noticed how most people in the West associate Tantra with sex? When I first started out that's what I thought too. So it surprised me to find out out the majority of Tantra practices have nothing whatsoever to do with sex.

 

But try telling that to people who are not into inner alchemy, meditation, etc. Once they realize most Tantra is not sexual they lose all interest in it or ignore it completely. Now when I see "tantra" books in the sex section of a bookstore I just sigh and walk on by.

 

Kind of a bummer to see something that is meant to help someone become a better person get so dumbed down and marketed as something it was never really intended to be.

 

Lol, Try teaching the subject. To keep a class of new people Interested, you need to inject something sexual into the subject matter every hour or so... All to get people to try some meditation or some actual Tantra... I guess I kind of run by the idea of give them what they ask for till they want what you wish to offer. Now I finally have people who turn up and want something deeper...

[voidisyinyang]

Lol, Try teaching the subject. To keep a class of new people Interested, you need to inject something sexual into the subject matter every hour or so... All to get people to try some meditation or some actual Tantra... I guess I kind of run by the idea of give them what they ask for till they want what you wish to offer. Now I finally have people who turn up and want something deeper...

 

What gets me is when people with a lower chakra electromagnetic blockage talk to me and then as the light goes out of my eyes into them their lower chakra blockage drags my energy down and the chi gets deconverted to sex fluids. haha. So then I have to sit in full lotus to reverse it. Normally I sit in full lotus pre-emptively as defense but then when I am eating I like to take a break.... oh well. So much for modernity. This stuff has a long history -- Tantra misunderstood in the West http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeIII/HTML/Oom.html