What is Taoism (Daoism)?

[Lao Tzu]

[Patrick Brown]

The True Self is beyond the human body, and spiritual. Human body is just a dwelling place for the spirit. Finding the True Self is the primary way which can lead one to the world of Dao. People, who live in the Dao, will stay away from suffering, and enjoy happiness.

No!

 

and

 

Yes!

 

 

[Marblehead]

Taoism is a philosophy of life (living).

 

Yes, it is also a religion.

[Lao Tzu]

Taoism is a philosophy of life (living).

 

Yes, it is also a religion.

The core of a religion is the philosophy.

The religion just a server to a philosophy.

[ChiDragon]

The core of a religion is the philosophy.

The religion just a server to a philosophy.

The core of the religion is part of LaoTze's philosophy.

The religion just a server to a part of life.

[Protector]

Read the first line again

http://taotechingme.com/chapter-1-the-tao-that-can-be-told-2

[ChiDragon]

Read the first line again

http://taotechingme.com/chapter-1-the-tao-that-can-be-told-2

How about reading the rest of the lines and all the chapters with a better translation...

 

Shall we deny LaoTze's philosophy, at this point in time, by throwing his foot into his mouth...???

Edited December 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Lao Tzu]

The core of the religion is part of LaoTze's philosophy.

The religion just a server to a part of life.

The core of the Taoism religion is LaoTze's philosophy.

The religion is a server to its philosophy.

The philosophy is a server to a life.

[Protector]

How about reading the rest of the lines and all the chapters with a better translation...

 

Fine, I'll go read your translation

[ChiDragon]

The core of the Taoism religion is LaoTze's philosophy.

The religion is a server to its philosophy.

The philosophy is a server to a life.

 

The philosophy involves politics and the religion doesn't....

[Lao Tzu]

The philosophy involves politics and the religion doesn't....

I think the philosophy can involve everything...

But when we talk about the difference between philosophy and religion. We can see philosophy is more about the theory, and religion is more about a delivery system for the theory.

[ChiDragon]

The intended philosophy of LaoTze was not a delivery system for the theory to be a religion. It was pure philosophy. Period.

 

It was how people want to interpret it and turn it into a religion. It was not LaoTze's intention for the TTC to be the dogma of the Tao religion.

Edited December 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Lao Tzu]

The intended philosophy of LaoTze was not a delivery system for the theory to be a religion. It was pure philosophy. Period.

Sure!

When a theory is wanted to be deliverd to more people, a religion is born.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, a religion was only an offshoot of the philosophy but it was never the original philosophy itself. I'm sure you know the difference between 道家 and 道教.

 

May I ask how would you translate or interpret Chapter One of the Tao Te Ching in your own words as a native without any foreign influence....???

Edited December 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Lao Tzu]

Yes, a religion was only an offshoot of the philosophy but it was never the original philosophy itself.

 

May I ask how would you translate or interpret Chapter One of the Tao Te Ching in your own words....???

道可道，非常道；名可名，非常名。无，名天地之始；有，名万物之母。故常无，欲以观其妙；常有，欲以观其徼。此两者同出而异名，同谓之玄，玄之又玄，众妙之门。

 

Dao, you can try to use language to express it, but the language is limited, is not the real self of the Dao; things in the world, can give it a name, but the name itself has not been the object. "Wu"(Nothing), that is, the status before the first world; "You"(something) is the basic properties of all things. So, keep the state of nothingness, you can see the wonders before the material produced; return to something, you can see the material manifestations. "Wu" and "You", both of which are performance of Dao, in different forms, different name. Both are known as the "mysterious", "Wu" and "You" are swithing all the time, which is the fundamental law of the universe.

[Lao Tzu]

I am trying to translate, sorry about my English

[julianlaboy]

I believe that the concepts "religion" [religare or union with some divinity or divine power] and "philosophy" [love of reflection] are Western concepts. As such, they are inadequate as a description of an Eastern perspective, since they come with lots of connotations that do not hold for Eastern contexts. The problem is that it is really difficult, if not impossible, to be "outside" of our contexts. [i am assuming that almost everyone here come from Western perspectives]. So, if we cannot escape this, then Taoism can be both a religion and a philosophy. Coming from Western perspectives, my experience studying these topics taught me that what we look for, we find (Psychology calls it "priming").

 

[Edit] Forgot to mention: Exceptions from Western perspectives may be ChiDragon and LaoTzu, from this forum.

 

What do you both think of my opinions expressed here?

Edited December 20, 2011 by julianlaboy

[ChiDragon]

道可道，非常道；名可名，非常名。无，名天地之始；有，名万物之母。故常无，欲以观其妙；常有，欲以观其徼。此两者同出而异名，同谓之玄，玄之又玄，众妙之门。

 

Dao, you can try to use language to express it, but the language is limited, is not the real self of the Dao; things in the world, can give it a name, but the name itself has not been the object. "Wu"(Nothing), that is, the status before the first world; "You"(something) is the basic properties of all things. So, keep the state of nothingness, you can see the wonders before the material produced; return to something, you can see the material manifestations. "Wu" and "You", both of which are performance of Dao, in different forms, different name. Both are known as the "mysterious", "Wu" and "You" are swithing all the time, which is the fundamental law of the universe.

 

Let's compare notes. I think your translation and interpretation are close. At least you are using the received version with the proper punctuations....

 

Here is my final translation after so many years working on it.

Chapter 1

1. 道可道，非常道。

2. 名可名，非常名。

3. 無,名天地之始。

4. 有,名萬物之母。

5. 故常無,欲以觀其妙。

6. 常有,欲以觀其徼。

7. 此兩者同出而異名，

8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，

9. 眾妙之門。

 

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,

8. Both are regarded as fathomless; the most mysterious of the mysterious;

9. The gate of all changes.

Edited December 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1. I believe that the concepts "religion" [religare or union with some divinity or divine power] and "philosophy" [love of reflection] are Western concepts.

 

2. As such, they are inadequate as a description of an Eastern perspective, since they come with lots of connotations that do not hold for Eastern contexts. The problem is that it is really difficult, if not impossible, to be "outside" of our contexts. [i am assuming that almost everyone here come from Western perspectives].

 

3. So, if we cannot escape this, then Taoism can be both a religion and a philosophy. Coming from Western perspectives, my experience studying these topics taught me that what we look for, we find (Psychology calls it "priming").

 

[Edit] Forgot to mention: Exceptions from Western perspectives may be ChiDragon and LaoTzu, from this forum.

 

What do you both think of my opinions expressed here?

 

1. I believe the concepts about religion and philosophy you had mentioned do apply to Western and Eastern. e.g., The philosophy in the Tao Te Ching has lots of love and compassion in quite a few Chapters.

 

2. The difference in perspectives was only the cultural difference in thinking. Otherwise, the intention of the philosophies are the same for love and compassion.

 

3. Taoism contains two ideas, philosophy and religion, as a whole in Western thinking. In Eastern thinking, religion and philosophy are distinguished with two separated entities. With the two terms 道家(Taojia, Tao philosopher) and 道教(Taojiao, Tao religion), right away we'll know what the counterpart was talking about with less confusion.

Edited December 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Taoism contains two ideas, philosophy and religion, as a whole in Western thinking. In Eastern thinking, religion and philosophy are distinguished with two separated entities. With the two terms 道家(Taojia, Tao philosopher) and 道教(Taojiao, Tao religion), right away we'll know what the counterpart was talking about with less confusion.

The problem with this is that this is actually a Western idea (invention); Eastern thinking tends to not distinguish them so much. This has been an academic debate for at least 40 years.

 

Kirkland has written quite a bit about it but here is one example:

http://kirkland.myweb.uga.edu/rk/pdf/pubs/VARIETIES.pdf

[ChiDragon]

The problem with this is that this is actually a Western idea (invention); Eastern thinking tends to not distinguish them so much. This has been an academic debate for at least 40 years.

 

Kirkland has written quite a bit about it but here is one example:

http://kirkland.myweb.uga.edu/rk/pdf/pubs/VARIETIES.pdf

One must understand that the existence of the two terms 道家(Taojia, Tao philosopher) and 道教(Taojiao, Tao religion) and go deep into the Chinese language and cultural background in order to explain what Taoism is. The Western term of Taoism does not distinguish explicitly what Taoism is. Every time when Taoism was mentioned, one must go into deep details to point out the difference in philosophy and religion.

[dawei]

Every time when Taoism was mentioned, one must go into deep details to point out the difference in philosophy and religion.

It seems most times when Taoism is mentioned its pre-Lao Zi stage is rarely mentioned which was neither philosophy nor religion... if we keep going deeper they will eventually dissolve back to that state of oneness.

 

For anyone interested in the topic, further reading:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/19538-difference-between-dao-jiao-and-dao-jia/

[ChiDragon]

Lao Tzu....

May I hear your side of the story on Chapter Six.....???

Would you please translate it in your own words again....??? xie xie(thanks)...!!!

[julianlaboy]

It seems most times when Taoism is mentioned its pre-Lao Zi stage is rarely mentioned which was neither philosophy nor religion... if we keep going deeper they will eventually dissolve back to that state of oneness.

 

Exactly. Taoism is religion, philosophy, politics, and whatever we now see fit. That's the beauty of traditional Eastern perspectives: they believe so much in contexts and circumstances that absolute definitions are impossible to make. Because of that we do see a Chinese character for philosophy and another for religion. We may translate some characters with such concepts, but that's because of our limited arsenal of metaphors and concepts, especially we who translate from Western perspectives. I still sustain my belief that classical Taoism (Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu or other pre-Han dynasty thinkers) did not distinguished between religion and philosophy. They had a much more united way of life.

[Lao Tzu]

Lao Tzu....

May I hear your side of the story on Chapter Six.....???

Would you please translate it in your own words again....??? xie xie(thanks)...!!!

谷神不死,是谓玄牝。玄牝之门，是谓天地根。绵绵若存，用之不勤。

A spirit can not die, this is called "XuanPin". The door of XuanPin, is called "root of the world". It seems exist there, being used without mind.

 

I have to mention that LaoZi didn't tell us the Dao clearly in TTC.

So TTC is a book which is very difficult to grasp the meaning of it.

So I suggest to spend more time on other books in the beginning, coming back onto TTC later.