Compassion and Suffering 2.0

[Aaron]

I'm at a crossroads these days in regards to compassion. About a year ago I started a thread about the topic with a very idealistic approach to what I thought compassion was. In hindsight, my experiences in the last year have called into question many of those conceptions in regards to what kind of compassion I should aspire to.

 

I find these days that I am not so much a humanist anymore. My notion of compassion does not arise from the idea that empathy for another person, my own individual feelings towards another, should be the motivation, but rather that sympathy, the knowledge that I am connected to everyone and everything on an intimate level, should be the motivation. As a result of viewing compassion in this way I can see another person's suffering as my own suffering, even if I'm not necessarily feeling it empathetically. That's not to say that suffering doesn't move me on a personal level occasionally, but rather that I understand that empathy alone isn't sufficient to drive someone towards action in many instances, that what it takes for someone to become compassionate in a higher sense is the realization of one's connection to others. This realization on an intellectual level may inspire empathy, but on an experiential level I have found that the driving force seems less influenced by empathy and more based on a dispassionate notion of easing suffering, simply because one can understand the nature of suffering.

 

Anyways, I don't want to go too deeply into the topic, rather I'd like to hear other people's opinions regarding it. The topics that I have been most drawn to investigate on a personal level these days are compassion, the nature of suffering, and how our perception of the world causes suffering to occur. If anyone would like to expound on these as well, please feel free.

 

Aaron

Edited December 20, 2011 by Twinner

[zerostao]

imo you are way over thinking this thing.

i am not qualified to speak about suffering , maybe i have had a few brief moments one could call suffering

but i really cant recall any. do i recognize suffering in others? yes,

and i find myself standing on sympathetic ground. it has no intellectual basis at all.

why look for motivation?

why does everything need to be neatly categorized into its "proper" box?

reality is largely intuitive.

[Aaron]

imo you are way over thinking this thing.

i am not qualified to speak about suffering , maybe i have had a few brief moments one could call suffering

but i really cant recall any. do i recognize suffering in others? yes,

and i find myself standing on sympathetic ground. it has no intellectual basis at all.

why look for motivation?

why does everything need to be neatly categorized into its "proper" box?

reality is largely intuitive.

 

I disagree. I think I could put much more thought than four or five sentences into this if I wanted. In fact I think what I have said is a gross oversimplification, but so be it. The first thing I'd like to point out is that the fact that you said you found yourself standing on sympathetic ground implies an intellectual basis. Compassion without intellectualism doesn't really exist after all. So what you say here, for my purposes has no value, rather it's the driving force behind the intellectual intent that I find important and want to explore further.

 

Also, reality is only largely intuitive for those people who are intuitive thinkers, for logical (sensing) thinkers, it's actually analytical and experiential, but that's neither here nor there. Remember reality is only how you perceive it to be, so labeling your experience to be the actual experience can be problematic.

 

I think your apparent lack of understanding of the differences between sympathetic and empathetic compassion (which is what I feel you are talking about) is probably due to the fact that you haven't experienced much suffering. I think it is very difficult for one to come to an understanding of the nature of suffering, without also experiencing it.

 

 

Aaron

Edited December 20, 2011 by Twinner

[Jetsun]

In terms of what you can do or what action you can take to help another with their suffering personally from my own experience I have found those people who are just present with you and your problems without either running away or trying to "fix" you are the most helpful and compassionate. What action can you really take to help another? sometimes it is obvious of course if someone needs feeding give them food, but in general I have come to understand that just holding the wish that another be free from their suffering generates a lot of compassion and is enough, trying to "fix" another persons personal suffering usually causes more problems than it solves.

[zerostao]

"Compassion without intellectualism doesn't really exist after all. " really?

 

"I think your apparent lack of understanding of the differences between sympathetic and empathetic compassion (which is what I feel you are talking about) is probably due to the fact that you haven't experienced much suffering. I think it is very difficult for one to come to an understanding of the nature of suffering, without also experiencing"

i do sense your suffering and i have sympathy for you.

[C T]

 

post self-destructed.

Edited December 20, 2011 by C T

[Everything]

Anyways, I don't want to go too deeply into the topic, rather I'd like to hear other people's opinions regarding it. The topics that I have been most drawn to investigate on a personal level these days are compassion, the nature of suffering, and how our perception of the world causes suffering to occur. If anyone would like to expound on these as well, please feel free.

 

AaronJ

I have found lately that not only does my state of being move about the entire universe, leaving nothing undone, I have found that my state of being has no intention. The universe is like a mirror.

 

In a sense, don't distinguish yourself from the world and wait for it to give itself to you. Be the world and accept it as you have always been it. Don't wait for the mirror to give you the experience of what you want. You experience it first in your being, then you will reflect it to your self from the outside in, automaticly, effortlessly, without any intention or action, leaving nothing undone. The reflection will eventually come, in one way or another. Especially quickly if you allow it to come and not put expectations on the future and all the little details of how it will come that really are meaningless anyways. Your state of being can reflect in many possible forms and manifestations. Infinite, infact.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Everything

[Aaron]

hello folks,

 

I wanted to address what I feel are the differences between empathy and sympathy, as well as the apparent misunderstanding regarding intellectualism in regards to compassion. For me empathetic compassion is compassion without action, you feel compassion, but you do not act on it. Sympathetic compassion is when you feel compassion and act on it. So when one has suffered a great deal, take the alcoholic in recovery for example, many feel a need to help those alcoholics who are suffering, in most cases asking nothing in return. They do this, in the beginning because it is part of the steps, but many over time do this as a natural reaction to seeing another person suffer. They have developed a sympathetic form of compassion derived from their own experiences.

 

In regards to intellectualism, I understand what Everything and Zerostao are alluding to, but I think it is a misconception to believe that our actions can ever be devoid of thought completely, the only people who act without thought or intent (imo) are people in a coma, and then I'm still a bit skeptical. So long as we interact with this holographic world, we will always interact as the person that exists within it, which requires thought and insight, and a reflection of the past and present (and future), to do otherwise would mean that we are removed from this world. Any notion of oneness that comes does not preclude the understanding that you are still you, even though you may understand on an intellectual or intuitive level, that you are also everything else. However, the knowledge of this, I believe, does engender a deeper understanding of the need for compassion and also inspire a more natural response. In other words your compassion can once again become like that of a child, who responds, not because they feel they are doing something right or wrong, but simply because they want to ease another's suffering. So in that sense one can develop an intuitive compassion, but there is still some intellectuallism (self-ego) that influences it.

 

I've yet to meet anyone who has removed themselves from suffering permanently (simply because in order to exist in this world, one must give themselves over to suffering), but when I do I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

 

Jetsun, I agree with what you have said as well, in the sense that you can't change other people, only yourself, but I also believe that part of sympathetic compassion is making someone aware that you are willing to help them.

 

Anyways I'm off to take a shower. I just got back from riding a bike about a mile uphill... talk about suffering.

 

Aaron

 

edit- CT I would love to hear your input, even if it may be contrary to what I said. Actually that goes for everyone. I am not so set on this belief that someone can't convince me otherwise.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Twinner

[C T]

Learning to develop a compassionate heart is like learning to make anti-venom ~ with a heart directed by compassion, even the most poisonous impulses can potentially be neutralized. This does not mean we have to purposefully put ourselves in harm's way just to prove how compassionate we are, but with the right awareness, it will give us the confidence to know that sometimes, in life, there will be moments of despair, moments which may necessitate traversing dark avenues ~ in these trying times, with compassion as our companion, we need never lose confidence in our own abilities and wisdom, nor fear those of others with shady intents and ignoble motives.

[Jetsun]

I like the way the Dalai Lama describes the relationship between compassion and suffering in that on the fundamental basic level all people want to be happy and avoid suffering, so in that respect we are all the same and can relate to one another from that basic compassionate wish even if you have had little obvious suffering in your own life you can still empathise with any other persons suffering from this level because you have the same wish. If you explore this idea further then it is possible to extend your compassion to almost anyone perhaps even extreme cades like Hitler if you see their motivation came from the same place that they do what they do because they want to be happy and avoid suffering but lack the wisdom to make their wish come true and only create misery for themselves and those around them.

 

But everyone has suffered to certain degrees, when you were a feotus you were warm comfortable and secure, then the first thing you do when you are born is cry out as you enter into the cold hostile world so you have already suffered a loss and pain as your first experience in life, then you have to face the suffering that the world isn't perfect and your parents don't love you completely, etc the suffering goes on and on for all of us, so I don't believe people when they say they haven't suffered so they can't relate to it, I just think those people haven't faced up to their own suffering yet.

[C T]

I like the way the Dalai Lama describes the relationship between compassion and suffering in that on the fundamental basic level all people want to be happy and avoid suffering, so in that respect we are all the same and can relate to one another from that basic compassionate wish even if you have had little obvious suffering in your own life you can still empathise with any other persons suffering from this level because you have the same wish. If you explore this idea further then it is possible to extend your compassion to almost anyone perhaps even extreme cades like Hitler if you see their motivation came from the same place that they do what they do because they want to be happy and avoid suffering but lack the wisdom to make their wish come true and only create misery for themselves and those around them.

 

But everyone has suffered to certain degrees, when you were a feotus you were warm comfortable and secure, then the first thing you do when you are born is cry out as you enter into the cold hostile world so you have already suffered a loss and pain as your first experience in life, then you have to face the suffering that the world isn't perfect and your parents don't love you completely, etc the suffering goes on and on for all of us, so I don't believe people when they say they haven't suffered so they can't relate to it, I just think those people haven't faced up to their own suffering yet.

There are those who live a relatively god-like existence, where every little whim gets fulfilled. To these people, suffering is almost an alien concept, until change happens, and change it must. Which is why the Buddha taught the fundamental truth of impermanence. Most of us take this term rather superficially, which is disappointing, because there is so much freedom to be had from its deeper realization.

[Aaron]

There are those who live a relatively god-like existence, where every little whim gets fulfilled. To these people, suffering is almost an alien concept, until change happens, and change it must. Which is why the Buddha taught the fundamental truth of impermanence. Most of us take this term rather superficially, which is disappointing, because there is so much freedom to be had from its deeper realization.

 

This too must pass... that's what I think of when this idea comes up. It's something they teach in the rooms of AA, that all suffering is temporary, as is all joy, that in order to be able to live on life's terms, one must understand that everything is temporary, to neither depend on the good, nor bad, but accept those things that happen as they are, good and bad as you perceive them to be. Anyways, that's what I got out of it. Thanks for the insight.

 

Aaron

Edited December 22, 2011 by Twinner

[zerostao]

thru direct experience, the nature of how one grows or regresses, how one produces suffering or frees oneself from suffering is understood. life becomes increased awareness, non-delusion, self-control and peace.

 

peace to you brother and may you free yourself from suffering

 

yes is the surrender you got to let it, you got to let it go,

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8dHUfy_YBps

[Jetsun]

"To give attention. It is the simplest and purest act of love.

The greatness, the joy, the rapture and the beauty of all love depends on the intence receptivity of our attention."

- R.A. Jodjana

[Aaron]

Wow this topic came back out of the blue... well compassion and suffering is always important to talk about.

 

Nice quotes guys... thanks.

 

Aaron

[C T]

"To give attention. It is the simplest and purest act of love.

The greatness, the joy, the rapture and the beauty of all love depends on the intence receptivity of our attention."

- R.A. Jodjana

The difference between misery and happiness depends on what we do with our attention. -- Sharon Salzberg

 

synchronicity!!

[zerostao]

i agree with the past 3 posts. thanks for sharing.

for me and maybe we are all wired a little differently?

as for me it is hard to intellectually make a decison to be sympathetic.

in my case it just naturally flows out from my heart.

 

let it out

from within

some you lose

some you win

i can drift

i can dream

til I float

off your screen

and I just can't pour my heart out

to another living thing

i m a whisper

i'm a shadow

but I'm standing up to sing

 

 

 

i do agree to the extent that we do make a choice. i choose not to suffer (no matter what)

i look at this life as an incredible opportunity. i consider it an amazing and wonderful privilege to be here in the now.