beginner's question

[imb]

I've been practising Tai Chi Chuan every day for probably 9 months or so, I have an instructor for this.

'Generic' meditation every day for probably 6 months.

And Chi Kung every day for roughly 4 months, using Master Lam's the Way of Energy.

I'm very much new to Taoism, but what I've read so far of the philosophy has more than intrigued me. In fact, it resonates, and I intend to find out a lot more.

 

What I'm hoping to be helped with, is how to take my practices further; where to go from here. I do appreciate the necessity of getting some proper guidance from an experienced practitioner, and intend to, however that's not really practicable in the short term.

 

I've been using Frantzis' Water Method of Meditation book 1 for the past few months, with the understanding that this is a reasonably safe and appropriate starting place for beginners. But I'm having some difficulties with the practices themselves. I'm finding the information a tad incomplete.

 

I've been doing the initial breathing exercises, ie breathing from the dan tien, and hope to move on to the dissolving methods which I understand are a lot more difficult.

 

My issues so far are thus:

 

1. The first section details feeling the sensations of each breath in a line, starting at the nose, through to the throat and ending at the lower dan tien. I'm guessing I've done this incorrectly though. The area I draw the breath to is an inch or two below the navel, but is more towards the surface, I'm guessing it should be a straight line down more towards the centre of my body?

 

2. I find the sensations to be quite intense. As if my consciousness, or spirit, is drawn or moved towards my belly. Everything goes black, I can feel the energy currents, organs and breathing all around me, and little or no sensation in the rest of my body. Am I supposed to go with this, or to observe these experiences objectively from my head? That leads me to the next question.

 

3. As far as I can tell, the book has no details with regard to how to end the practice. This can be somewhat disturbing, given that during my initial generic meditations, I would end by gradually taking my attention out away from my breath, towards my body, then gradually outwards. But now given I become so heavily immersed in that area, I can feel little else.

 

4. Given these points, it's evident that I need to increase my understanding significantly. Therefore are there some books that would be especially recommended? Anything dealing with the theory or practice for beginners, but that is not too 'fluffy'.

 

I do have Dr Yang's Embryonic breathing, though understand this is more appropriate for intermediates. Is it still worth reading now, even if I wait a bit before attempting the practices? I've also purchased Frantzis' Opening the Energy Gates book, hoping it has more detailed information.

 

I should add that, given these vast gaps in my knowledge, I do intend to take things very slow, until such time that I can find instruction. I just want to master some of these basic practices and increase my learning.

 

Cheers for your help.

Edited December 21, 2011 by imb

[ChiDragon]

imb.....

1. The first section details feeling the sensations of each breath in a line, starting at the nose, through to the throat and ending at the lower dan tien. I'm guessing I've done this incorrectly though. The area I draw the breath to is an inch or two below the navel, but is more towards the surface, I'm guessing it should be a straight line down more towards the centre of my body?

 

That sounds about right...!!! Why do you think it was incorrect...??? Let's take one thing at a time. When the breath was below your navel, did you breathe slowly and expand your abdomen outward....??? I need your answer before we can go any further...!!!

[joeblast]

1) check out as much literature you can on the psoas - at the top it has a bit of overlap with the bottom of the diaphragm; descend this junction and let the motion propagate upward and forward in the diaphragm - once exhale is complete, begin anew from the initial spot.

 

2etc: focusing the thought-stream-energy on the mechanisms creates a path of least resistance that will eventually be "completely empty, mind included." Train the physical mechanisms until everything has been forgotten. When the mind moves, return to the breath.

 

When done, open the eyes (or lift them, if they were somewhat closed) and gradually return, move your legs and arms, some head & scalp massage are always good.

 

Dr Yang's EB book is worth its weight in gold - pick it up and read!

 

and dont forget to smile

[imb]

Thanks for your replies chaps. I'm going to have to ponder on your post a bit joeblast, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by some of those terms, thought-stream-energy?

 

ChiDragon, I'm asking because of this diagram. http://ymaa.com/files/article-concept-qi-qigong.gif

 

If my breath takes a course straight down from the throat, it should reach the 'real dan tien', according to that diagram. But I believe mine is taking a more convex path, towards what I think may be the 'false dan tien'. I always got the impression that the dan tien is something deep inside the body, as I say, I felt as mine was quite near the surface, maybe an inch in. Can't tell for sure.

 

Another thing, it seems to be a bit of an effort. Or it doesn't feel very natural. The next stage in the process is to maintain a line of awareness from my throat to the dan tien. But is the feeling of this line something that comes with practice? I become very much sensitive to what's happening inside my belly, but oddly find it hard to feel this line of my breath.

 

"did you breathe slowly and expand your abdomen outward"

 

Yes, I believe this happened naturally though. If I tried to be too conscious or forceful with my breathing, I couldn't reach that state.

Edited December 21, 2011 by imb

[dwai]

Thanks for your replies chaps. I'm going to have to ponder on your post a bit joeblast, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by some of those terms, thought-stream-energy?

 

ChiDragon, I'm asking because of this diagram. http://ymaa.com/file...t-qi-qigong.gif

 

If my breath takes a course straight down from the throat, it should reach the 'real dan tien', according to that diagram. But I believe mine is taking a more convex path, towards what I think may be the 'false dan tien'. I always got the impression that the dan tien is something deep inside the body, as I say, I felt as mine was quite near the surface, maybe an inch in. Can't tell for sure.

 

Another thing, it seems to be a bit of an effort. Or it doesn't feel very natural. The next stage in the process is to maintain a line of awareness from my throat to the dan tien. But is the feeling of this line something that comes with practice? I become very much sensitive to what's happening inside my belly, but oddly find it hard to feel this line of my breath.

 

"did you breathe slowly and expand your abdomen outward"

 

Yes, I believe this happened naturally though. If I tried to be too conscious or forceful with my breathing, I couldn't reach that state.

 

dan tien is not constantly in one position....it is moving and spinning around. So you can feel it towards the surface. It should be a substantial area first (like a large hazy ball of energy) and then as you progress it should shrink down to a point. The way my teacher puts it...the LDT should be like a collapsing star...the qi should sink into it. We close out our meditation with focus on the LDT...bringing down the qi into the LDT and then shrinking it into a point (as much as is comfortable). The point to remember is to not force it...just as much as naturally happens. With time it will get easier and smaller.

 

Remembering that the Qi follows the Yi (mind intent), by simply thinking of qi sinking into the LDT will make it sink into it. It might feel slightly painful (very slightly) at first...but that'll go away soon.

 

If you move your attention away from the LDT, the Qi will naturally flow to that area...so for cultivation, retain your attention to the LDT. When attention wanders enough, you'll know that the meditation/closing is over.

 

Another thing is to not do too much "mind" stimulation after the meditation...sit quietly for as long as feels good. When the mind starts to wander is when you should know it's time to get up and move around.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2011 by dwai

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for your replies chaps. I'm going to have to ponder on your post a bit joeblast, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by some of those terms, thought-stream-energy?

 

ChiDragon, I'm asking because of this diagram. http://ymaa.com/files/article-concept-qi-qigong.gif

 

If my breath takes a course straight down from the throat, it should reach the 'real dan tien', according to that diagram. But I believe mine is taking a more convex path, towards what I think may be the 'false dan tien'. I always got the impression that the dan tien is something deep inside the body, as I say, I felt as mine was quite near the surface, maybe an inch in. Can't tell for sure.

 

Another thing, it seems to be a bit of an effort. Or it doesn't feel very natural. The next stage in the process is to maintain a line of awareness from my throat to the dan tien. But is the feeling of this line something that comes with practice? I become very much sensitive to what's happening inside my belly, but oddly find it hard to feel this line of my breath.

 

"did you breathe slowly and expand your abdomen outward"

 

Yes, I believe this happened naturally though. If I tried to be too conscious or forceful with my breathing, I couldn't reach that state.

 

There are too many information out there. How much can one follow...??? Just use your own judgement. The diagram you see anything that is below the navel was considered the lower dan tian. However, someone will break it down and give it more names, but don't let that discourage you.

 

The key to Chi Kung is to breathe like the way you had described. One can only control the breathing external. What will be taken place inside the body is really beyond your own control. If anyone tells you how you should feel, it was only imaginary. From breathing experience and biological knowledge, as long I breathe slowly and deep down to the abdomen, I'll considered that I have completed my breathing cycle. How do I know that...??? It was because my abdomen had fully expanded, then I know that my lungs are working to their fullest capability and capture the maximum amount of Chi.

 

The term "Dan tien" was only a term used to describe a position in the body. The reason practitioners says "sunk the Chi to the lower dan tien" was because it was only an expression. Indeed, the breath did not really goes into the abdomen. There is no need to concern about the line that you had mentioned. You did fine up to this point.

Edited December 22, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Sloppy Zhang]

If you're looking to expand your practice of Frantzis' Water method, read and pay special attention to what's in "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". I'd also suggest you read Vol 2, "Relaxing Into Your Being", as it gives you a better idea of the larger context, and it gives you some clues as to where you're going in the long run. But that's just me...

 

 

As to the whole dantien thing, there's a lot out there. Yang Jwing-Ming talks about the "true" dantien and the "false" dantien. I do believe the "false" dantien is at acupuncture point. He says it's a real acupuncture point, but isn't going to be able to store any energy. Then he talks about the "real" dantien.

 

Comparing notes, I do believe the dantien that Frantzis writes about is the "true" dantien that Yang Jwing-Ming writes about. Maybe I came into the days where there was more information about what the dantien is, but I've never seen anybody write about a dantien that wasn't pretty much the same "center of your being" that Yang Jwing-Ming writes about. So when I read it, I was a bit confused, only to find out I was on the right track all along But I'm sure it was something Yang Jwing-Ming saw that he felt needed to be addressed.

 

 

Basically, stick to the breathing exercises that are presented in "Relaxing Into Your Breathing". That is your foundation. Learn to find and maintain awareness on your dantien.

 

Then, for the dissolving part, consult the dissolving in "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". A brief description of dissolving is given in "Relaxing Into Your Being", but it's much more full in Energy Gates.

[Jetsun]

The actual Water meditation is not very difficult, so I wouldn't worry about it being too advanced to try. The books and cd set explain it pretty well and by the sounds of things it might be be more straightforward than what you are currently doing. Essentially you just observe your blockages systematically and any emotions or sensations are regarded as good in the sense that they are "water" or moving energy which is a step closer towards freedom than "ice" which is a frozen still energy and whatever you experience can be let go of.

[Gerard]

 

As to the whole dantien thing, there's a lot out there. Yang Jwing-Ming talks about the "true" dantien and the "false" dantien. I do believe the "false" dantien is at acupuncture point. He says it's a real acupuncture point, but isn't going to be able to store any energy. Then he talks about the "real" dantien.

 

What if I say that the true lower dantien is not physically located in your body? Would it be a far-fetched statement?

[Sloppy Zhang]

What if I say that the true lower dantien is not physically located in your body? Would it be a far-fetched statement?

 

Depends on how far down the rabbit hole you plan to get.

 

In the tradition that Frantzis represents in his books, it starts with the physical body, then moves on to energetics, then into emotions, mind, psychic stuff, karma, and on down into essence and finally the Tao itself (or something to that effect, consult the section in the books on the eight energy bodies).

 

So a beginner is going to start with the energies of the physical body, and work on blockages and energetics rooted there.

 

So in that regards, yeah, it would be pretty far fetched to start talking about places where awareness can center that are not in line with the average person's routine physical modes of being.

 

But once one progresses to the energetic body, or the emotional or mental body, then yeah, I'd imagine you'd get into where things are located that are not physical or, perhaps, not even within the realms of everyday consciousness

 

Not that I'd know anything about that beyond just the theory

Edited December 22, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[humbleone]

Good thread, I am also new to Frantzis water based methods.

 

Based on the generous advice given by sloppy zhang, jetsun and others, I started with the Energy gates book + relaxing into your being. but like you needed a little help in getting started.

 

I found the following guide by Dan Kleiman very helpful, he also has three mp3 that one can downloaded. zhan zhuang has now become a very important and grounding practice for me. I incorporate breathing, dissolving and the grounding, into all in one Zhan Zhuang(wuji) pose.

 

http://www.dankleiman.com/2011/10/31/opening-the-energy-gates-by-bruce-frantzis-is-the-most-important-qigong-book-to-have-in-your-library/

 

http://www.relaxationmeditation.co.uk/tai-chi/energy-gates-qigong.html

[joeblast]

Thanks for your replies chaps. I'm going to have to ponder on your post a bit joeblast, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by some of those terms, thought-stream-energy?

 

ChiDragon, I'm asking because of this diagram. http://ymaa.com/files/article-concept-qi-qigong.gif

 

If my breath takes a course straight down from the throat, it should reach the 'real dan tien', according to that diagram. But I believe mine is taking a more convex path, towards what I think may be the 'false dan tien'. I always got the impression that the dan tien is something deep inside the body, as I say, I felt as mine was quite near the surface, maybe an inch in. Can't tell for sure.

 

Another thing, it seems to be a bit of an effort. Or it doesn't feel very natural. The next stage in the process is to maintain a line of awareness from my throat to the dan tien. But is the feeling of this line something that comes with practice? I become very much sensitive to what's happening inside my belly, but oddly find it hard to feel this line of my breath.

 

"did you breathe slowly and expand your abdomen outward"

 

Yes, I believe this happened naturally though. If I tried to be too conscious or forceful with my breathing, I couldn't reach that state.

Thoughtstreamenergy=the root energy that is rather responsible for the poppin off of random thought, but random thought is only one manifestation. They key is the "root" of it, the source (or at least, a more fundamental notion of such than once the energy has already manifested into thought.)

 

If you are doing BK's water method he does take you on a trip down, but that is more a focus of body in a sense. By descending the psoas-diaphragm connection to initiate breath, you are "anchoring" the breath. Anchoring in such a fashion allows one a deeper regulation of breath. What I mean by that is...in the process of "attenuating the body's signals," i.e. calming constituent parts down so that the whole is "less noisy" (I'm sure just about anyone can tell that rapid breath, fast heartbeat is "more noisy" than calm slow long breath and gentle heartbeat) as you get the breath longer and longer you encounter physical irregularities that hinder progress.

 

For instance, normally when people breathe it is roughly from the center of the diaphragm, and the air pressure buffering mechanism comes from the sinuses (inhale and note how much you "inhale at the sinuses" and then a certain buffered percentage makes its way down to the lungs) - as the breaths get slower and more lengthy there is a disparity in tensions that wind up causing a diaphragmatic "hiccup" of sorts as the differing tension is resolved back to front - and what winds up happening is the greatest amplitude imparted on the diaphragm is in the center, where the foramina are - the holes in the diaphragm through which pass the Aorta, Vena Cava, Esophagus, Vagus Nerve. heh, so its almost like there's a glass floor you cant go beneath if your breath is not rooted!

 

Anchoring the breath at the psoas-diaphragm connection allows a few things:

 

-you know just how to start each breath...that's something where exact detail I've never seen, despite having read dr yang's, bk's, etc stuff. From knowing how to start, one is able to more readily master the transitions between inhale and exhale.

 

-you can relax the sinuses so that they are no longer the buffering mechanism - haha, try this, close off your nose and only breathe with your mouth and let the center of the diaphragm drop as the initiating movement of breath - its almost like there's a weight attached to the diaphragm the Rooting eliminates the need for sinus buffering - with sinus buffer it not only creates turbulence in the air passageways (which steals energy from the breath) but the opening and closing of the sinuses themselves is physical movement, which requires energy. If one is making the breath as energetically efficient as possible, at some point these little particulars come into play.

 

-the psoas is very intimately connected to the dantien, if there was a structure you could call the Kua, that would most likely be it.

 

Anyway, I spent a lot of time a few years ago simply trying to execute a perfect breath for my given bodily rates; it varies. Its a true way to work towards deep longevity breathing, harmonizing these processes - of course I started out with the simple expand abdomen on inhale, contract on exhale, then added the huiyin/perineum, a bit of quadratus lumborum, from there to working on growing and shrinking a ball of energy at the dantien, and in that trip to minute+ breaths I discovered these things I posted above. Once I explored that tangential path it greatly enhanced the basics - and through all of that focused-mind-on-harmonizing-the-physical-processes, once you've built the requisite muscle memory that is when you're just doing a bit of "helping the wheel turn" by a bit of focus, then let go of it and "let it happen" because once the muscle memory is there you can relegate that bit to subconscious processes and not use "mental capital" to keep it going - but the funny thing is, you still are "using" the mental capital, but it is more like "investing the capital" in that it is more efficiently harnessed by core processes when you've focused your mind enough - your mind starts simply becoming less likely to pop off random thoughts due to this training,

 

and that's where the thought-stream-energy being harnessed came from

[spiraltao]

keep on droppin that knowledge Mista Blast

 

 

 

bump bump bum

[ChiDragon]

I've been practising Tai Chi Chuan every day for probably 9 months or so, I have an instructor for this.

'Generic' meditation every day for probably 6 months.

And Chi Kung every day for roughly 4 months, using Master Lam's the Way of Energy.

I'm very much new to Taoism, but what I've read so far of the philosophy has more than intrigued me. In fact, it resonates, and I intend to find out a lot more.

 

I've been doing the initial breathing exercises, ie breathing from the dan tien, and hope to move on to the dissolving methods which I understand are a lot more difficult.

 

My issues so far are thus:

 

1. The first section details feeling the sensations of each breath in a line, starting at the nose, through to the throat and ending at the lower dan tien. I'm guessing I've done this incorrectly though. The area I draw the breath to is an inch or two below the navel, but is more towards the surface, I'm guessing it should be a straight line down more towards the centre of my body?

 

2. I find the sensations to be quite intense. As if my consciousness, or spirit, is drawn or moved towards my belly. Everything goes black, I can feel the energy currents, organs and breathing all around me, and little or no sensation in the rest of my body. Am I supposed to go with this, or to observe these experiences objectively from my head? That leads me to the next question.

 

3. As far as I can tell, the book has no details with regard to how to end the practice. This can be somewhat disturbing, given that during my initial generic meditations, I would end by gradually taking my attention out away from my breath, towards my body, then gradually outwards. But now given I become so heavily immersed in that area, I can feel little else.

 

4. Given these points, it's evident that I need to increase my understanding significantly. Therefore are there some books that would be especially recommended? Anything dealing with the theory or practice for beginners, but that is not too 'fluffy'.

 

1. Based on you input, you have the basic knowledge and doing the fundamental breathing of Chi Kung. That's what you needed to know and filter out other stuff. So, don't let them confuse you.

 

2. What shows in bold is exactly how you should felt during normal practice. It is because you are really concentrating on your breathing. Please remember, it is the action that gives you the results and feelings can be deceiving. At the beginning of Chi Kung practice, there are many different sensations that you might have to go through. The Chinese called that the "Chi sensation". The "Chi sensation" came about is because, your body was going through a transient of changes. Chi Kung will scan your body internally to find any existing illnesses. It will go through a healing process if an illness was found. During the healing process you will feel some kind of unpleasant sensations. After the sensations are gone, it means that the illness had been cured. Then, Chi Kung continues to enhance the function of the whole body.

 

3. In regarding to ending the practice, in general, one should slowly exhale the last breath completely. Then go back to your normal breathing pattern. After years of Chi Kung or Tai Ji practice, your normal breathing pattern should be having the breath going slowly deep down to the lower dan tien at all times. Another words, a good breathing habit for Chi Kung practitioners should be about four breathing cycles per minute.

 

My advice to you is not to learn too many methods or read too many books if you cannot filter out the unwanted information. In the mean time, just stay with Tai Ji and Chi Kung practice. You will learn from the experience in your practice as time goes by. It is a good thing to absorb new knowledge but at the same time filter out the unwanted. Try not to believe everything what the books said. Indeed, I think you are doing the right thing by asking legitimate questions when in doubt. Remember, use your own judgment and don't believe everything what people said. Including me if anything I said doesn't make any sense to you.

 

Good luck in your practice. BTW I am also a Tai Chi and Chi Kung practitioner too....

Edited December 23, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Gerard]

In the tradition that Frantzis represents in his books, it starts with the physical body, then moves on to energetics, then into emotions, mind, psychic stuff, karma, and on down into essence and finally the Tao itself (or something to that effect, consult the section in the books on the eight energy bodies).

 

So a beginner is going to start with the energies of the physical body, and work on blockages and energetics rooted there.

 

So in that regards, yeah, it would be pretty far fetched to start talking about places where awareness can center that are not in line with the average person's routine physical modes of being.

 

But once one progresses to the energetic body, or the emotional or mental body, then yeah, I'd imagine you'd get into where things are located that are not physical or, perhaps, not even within the realms of everyday consciousness

 

Not that I'd know anything about that beyond just the theory

 

Yes nicely put, but I wasn't referring to a particular author, just my personal experience resulting from practice bearing in mind our multidimensional nature.

 

Probably what was described in Opening the Dragon Gate comes close to the real thing. BKF's only taps on the surface as things get quite complicated when you start looking below/beyond that particular framework. Still his model is very useable.

 

Regards.

[寒月 Hanyue]

My issues so far are thus:

 

1. The first section details feeling the sensations of each breath in a line, starting at the nose, through to the throat and ending at the lower dan tien. I'm guessing I've done this incorrectly though. The area I draw the breath to is an inch or two below the navel, but is more towards the surface, I'm guessing it should be a straight line down more towards the centre of my body?

 

2. I find the sensations to be quite intense. As if my consciousness, or spirit, is drawn or moved towards my belly. Everything goes black, I can feel the energy currents, organs and breathing all around me, and little or no sensation in the rest of my body. Am I supposed to go with this, or to observe these experiences objectively from my head? That leads me to the next question.

 

3. As far as I can tell, the book has no details with regard to how to end the practice. This can be somewhat disturbing, given that during my initial generic meditations, I would end by gradually taking my attention out away from my breath, towards my body, then gradually outwards. But now given I become so heavily immersed in that area, I can feel little else.

 

4. Given these points, it's evident that I need to increase my understanding significantly. Therefore are there some books that would be especially recommended? Anything dealing with the theory or practice for beginners, but that is not too 'fluffy'.

 

I do have Dr Yang's Embryonic breathing, though understand this is more appropriate for intermediates. Is it still worth reading now, even if I wait a bit before attempting the practices? I've also purchased Frantzis' Opening the Energy Gates book, hoping it has more detailed information.

 

I should add that, given these vast gaps in my knowledge, I do intend to take things very slow, until such time that I can find instruction. I just want to master some of these basic practices and increase my learning.

 

Cheers for your help.

 

First of all. If you want to work on Frantzis' stuff for a while to build a foundation, then do that. It is a complete system, as are other systems. In that it has all you need, it might just be presented in a different order. Don't compare it or do a bit of it and a bit of something else.

 

The repsonses you are getting are great, but they are mostly not about Frantzis system, they are about things in general. That is fine, but be aware of why comments from outside a system sometimes help and sometimes hinder. This is true for ALL systems. So take them in context and you'll be fine.

 

Bruce teaches physical whole body breathing, and subtle energy breathing.

 

1) Breath down the Zhongmai the central channel from baihui to huiyin, the lower dantian is on this line. It is A WAY into learning certain things, not the only way, other systems may do things differently. In Frantzis' system we breath down to and back from lower dantian through the zhongmai.

 

The lower dantian is NOT confined to a physical location within the body. And MANY different systems have located it in various places. Today in our blend everything together way, we think the three dantian model is correct and the only way. Stick with the theory of the system you are using.

 

2) Take it slow and easy, remember 70%. That applies to all things, if it is too intense you will build a resistance to it even subconsiously. You will then have to fight this and waste energy everytime you practice. It sound like you are beginning to experience the lower dantian.

 

3) Stay in your body throughout, maintain presence. Slowly bring yourself back to the room at large. sit quietly and allow your qi to settle and be calm, the yin returning to dantian. Brush down both the physical and energetic body if need be to help settle the qi back to dantian. Just sit and be quiet, no special breathing etc. Slowly open your eyes, get up and walk calmly. Add any self tuina if needed for any areas where qi may get stuck

 

If you do 10 minutes breathing practice, then do your outward dissolving afterwards. This can be done sitting. Bruce prefers to teach it standing as that is where it is most effective, especially for martial arts. but sitting is fine

 

4) For Frantzis' system. Opening the energy gates and Tao of letting go, the cd set on breathing goes through more of the subtle as well as the physical breath and is very good. The article by Frank Allen in this pdf from some years ago that helps outline Frantzis system and the dissolving process http://www.power2u.org/downloads/TheRoleOfTheInternalArtsForHealthWellnessAndRecovery.pdf

Read also Huai Nan-Chin's Tao and longevity.

 

Personally I'd forget Yang Jwing-Mings book. I have several and I think he translates things well. But it will confuse you if your aim is to understand Frantzis' system. Get your head around one way first, then read about another.

 

Hope this helps,

 

If you're looking to expand your practice of Frantzis' Water method, read and pay special attention to what's in "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body".

 

Basically, stick to the breathing exercises that are presented in "Relaxing Into Your Breathing". That is your foundation. Learn to find and maintain awareness on your dantien.

 

Then, for the dissolving part, consult the dissolving in "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". A brief description of dissolving is given in "Relaxing Into Your Being", but it's much more full in Energy Gates.

 

Exactly.

[Encephalon]

First of all. If you want to work on Frantzis' stuff for a while to build a foundation, then do that. It is a complete system, as are other systems. In that it has all you need, it might just be presented in a different order. Don't compare it or do a bit of it and a bit of something else.

 

The repsonses you are getting are great, but they are mostly not about Frantzis system, they are about things in general. That is fine, but be aware of why comments from outside a system sometimes help and sometimes hinder. This is true for ALL systems. So take them in context and you'll be fine.

 

Bruce teaches physical whole body breathing, and subtle energy breathing.

 

1) Breath down the Zhongmai the central channel from baihui to huiyin, the lower dantian is on this line. It is A WAY into learning certain things, not the only way, other systems may do things differently. In Frantzis' system we breath down to and back from lower dantian through the zhongmai.

 

The lower dantian is NOT confined to a physical location within the body. And MANY different systems have located it in various places. Today in our blend everything together way, we think the three dantian model is correct and the only way. Stick with the theory of the system you are using.

 

2) Take it slow and easy, remember 70%. That applies to all things, if it is too intense you will build a resistance to it even subconsiously. You will then have to fight this and waste energy everytime you practice. It sound like you are beginning to experience the lower dantian.

 

3) Stay in your body throughout, maintain presence. Slowly bring yourself back to the room at large. sit quietly and allow your qi to settle and be calm, the yin returning to dantian. Brush down both the physical and energetic body if need be to help settle the qi back to dantian. Just sit and be quiet, no special breathing etc. Slowly open your eyes, get up and walk calmly. Add any self tuina if needed for any areas where qi may get stuck

 

If you do 10 minutes breathing practice, then do your outward dissolving afterwards. This can be done sitting. Bruce prefers to teach it standing as that is where it is most effective, especially for martial arts. but sitting is fine

 

4) For Frantzis' system. Opening the energy gates and Tao of letting go, the cd set on breathing goes through more of the subtle as well as the physical breath and is very good. The article by Frank Allen in this pdf from some years ago that helps outline Frantzis system and the dissolving process http://www.power2u.org/downloads/TheRoleOfTheInternalArtsForHealthWellnessAndRecovery.pdf

Read also Huai Nan-Chin's Tao and longevity.

 

Personally I'd forget Yang Jwing-Mings book. I have several and I think he translates things well. But it will confuse you if your aim is to understand Frantzis' system. Get your head around one way first, then read about another.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Exactly.

 

Thank you for posting this. I just read the attached pdf - "Release to Freedom: The Dissolving Process of the Taoist Water Method" by Frank Allen & Sally Kealy - and I have to say it was a perfectly encouraging read on this fine Christmas day in California. The "TAO of Letting Go: Meditation for Modern Living" by Bruce Kumar Frantzis is waiting for me when I get home next week and I think it portends a very productive year for my practice. Thanks again.

[imb]

Hi guys, first of all, I wanted to thank you all for your wonderful advice. I'm pretty sure this is the friendliest forum I have come across Sorry I didn't back sooner. I intended to do so after I had given your suggestions a try and so could report back my success. Unfortunately, it wasn't to be. I became ill, which stalled my practice for a while, and naturally things take longer to achieve than you anticipate. I feel a lot more comfortable undertaking these practices now. Moderation was indeed key. I'm also referring back to these answers for tidbits in the future.

 

1) Breath down the Zhongmai the central channel from baihui to huiyin, the lower dantian is on this line. It is A WAY into learning certain things, not the only way, other systems may do things differently. In Frantzis' system we breath down to and back from lower dantian through the zhongmai.

 

Hmm, as I understand, the baihui is at the top of the head. I've not encountered or practised yet above around the neck area. But this description is important. Because yesterday, I became aware of that central channel. Previously, I'd encountered what felt like 'squirts' of fluid around my body, then it felt like a thick paste emanating from my dan tien, and finally last night it was like a fast flowing river along that central channel. It was an incredible sensation. My question is, now I have experienced it, what on earth do I do with this? I'm aware that I'm probably irritating you guys with my really rudimentary questions. The issue I'm having, is that Frantzis describes this ambiguously as something like the 'central channel' towards the beginning of his book. I'm not entirely sure he's referring to the same thing I am. In terms of the stages he describes, I'm still towards the beginning. I'm at the stage where I'm supposed to increase consciousness of what's happening inside my body. So he talks about expanding this central channel equidistant towards my skin at the front and the spine at the back. Should I be doing it with this energy flow? Can it not be harmful to interfere with or move this flow if I don't know what I'm doing? Can I move it in an upward direction as well as down? If not that, what? Is this energy flow the basis of microcosmic orbit meditation?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I'd forget Yang Jwing-Mings book. I have several and I think he translates things well. But it will confuse you if your aim is to understand Frantzis' system. Get your head around one way first, then read about another.

 

I appreciate what you're saying and what others have said. I'm sure I should be fine reading his work as long as I bear this in mind. Maybe I'm doing Yang a disservice here, but he seems to dedicate a lot of time to theory, and very little to the actual descriptions of the practice. (I know the two go hand in hand).

 

Thanks again guys. (forgive my horrendous grammar, braindead atm).

[寒月 Hanyue]

..

Edited February 27, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hmm, as I understand, the baihui is at the top of the head. I've not encountered or practised yet above around the neck area. But this description is important. Because yesterday, I became aware of that central channel. Previously, I'd encountered what felt like 'squirts' of fluid around my body, then it felt like a thick paste emanating from my dan tien, and finally last night it was like a fast flowing river along that central channel. It was an incredible sensation. My question is, now I have experienced it, what on earth do I do with this? I'm aware that I'm probably irritating you guys with my really rudimentary questions. The issue I'm having, is that Frantzis describes this ambiguously as something like the 'central channel' towards the beginning of his book. I'm not entirely sure he's referring to the same thing I am. In terms of the stages he describes, I'm still towards the beginning. I'm at the stage where I'm supposed to increase consciousness of what's happening inside my body. So he talks about expanding this central channel equidistant towards my skin at the front and the spine at the back. Should I be doing it with this energy flow? Can it not be harmful to interfere with or move this flow if I don't know what I'm doing? Can I move it in an upward direction as well as down? If not that, what? Is this energy flow the basis of microcosmic orbit meditation?

 

Yes Zhongmai is baihui to huiyin. According to Daoist priest J. Yuen it is an older version of what has become known as the chongmai in Chinese medicine (which today is mapped in a different route).

 

The breathing Frantzis teaches enters zhongmai through the nasal cavity and then descends to dantian. Though the whole channel up to baihui will be woken up. You want to work with the energy through becoming aware of it, listening to it and calming it down, feeling it as smooth and soft. The breathing progression is NOT about trying to ramp up the energy or make it DO anything. Not yet. Other systems may do that, but not this one.

 

Make sure the breathing rhythm you are using is circular, no stopping at either inhale or exhale. Make your breath soft, smooth, and fine. Do not worry about deep or long. Add a gentle sense of descending energy while you breath. Then after your breath practice do downward dissolving, ideally standing. Pay no attention to the breath leave it be. Move awareness to above the head and feel for the downward current through the etheric body to below your feet.

 

If overall your energy is becoming uncomfortable, irratic, jumpy etc, do less breathing and more downward dissolving. Or stop the breathing practice altogether and focus on downward dissolving.

 

best,

[ChiDragon]

If people keep on talking about stop breathing practice in Chi Kung, then I don't know what is Chi Kung anymore. It seems to me the books that people read are very confusing and incomplete. When people are trying to tell others what to do are very misleading. IMMHO It one does not have the knowledge of the basic concept of any method and cannot explain it in one's own words, it's better not to practice it at all. There should be just one basic concept about Chi Kung is to learn the "ultimate method of breathing". If one thinks about Chi Kung is something else other than breathing, then one is starting with the wrong foot. I still can't figure it out why and how the definition of Chi Kung got lost in translation.

 

 

OK!!! Shoot me people.....

Edited February 29, 2012 by ChiDragon

[imb]

I think that's fair ChiDragon. I've really gone back to basics and have scaled back my practice. For the following reason. Since adding Master Lam's third posture after 6 months, holding the belly, it has just sent my body into disarray! Afterwards my palms start sweating, get tremendous anxiety, and light headedness, the energy seems too intense. Are these classic burn out symptoms? Only doing a minute or two of that posture seems to bring it on, so naturally, I've stopped now, but I was a little curious as to what might be going on. Separately I've been scanning my body, and can feel a huge blockage in my abdomen, feeling like a slab of concrete when I scan there, presumably related to my digestive organs. I've been having digestive symptoms for a while that I've been trying to get diagnosed. Gluten being a possible culprit. Could this blockage be affecting my practice? As mentioned I'm definitely 'not going there' for the foreseeable future, cause it's too intense, and I obviously need some instruction and guidance. It's a shame, because these practices all but eliminated my anxiety problems. Nevertheless, I am curious. Maybe I'm just 'ill-constituted' for this stuff.

[RiverSnake]

I think that's fair ChiDragon. I've really gone back to basics and have scaled back my practice. For the following reason. Since adding Master Lam's third posture after 6 months, holding the belly, it has just sent my body into disarray! Afterwards my palms start sweating, get tremendous anxiety, and light headedness, the energy seems too intense. Are these classic burn out symptoms? Only doing a minute or two of that posture seems to bring it on, so naturally, I've stopped now, but I was a little curious as to what might be going on. Separately I've been scanning my body, and can feel a huge blockage in my abdomen, feeling like a slab of concrete when I scan there, presumably related to my digestive organs. I've been having digestive symptoms for a while that I've been trying to get diagnosed. Gluten being a possible culprit. Could this blockage be affecting my practice? As mentioned I'm definitely 'not going there' for the foreseeable future, cause it's too intense, and I obviously need some instruction and guidance. It's a shame, because these practices all but eliminated my anxiety problems. Nevertheless, I am curious. Maybe I'm just 'ill-constituted' for this stuff.

 

Water Fasts or Juice Fasts are great for clearing out the digestive system. Get 7 gallons of Cranberry juice and drink one gallon a day for 7 days. You'll clear yourself out good.

[spiraltao]

I think that's fair ChiDragon. I've really gone back to basics and have scaled back my practice. For the following reason. Since adding Master Lam's third posture after 6 months, holding the belly, it has just sent my body into disarray! Afterwards my palms start sweating, get tremendous anxiety, and light headedness, the energy seems too intense. Are these classic burn out symptoms? Only doing a minute or two of that posture seems to bring it on, so naturally, I've stopped now, but I was a little curious as to what might be going on. Separately I've been scanning my body, and can feel a huge blockage in my abdomen, feeling like a slab of concrete when I scan there, presumably related to my digestive organs. I've been having digestive symptoms for a while that I've been trying to get diagnosed. Gluten being a possible culprit. Could this blockage be affecting my practice? As mentioned I'm definitely 'not going there' for the foreseeable future, cause it's too intense, and I obviously need some instruction and guidance. It's a shame, because these practices all but eliminated my anxiety problems. Nevertheless, I am curious. Maybe I'm just 'ill-constituted' for this stuff.

 

 

 

 

Lettuce, unpeeled apples, general food roughage promotes peristalsis.

 

 

 

Don't give up entirely!

[mYTHmAKER]

Ground flax seeds eaten immediately after grinding in a fruit salad