What begat thinking?

[Aaron]

So I was thinking today that some people must have some really interesting explanations for how awareness and consciousness began. I'm sure some believe it was always there (and I sure do), but if so, what caused this consciousness to begin creating self aware creatures like us humans? Any ideas or thoughts? If you have a creation myth concerning this, please post it, I'd love to hear it.

 

Aaron

[Informer]

Awareness began when matter perceived itself.

 

Consciousness began when awareness perceived itself.

 

When did the awakening begin?

[konchog uma]

No i have absolutely no thoughts about how awareness began, except that one thought i just shared right there.

 

And if i ever had a thought about the source, i would at least have already had 1000 thoughts about how the source must transcend thought and the mechanism of thought, language, in order to truly be the source.

 

And if anyone wants to chime in here with any stupid thoughts about the origin of consciousness and awareness and the spirit, i will laugh to myself but that will be the only incendiary thing i say about it.

 

I used to bend my head thinking "why is this" and "how could this have arisen" and I have read many theories on the subject, from many capable minds and religious/spiritual/shamanic worldviews, only to conclude that subscribing to such ideas causes a very unhealthy ossification of the psyche, dangerous in the EXTREME, because at that point at which your ego convinces you that you actually understand reality or the FIRST god damned mysterious thing about it, you will stop experiencing reality as-it-is and you will begin to perceive through the filter of reality as-you-think-it-is.

 

so you can think "why" into your right hand, and take a shit into your left hand, but i can tell you right now which one will get full first. Thoughts of this kind aren't worth a god damned thing and are a total waste of fucking time get it? im swearing because this is actually important to understand. Reality is a subtle mystery, and deserves better than to be insulted by the notion that some ignoramus like one of us can comprehend it. Give up. Experience the dream, not your theory of "the holgraphic reality matrix of such and such" or "the square root of the speed of light times the weight of gold" or whatever nonsense your left brains produced and your right brains mistook as the oasis. Its a mirage. Sorry.

 

The wise call it the ineffable mystery for a reason. Leave it that way, its way better for the quality of your experience.

Edited December 21, 2011 by anamatva

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I've had thoughts on the matter. typed out long and drawn out thoughts.

 

Ultimately, it's really jsut good novel fodder. fiction fodder.

 

 

Check out my site some time, it's in there.... somewhere. i think the title is... "Is". really.

 

 

But to reiterate and paraphrase, there simply is. what, is irrelevant. how, just as much so. regardless, it is all reflections of reflections. becoming aware creates thought. like a byproduct. thought leads to name, name to word, and word to dualism.

[suninmyeyes]

Dont know this stuff really, but if I listen attentivly I hear a constant sound that speaks a language that is not transalatable into words.

Maybe begining and causing is just a human invention that works in certain framework and context only.

[Aaron]

No i have absolutely no thoughts about how awareness began, except that one thought i just shared right there.

 

And if i ever had a thought about the source, i would at least have already had 1000 thoughts about how the source must transcend thought and the mechanism of thought, language, in order to truly be the source.

 

And if anyone wants to chime in here with any stupid thoughts about the origin of consciousness and awareness and the spirit, i will laugh to myself but that will be the only incendiary thing i say about it.

 

I used to bend my head thinking "why is this" and "how could this have arisen" and I have read many theories on the subject, from many capable minds and religious/spiritual/shamanic worldviews, only to conclude that subscribing to such ideas causes a very unhealthy ossification of the psyche, dangerous in the EXTREME, because at that point at which your ego convinces you that you actually understand reality or the FIRST god damned mysterious thing about it, you will stop experiencing reality as-it-is and you will begin to perceive through the filter of reality as-you-think-it-is.

 

so you can think "why" into your right hand, and take a shit into your left hand, but i can tell you right now which one will get full first. Thoughts of this kind aren't worth a god damned thing and are a total waste of fucking time get it? im swearing because this is actually important to understand. Reality is a subtle mystery, and deserves better than to be insulted by the notion that some ignoramus like one of us can comprehend it. Give up. Experience the dream, not your theory of "the holgraphic reality matrix of such and such" or "the square root of the speed of light times the weight of gold" or whatever nonsense your left brains produced and your right brains mistook as the oasis. Its a mirage. Sorry.

 

The wise call it the ineffable mystery for a reason. Leave it that way, its way better for the quality of your experience.

 

My father used to say, "You can dream about this in your right hand or shit in your left hand and see which fills up faster." It pissed me off when he said it, I mean really that analogy is just vulgar and meant to shock people. I actually started to tune out what you said after that, but decided to put my own feelings about that phrase and people that use it aside and examine the rest.

 

I guess if you follow the bandwagon and believe everything that you've been told is true and infallible, then yeah, no point. Of course you could think for yourself and examine it anyways and figure out if it's a waste of time, then say, yeah it's a waste of time.

 

Now to put it bluntly, you're following the flock, the sheep dog has nipped you on the butt and told you where you can roam. That green valley over there, you can't go there, that's not where the sheep dog wants you to go. So do you keep fearing the sheep dog and stay with the flock or do you one day wake up to the fact that you're just doing what the other sheep are doing and what every sheep that has come before you has done, and simply sneak off in the dark and make a life for yourself? Of course some wolves might get you, or you might wander into a desert, but hey that's the price to pay for freedom. At least that's how I see it, so please, don't feel the need to tell me what I can and can't answer, what I can and can't dream about, it's not your business to tell me, nor was it my fathers.

 

The wise have only told you what they've experienced, not everything that can be experienced. Lao Tzu didn't know about nuclear fission, does that mean I shouldn't believe it exists? Jeesh, when are we going to move into the 21st century? This is like the Christians that still believe that wafer is the body of Christ and wine the blood of Christ. Science can disprove that and I think in the end it will disprove that your mystery is all that ineffable.

 

Aaron

Edited December 21, 2011 by Twinner

[konchog uma]

logic is the sheepdog. reality is an unlimited dream that we just might never understand.

 

well i think you missed my point but i'm not going to try harder than that to make it again.

 

sorry i reminded you of your dad in an unpleasant way. the saying is no less true.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

think of it this way:

 

Dreams are intuitive, shit is logical.

[guruyoga]

 

 

Not exactly related to this thread, but I wonder reading a lot of your posts, do you practice something - meditation, yoga, energy work or any of the classical/structured systems?

[Aaron]

logic is the sheepdog. reality is an unlimited dream that we just might never understand.

 

well i think you missed my point but i'm not going to try harder than that to make it again.

 

sorry i reminded you of your dad in an unpleasant way. the saying is no less true.

 

No need to feel sorry, it wasn't your intent to bring back an old memory. You can try harder to explain it if you want, but I think I know what you're going to say. On this topic, I'm sure we'll never agree. I don't believe in accepting others explanations for how things work, one must test these things out for one's self. That's the key to opening up to the universe, not allowing someone to tell you how to do it or why you need to do it, or what it is. The real reason to do any of this, including thinking such ridiculous things like, "what begat awareness" is because we have a desire to know.

 

For those who say, "be done with knowledge", keep in mind, Laotzu wasn't talking about not learning or not being curious, he was saying, don't learn simply for learning's sake. Don't cram your head full of material, like sutras, tracts, etc. simply because you've been told you need to learn them. Experience the world, don't read about it in books.

 

 

 

Aaron

Edited December 22, 2011 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Not exactly related to this thread, but I wonder reading a lot of your posts, do you practice something - meditation, yoga, energy work or any of the classical/structured systems?

 

I practiced silent mind meditation for twenty years. I also studied the Tao Teh Ching for as long. I recently took a break from it. I went to college for psychology (and English) and studied under a professor who was trained in hypnosis by Milton H. Erickson, so as a result I learned about hypnosis from him and I've been practicing it and a bit of visualization exercises for a little over 15 years. I use visualization to engage in energy practices. Other than that, I'm just your average, run of the mill Tao Bum.

 

Aaron

 

edit- As a side note I did practice (or believed I practiced) Taoism for a long time, but upon closer examination eventually came to the decision to learn about other philosophies as well. I studied a bit of Zen for a couple years, and I am fond of Zen, but my favorite religion has to be Vedanta. Vedanta is just beautiful, no other way to say it. Anyways, I hope that answers your question.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Twinner

[JustARandomPanda]

I have often wondered why some people hit the REPLY button only to make the point of their post being about how irrelevant the topic discussed is.

 

If you *really* think thought is something that can not be discussed or answered in a thread why bother to post that reply at all?

 

In any case I disagree with the 'leave such questions alone' people. If such advice were heeded science and engineering would not be what it has become today. Neuroscience would not be what it is today.

 

The Dalai Lama engages in discussions on the nature of consciousness, awareness, thoughts, etc often with scientists from around the world so obviously he thinks there's something useful about doing so and he doesn't strike me as a noob when it comes to daily Tantra, inner Alchemy and meditation practices.

 

I think the question Twinner asked is perfectly good one to ask.

[.broken.]

I don't think there ever was a beginning. Time is held within eternity and consciousness is eternal.

[zanshin]

However life forms began, that's when I think conciousness began. First primitive one celled things didn't think and want like we do of course, but somehow they had that drive to live, do, grow and replicate. Rocks never cared if they were pulverized or slowly ground down by erosion, most still don't, and that is beautiful. The sky and ocean wouldn't care either, but somehow even inanimate things became embedded and intertwined with conciousness of life.

[konchog uma]

If you *really* think thought is something that can not be discussed or answered in a thread why bother to post that reply at all?

 

hahah i'm afraid i never said anything of the sort.

 

thought is fine, but trying to talk about what causal source it came from is pointless. Since it is necessary to understand the pointlessness of it in order to avoid wasting energy trying to ascribe a beginning to something that may well be beginningless, or trying to ascribe meaning to something the meaning of which may be totally arbitrary, or trying to talk about a source that, well can't be talked about.

 

So i hope that answers your question. My sincerest apologies for the tone of that post, i was really grumpy about a personal matter, i shouldn't have brought it here. But coarse language and inappropriate attitude aside, the point that i was making stands. Probably why laotzu mentioned it first. I think i'm done talking about it though, as it seems to be quite unpopular. Maybe something great will come from talking about it, who am i to say

[Aaron]

Hey Serene (or is it blue?),

 

As an aside, I went to your deviant art page and I must say I love your artwork. You're a very talented artist. The dolphin peace is especially nice.

 

Aaron

Edited December 22, 2011 by Twinner