doc benway Posted December 22, 2011 Thank you. So, I need to know the exact English definitions of both of them, so as to give my opinions on them. Can you please do that for me? No, I cannot. Zen and meditation do not lend themselves to exact definition. To define means to limit, to encapsulate something within a boundary of some sort, to capture the essence and meaning of something in a phrase, concept, or idea. Zen and meditation are what is left when one drops words, concepts, and ideas. They are not limited or encapsulated. Certainly there are meditative exercises that can be defined, such as the Daoist methods I practice and the the few examples you mentioned, but I don't consider that meditation - just practice. Zen and meditation are a state of being that can occur when defintitions and the process of measurement, judgement, and analysis are not actively operating but that is not to say that this is a definition of what Zen or meditation are. This is what they are not. If you were to practice either, there would be no need to discuss defining them. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted December 22, 2011 Many ancient sages said that meditation is a bad way for pursue Dao. can you cite a source? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted December 22, 2011 No, I cannot. Zen and meditation do not lend themselves to exact definition. To define means to limit, to encapsulate something within a boundary of some sort, to capture the essence and meaning of something in a phrase, concept, or idea. Zen and meditation are what is left when one drops words, concepts, and ideas. They are not limited or encapsulated. Certainly there are meditative exercises that can be defined, such as the Daoist methods I practice and the the few examples you mentioned, but I don't consider that meditation - just practice. Zen and meditation are a state of being that can occur when defintitions and the process of measurement, judgement, and analysis are not actively operating but that is not to say that this is a definition of what Zen or meditation are. This is what they are not. If you were to practice either, there would be no need to discuss defining them. Thank you for your reply! Maybe you can give me a typical example for meditataion in practising Taoism? Or just tell me what kind of practice are you engaged in? Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted December 22, 2011 can you cite a source? That is just a idea which came after I have read lots of books written by sages. So, if you want exact cite, it will need sometime for me to search. But before that, I need to confirm what is meditation you guys think. Because it seems that I misunderstand the concept as somebody mentioned here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 22, 2011 Lao Tzu... Zen is 禪, a Chinese Buddhist term. Western term Meditation is 打坐(zazen) as a Chinese Taoist term. In the western world, people are mixing both terms together as they were mixing both Taoism and Buddhism in their thoughts. PS... No offense to all the Westerners, this is only my gut feeling and from what I had gathered here... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) Lao Tzu... Zen is 禪, a Chinese Buddhist term. Western term Meditation is 打坐(zazen) as a Chinese Taoist term. In the western world, people are mixing both terms together as they were mixing both Taoism and Buddhism in their thoughts. PS... No offense to all the Westerners, this is only my gut feeling and from what I had gathered here... Usually, when they are zazening(打坐)，they are thinking of sth rather than the spirit of the Taoism, or just trying to keep their minds empty, right? If it is ture, then that is not a good way to practise Tao. Edited December 22, 2011 by Lao Tzu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted December 22, 2011 Yeah, but if you think about before you ever tried any of this meditation thing. What was that like? Good point -K- I dunno. I guess because I'm so much an "in my head" person. I am addicted to thoughts - even thoughts about thoughts (if that makes sense). Always analyzing, categorizing, systematizing, concluding, etc... [if you're familiar with Meyers-Briggs I test as an INTP] Which I suppose from one point of view is still of course only possible in the "now". But one thing I notice I don't do while doing all those aforementioned things is simply notice stuff and let that be enough. Does that make sense? Anyway...can't speak for anyone else but meditation has helped me to relax a little on the always "being in my head". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokona Posted December 22, 2011 If this is so true why do daoist monks spend 6+ hours a day meditating? Why do they go on meditation retreats that sometimes last years. If it's so useless why does almost every religion in the world practice meditation of some form. Why do the highest level practitioners spend most of their days doing meditation? Something don't add up to a full stack of pancakes. What a crock of shit. Unless you can show me tangible proof WTF would anyone agree with a topic that's so ridiculous. Without any proof except that you claim high level sages have uttered such bullshit They should give me the title of thread killer. Once I comment the thread goes dead. That's not going to make me go away though. I will continue to call people on their bullshit. I don't just agree with people's bullshit. Either show proof or don't make such an outrageously ridiculous thread. UpMod+5 I've made progress with the tool of meditation. My grandpa is ancient, but I don't listen to everything he says. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted December 22, 2011 No, I cannot. Zen and meditation do not lend themselves to exact definition. To define means to limit, to encapsulate something within a boundary of some sort, to capture the essence and meaning of something in a phrase, concept, or idea. Zen and meditation are what is left when one drops words, concepts, and ideas. They are not limited or encapsulated. Certainly there are meditative exercises that can be defined, such as the Daoist methods I practice and the the few examples you mentioned, but I don't consider that meditation - just practice. Zen and meditation are a state of being that can occur when defintitions and the process of measurement, judgement, and analysis are not actively operating but that is not to say that this is a definition of what Zen or meditation are. This is what they are not. If you were to practice either, there would be no need to discuss defining them. thanks steve +1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
suninmyeyes Posted December 22, 2011 Many ancient sages said that meditation is a bad way for pursue Dao. Actually they may have been right, becouse when a state of meditation occurs pursuing of anything is impossible. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted December 22, 2011 Actually they may have been right, becouse when a state of meditation occurs pursuing of anything is impossible. Let us talk based on my point: If you want practice Taoism, the best way is not meditation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted December 22, 2011 Let us talk based on my point: If you want practice Taoism, the best way is not meditation. Please see my response to you in your other thread -- Qi Gong Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 22, 2011 Let us talk based on my point: If you want practice Taoism, the best way is not meditation. Loa Tzu... What are you saying....??? Where did you get that idea.....??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted December 22, 2011 um actually, where do you get an impression that meditation has something to do with taosim in the first place, guys Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 22, 2011 A Chinese Taoist does zazen with breathing exercise to absorb Chi from nature to enhance his vitality for longevity. Meditation is the wrong word for zazen. However, it was the closest word in English for zazen. During zazen, a Taoist seems like he was in deep thought but it was not. Actually, he was in deep breathing and manipulating Chi inside his body. All these talk about Micro Orbit, Macro Orbit, meridians and Chi sunk to the dan tien are all imaginary terms used by the Chinese Taoists in describing the process of Chi Kung. That was what they think it was taken place inside the body. The term "meditation" does not relate to breathing in western thinking; but the term "zazen" does to a Chinese Taoist anyway. I think this is how all the confusions got started. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted December 22, 2011 If this is so true why do daoist monks spend 6+ hours a day meditating? Why do they go on meditation retreats that sometimes last years. If it's so useless why does almost every religion in the world practice meditation of some form. Why do the highest level practitioners spend most of their days doing meditation? Something don't add up to a full stack of pancakes. What a crock of shit. Unless you can show me tangible proof WTF would anyone agree with a topic that's so ridiculous. Without any proof except that you claim high level sages have uttered such bullshit They should give me the title of thread killer. Once I comment the thread goes dead. That's not going to make me go away though. I will continue to call people on their bullshit. I don't just agree with people's bullshit. Either show proof or don't make such an outrageously ridiculous thread. Hey buddy, it's good to see someone is still fighting the good fight against BS and disinformation on this board! If you want to achieve a high level, it's all about daily concentrated hard internal work! Intelectual masterbating or "letting it happen" will bring you nowhere! Moving energy from point A to point B through using your focused consciousness and intent is the key in any system that leads you toward the Tao! Right now I feel my tantien vibrating, my bones buzzing and hear my channels humming! Guess why! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted December 22, 2011 Many meditation methods may not be Taoist in nature at all "The Tao is natural. All forced manipulations and concoctions are in vain. Some people guard their minds and settle their ideas and thoughts, some people hold their breath and keep it in the abdomen, some people perform psychosomatic energy-circulation exercises. When these people come to the end of their lives and find everything they did was useless, they will resent the gods, also uselessly." - Liu I-Ming 'Awakening to the Tao' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted December 22, 2011 That is just a idea which came after I have read lots of books written by sages. well thats a bit different than saying "Many ancient sages said that meditation is a bad way for pursue Dao." i think that meditation is not the problem, its good for so many things, it speaks for itself. I think the problem is trying to pursue dao. If you put down the idea of "pursue", you will find that the dao is already around you and within you right now, and that what you have been pursuing has already found you. Which is no excuse to stop meditating. Its a good reason to start actually So, if you want exact cite, it will need sometime for me to search. But before that, I need to confirm what is meditation you guys think. Because it seems that I misunderstand the concept as somebody mentioned here. its a broad concept with many different methodologies.. which makes it all the harder to make blanket statements about ?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaughingNumbSkull Posted December 23, 2011 Could you give me a typical example of meditation? And based on that, I will try to show you the proof. The skeleton meditation. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted December 23, 2011 Thank you for your reply! Maybe you can give me a typical example for meditataion in practising Taoism? Or just tell me what kind of practice are you engaged in? Thanks. You are welcome. The system I study is called 崑崙仙蹤派. The most basic practice is 小周天. Out of respect for my teacher, I'm not comfortable sharing any of the more advanced practices. How about you? What kind of practice are you engaged in? Actually they may have been right, becouse when a state of meditation occurs pursuing of anything is impossible. That is the state of meditation I am referring to. And yet, I also think that it does become possible to rest in a state of true meditation while engaging in 'meditative practices' or doing anything else, for that matter. The meditative state does not exclude the possibility of attentive activity because it is always already there and is all encompassing. Mental constructs cannot contain or define that state but rather arise within it. But it is easier to get distracted and lose contact with that state when engaged in activity. This is what mindfulness practice is about. As we become more comfortable and familiar with accessing that state and we allow it to penetrate and perfuse our daily lives, one can pursue and not pursue simultaneously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted December 23, 2011 Many meditation methods may not be Taoist in nature at all "The Tao is natural. All forced manipulations and concoctions are in vain. Some people guard their minds and settle their ideas and thoughts, some people hold their breath and keep it in the abdomen, some people perform psychosomatic energy-circulation exercises. When these people come to the end of their lives and find everything they did was useless, they will resent the gods, also uselessly." - Liu I-Ming 'Awakening to the Tao' you got a good point! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted December 23, 2011 You are welcome. The system I study is called 崑崙仙蹤派. The most basic practice is 小周天. Out of respect for my teacher, I'm not comfortable sharing any of the more advanced practices. How about you? What kind of practice are you engaged in? I am engaged in "find true self and the turth of the nature" I don't think your way is a good way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted December 23, 2011 The skeleton meditation. I have no idea about this. Can you explain it to me please? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted December 23, 2011 I am engaged in "find true self and the turth of the nature" I don't think your way is a good way. Thank you for your unsolicited opinion. I think your way is most excellent! Good luck to you 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted December 23, 2011 Loa Tzu... What are you saying....??? Where did you get that idea.....??? I got that idea from the books which were written by some sages in ancient China. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
