Meditation is not a good way for practising

[konchog uma]

if you watched that video you would see that mr chang can actually do something beyond just talk and theory, and he gained his union with himself and with the dao through hours and hours of... you guessed it.... meditation!

 

john chang can light a fire with his hand and stop a bullet. All you can do is quote zhang ziyang and say that he equates to hundreds of sages, all of whom warn to abolish meditation because it is not dao. When asked for further clarification, you say that it is because meditation is doing something with your mind. Well, some is and some amn't. You assume that nobody can attain the state of wu wei and so your solution is to stop sitting entirely.

 

John chang can heal the sick without medicine, and when he gets bored of doing that, he sticks a chopstick through 2 inches of wood for fun. Who CARES if he is truly immortal or not, he is proof of the benefits of meditation, thats the point.

 

There are actually immortals you know, and they didn't get there just by giving up on their practices and wandering aimlessly practicing non-doing. If that worked, then every lazy bum would live to be 400. The immortals and accomplished people of dao achieved their success by internal cultivation. Neidan, as zhang ziyang writes about, is accomplished through meditation, not without it. The internal elixir does not just appear on its own when you stop trying to do anything and wander carefreely! I wish it were so, but it isn't!!

 

[ChiDragon]

What kind of teacher can be the proper teacher for teaching meditation?

The answer is only sages can be the teachers.

So before you learn from a "teacher", you must make sure he or she is a sage. Do you know how to judge if a person is a sage or not?

 

We could take a risk Only when we think the risk is worth to take on account of the potential benefit.

The risk that you were talking about is 走火入廆, "run fire enter the devil"...???

Edited December 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[konchog uma]

不可执以无为， It cannot be just carried out without accomplishment,

不可行于有作， It cannot be executed with intent,

不可泥于存想， It cannot just bury the thoughts in the mud,

不可着于持守， It cannot be just conservative,

不可枯坐灰心， It cannot be just sitting and discouraged,

不可盲修瞎炼。 It cannot be blindly practiced and fanatically cultivated.

 

thank you chidragon, btw

 

i just wanted to point out that in that passage, it does not say anything about not meditating.

 

While it does say "it cannot be just sitting and discouraged", there is an "it" that is mentioned in each line that we have no idea what that is since the quote is taken out of context. We could assume that it is the cultivation of the internal elixir since the book is called 400 words on neidan, but that would be an assumption. Until we know, i think the basis of this whole thread is comPLETEly bunk.

 

To me, this whole line of thinking is clearly ridiculous... I for one don't care how many books by sages you have read mr. tzu, i think that you misunderstand the ancient texts and are putting forth false ideas.

[Thunder_Gooch]

WTF is wrong with you? Why would you post something like this, regardless of the topic? I could accept the first one, but did you ever think some kids might be on this forum. I don't want to see this shit, so I'm certain a parent wouldn't want their kids too either. Did you even think before you put this image up?

 

Aaron

 

Sorry maybe I am just desensitized, exploding heads is pretty standard stuff for me. It was from the movie scanners, it wasn't an actual head exploding.

[ChiDragon]

Anamatva...

You are welcome, my open-minded friend........

 

The "it" was referred to "neidan" practiced by a Taoist, named 张紫阳(Zhang Zi Yang).

Edited December 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Aaron]

Sorry maybe I am just desensitized, exploding heads is pretty standard stuff for me. It was from the movie scanners, it wasn't an actual head exploding.

 

No worries... it was pretty graphic for my tastes. I don't watch horror movies anymore, so seeing something like that made be a bit sick to my stomach. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it. Sorry for the irate post.

 

Aaron

[Friend]

Edited December 26, 2011 by Friend

[Lao Tzu]

if you watched that video you would see that mr chang can actually do something beyond just talk and theory, and he gained his union with himself and with the dao through hours and hours of... you guessed it.... meditation!

john chang can light a fire with his hand and stop a bullet. All you can do is quote zhang ziyang and say that he equates to hundreds of sages, all of whom warn to abolish meditation because it is not dao. When asked for further clarification, you say that it is because meditation is doing something with your mind. Well, some is and some amn't. You assume that nobody can attain the state of wu wei and so your solution is to stop sitting entirely.

John chang can heal the sick without medicine, and when he gets bored of doing that, he sticks a chopstick through 2 inches of wood for fun. Who CARES if he is truly immortal or not, he is proof of the benefits of meditation, thats the point.

There are actually immortals you know, and they didn't get there just by giving up on their practices and wandering aimlessly practicing non-doing. If that worked, then every lazy bum would live to be 400. The immortals and accomplished people of dao achieved their success by internal cultivation. Neidan, as zhang ziyang writes about, is accomplished through meditation, not without it. The internal elixir does not just appear on its own when you stop trying to do anything and wander carefreely! I wish it were so, but it isn't!!

I don't think that is what a sage looks like, and you can not certify he is an immortal, right? Then why someone here said he is an immortal?

 

Plus, a video can often be used to cheat, so it is not a strong proof.

 

Practice doesn't mean you have to do the meditation; that is a misunderstanding for practice.

 

How do you know that Neidan, as zhang ziyang writes about, must be accomplished through meditation, not without it? Yes, maybe someone can do NeiDan by meditation, but it must be under the instruction of a sage. Otherwise, it is useless or/and harmful.

[Lao Tzu]

The risk that you were talking about, is 走火入廆, "run fire enter the devil"...???

Yes, Something like that.

[ChiDragon]

I don't think that is what a sage looks like, and you can not certify he is an immortal, right? Then why someone here said he is an immortal?

 

Plus, a video can often be used to cheat, so it is not a strong proof.

 

Practice doesn't mean you have to do the meditation; that is a misunderstanding for practice.

 

How do you know that Neidan, as zhang ziyang writes about, must be accomplished through meditation, not without it? Yes, maybe someone can do NeiDan by meditation, but it must be under the instruction of a sage. Otherwise, it is useless or/and harmful.

 

IMO Perhaps people are confused Neidan as meditation. It should be taught by a Taoist rather than a sage.

 

 

P.S.......

Lao Tzu, you should be more specific and use the right terminology in your presentations; so people will know exactly what you meant....

Edited December 26, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Lao Tzu]

P.S.......

Lao Tzu, you should be more specific and use the right terminology in your presentations; so people will know exactly what you meant....

I am trying to do that, but it is limited by my English level.

[Protector]

That's because you haven't presented your understandings so I can challenge you on them. I can offer you even more fun if you give me the opportunity. Hehehe.

 

I'm still waiting for all the answers to all the questions I asked in this thread

 

Oh well, everyone else seems to me running out of stamina so I might as well

Let's push my definition of meditation a little further first. Meditation is a tool that you learn of and use in your daily life to create change inside yourself using your mind. That is not my definition, that how I see people use it. In meditation, people become antennas and use mudras, mantras, and guides to pick up frequencies of things they want to call upon and make them a part of themselves. For example to remove stress, add more of a good thing to make the bad leave by itself. There's a mudra for that and a mantra. A person can also skip that and think of marshmallows . A person can also remove all the bad things that are already inside using meditation and take control, and then without having any restrictions, become free .

With meditation all the things that hold you down can be removed, or added if you want. It's not all that necessary thought. With enough meditating you will notice that you always had what you needed to understand the world. If only you could turn back time and tell yourself that before you started meditating for all these years . It's all about noticing the right thing, then you flip a switch and you become zen. Change happens when you need it, when food falls into your extended hand when you're hungry, and you are just at the right place at the right time all the time. All it actually takes is this.

 

But that's just my humble opinion

 

Edited December 26, 2011 by Sinfest

[Birch]

I'm behind you :-)

[ChiDragon]

Everybody has a definition about "meditation". Why can't LaoTzu have one of his own too...??? Even though he did express what his definition was. I think he indicated by:

金丹四百字(the Golden Pill in four hundred characters).

 

Besides, his definition is completely different for the rest of you. He was not able to express himself due a language barrier. If one understood what is the meaning of Golden Alchemy from its

origin instead of using one's own multi-definition, then this thread would be precious as gold and beneficial. If one was looking only at one side of the story with one eye opened, then it will cause further damage to one's vision even more.

[Aaron]

It's alright Lao Tzu, you can believe anything you want to. I don't care if you want to meditate, or believe it's not a good way to practice.

 

Also, seeing how hard it is to learn English as a native Chinese speaker, I think you're doing a very good job communicating with us. So those people making fun of your grammar, just think of them as the jerks who like to make fun of people that are smaller than them. They deserve about as much respect.

 

 

Aaron

[Lao Tzu]

It's alright Lao Tzu, you can believe anything you want to. I don't care if you want to meditate, or believe it's not a good way to practice.

 

Also, seeing how hard it is to learn English as a native Chinese speaker, I think you're doing a very good job communicating with us. So those people making fun of your grammar, just think of them as the jerks who like to make fun of people that are smaller than them. They deserve about as much respect.

 

 

Aaron

I know, I know, it doesn't matter.

[Marblehead]

 

Let's push my definition of meditation a little further first. ...

 

One thing came to my mind while reading your post and it is something I have said a few time: "The answers to your questions lie within yourself. All you have to do is find them."

 

Yeah, I think that one use for meditation would be in trying to understand ourself - why we do the things we do and why we react to stimulus the way we do.

[suninmyeyes]

Meditation happens and cannot be practised (IMO).

It is different state of being than normal waking, sleep or dream state most people expirience. Yet it can incorporate all of those states.

However just sitting and various different practises - energetic or visualisation are called meditation also becouse they may lead to meditational state, change of personal frequency to more universal.

As well as unfortunate lack of shades of common vocabulary for such terms.

Edited December 26, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[Thunder_Gooch]

I don't wish to cause anyone problems or make them sick. I get angry sometimes, and don't fully consider consequences of my actions. I am sincerely sorry and will try to be more considerate in the future. For what it is worth I am very squeamish when it comes to blood and guts in real life, I got very sick dissecting a cat in anatomy and physiology. I don't watch much horror, scanners was about psychic warfare.

 

No worries... it was pretty graphic for my tastes. I don't watch horror movies anymore, so seeing something like that made be a bit sick to my stomach. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it. Sorry for the irate post.

 

Aaron

Edited December 27, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Aetherous]

The internal elixir does not just appear on its own when you stop trying to do anything and wander carefreely!

 

You'd be surprised.

[konchog uma]

I don't think that is what a sage looks like, and you can not certify he is an immortal, right? Then why someone here said he is an immortal?

 

Plus, a video can often be used to cheat, so it is not a strong proof.

 

Practice doesn't mean you have to do the meditation; that is a misunderstanding for practice.

 

How do you know that Neidan, as zhang ziyang writes about, must be accomplished through meditation, not without it? Yes, maybe someone can do NeiDan by meditation, but it must be under the instruction of a sage. Otherwise, it is useless or/and harmful.

 

1. i don't know why anyone says anything

 

2. sure

 

3. ok

 

4. since you seem to say the same things over and over, and since i have already read them once and responded, i don't have anything new to offer either. i guess we just disagree in our methodology. best wishes to you in your practice, or non-practice, whatever the case may be.

[dawei]

LZ: I can appreciate what your trying to say but it comes across as very categorical, regardless if it was sages who said it... and I should clear up one thing that nobody has called you on:

 

Zhang Ziyang as an 'ancient sage'... I don't think so. The Song Dynasty isn't 'ancient' in my view. He was a master of inner Alchemy... And the guy gave himself to Buddhism later in life and continued to write books... He is described in one of the links below as "a Song Dynasty scholar of the Three teachings (Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism)." That is probably more accurate.

 

Your error is a very simple but subtle point; your lumping everyone and every possible experience together as part of your point. Just because someone wrote something in the past which showed why meditation may not be the best (or harm-free) technique, it does not mean that everyone in the world was the intended reader of the advice and that everyone should strictly follow it. Why would someone in today's climate have a lifestyle and environment similar to that of a Song Dynasty person? If there are environmental or personal (mental, emotional) differences then you would understand why methods are different too; There are many roads which can successful assist people in their energetic and spiritual pursuits and there are many different goals or lengths one wants to go. THERE IS NOT ONE MANUAL FOR THE WORLD on how to do it.

 

If you can understand this question I ask you, then I think you will understand why your position is faulty:

 

Why do chinese tend to show better results as a patient of acupuncture than westerners?

 

In other words: What makes a chinese patient different than a western patient when it comes to eastern approaches to medicine (or other arts)?

 

 

 

 

For those interested, a few links:

Wuzhen Pian

 

The Inner Teachings of Taosim

 

Awakening to Reality

[konchog uma]

You'd be surprised.

 

great point

 

but im still gonna meditate

[Aetherous]

Me too

 

The discussion in this book on "superior virtue" versus "inferior virtue" deals with this.

[konchog uma]

Me too

 

The discussion in this book on "superior virtue" versus "inferior virtue" deals with this.

 

i keep meaning to buy that book.

 

I have to admit that wu wei is an important part of the process by all accounts i have heard. But i don't think thats all there is to it.

 

nice link, i think i'm gonna buy that book