Meditation is not a good way for practising

[dawei]

DDJ = Dao De Jing (道 德 經). Some may write TTC instead (Tao Te Ching).

[ChiDragon]

DDJ(Dao De Jing) and TTC(Tao Te Ching) are 道德經.

 

Welcome the confusing world of the west. Lao Tzu.....

Edited December 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

You gotta be kidding, right ?

He has openly admitted his English short-comings... so no reason to think he must know all shorts of short-hand acronyms.

[Lao Tzu]

I think I speak on behalf of most of us here. We honestly want to hear why you believe we are wrong.

We realize that you have trouble with translating to English.

Many people here are good with Chinese as well as English, and can help translate.

I for one would very much like to hear why we are wrong, and what your reasons are for saying this.

Please use Chinese to communicate if it is easier for you.

I will try my best to discuss, and thank you for your comprehension.

[lifeforce]

started to practise according to the books...

 

Bah !

Burn all your holy books and experience the Dao, as it is, without any interpretation or opinion.

[Lao Tzu]

DDJ = Dao De Jing (道 德 經). Some may write TTC instead (Tao Te Ching).

Thanks, I just know TTC from here, not DDJ, lol

[lifeforce]

He has openly admitted his English short-comings... so no reason to think he must know all shorts of short-hand acronyms.

 

Yes, but he can write damn good English, so I take it he is good at reading it also. The DDJ is all over these forums.

[Lao Tzu]

Bah !

Burn all your holy books and experience the Dao, as it is, without any interpretation or opinion.

We really need the books before we grasp the spirit of the Dao. And sometimes we need them to remind us of the spirit as well.

But yes, when you become a sage(immortal), you can burn them. But wait, you should leave them to the people who hasn't understand the Dao.

[dawei]

Well the no-meditation opinion is also what drives the Actual Freedom people.

 

It seems their practise is about being happy all the time and thus short-circuit the brain somehow.

 

This is done not on the cushion but in realtime and maybe it is like Lao Tzu means?

 

http://actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/actualfreedom3.htm

 

 

 

is more or less their method combined with cultivating naivete.

 

This is an interesting point since there was a comment many pages ago which caught my attention but I did not ask more about:

 

WuWei doesn't mean mindless doing something, it means doing anything without caring. So in such a state, everthing is OK, no desire, no worry, no pain, always happy. That is coming back to nature, be united with Dao.

 

When I saw "everthing is OK, no desire, no worry, no pain, always happy." I really wondered what was the reason for "always happy" since it is still clinging to some goal or ideal.

[Lao Tzu]

This is an interesting point since there was a comment many pages ago which caught my attention but I did not ask more about:

 

 

 

When I saw "everthing is OK, no desire, no worry, no pain, always happy." I really wondered what was the reason for "always happy" since it is still clinging to some goal or ideal.

No desire, no pain.

This is the idea from another LaoZi's book whose name is "Qing Jing Jing"(清静经)

[dawei]

Thanks, I just know TTC from here, not DDJ, lol

The TTC usage is based on an out-dated notation called "Wade-Giles". This is replaced by the more often used Pinyin... but some Wades-Giles notation still gets used by some. I almost always prefer to use Pinyin since it will be more recognizable by chinese.

 

Here is a reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade%E2%80%93Giles

[Lao Tzu]

Qing Jing Jing(清静经)原文

 

老君曰大道无形生育天地大道无情运行日月大道无名 长养万物。 吾不知其名强名曰道。夫道者有清有浊有动有静。天清地浊男清女浊 男动女静。降本流末而生万物。清者浊之源动者静之基。 人能常清静天地悉皆归 。夫人神好清而心扰之人心好静而欲牵之。常能遣其欲而心自静澄其心而神自清自然六欲不生三毒消灭。所以不能者为心未澄欲未遣也。能遣之者内观其心心无其心外观其形形无其形远观其物物无其物。三者既无惟见於空。观空亦空空无所空所空既无无无亦无 无无既无湛然常寂。 寂无所寂 欲岂能生欲既不生即是真静。 真常应物 真常得性 常应常静 常清静矣 。如此清静渐入真道。既入真道名为得道。虽名得道 实无所得 为化众生 名为得道。 能悟之者可传圣道。

 

上士无争下士好争上德不德下德执德。执着之者不名道德。众生所以不得真道者为有妄心。既有妄心 即惊其神。既惊其神即着万物即生贪求。 既生贪求即是烦恼。烦恼妄想忧苦身心便遭浊辱流浪生死常沉苦海永失真道。真常之道悟者自得。得悟之者常清静矣

Edited December 27, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[Lao Tzu]

[dawei]

No desire, no pain.

This is the idea from another LaoZi's book whose name is "Qing Jing Jing"(清静经)

Are you offering up another book for possible translation?

 

Here is an interesting translation by Livia Kohn:

 

http://silkqin.com/02qnpu/27sjts/sj03qjj.htm

[johndoe2012]

No desire, no pain.

This is the idea from another LaoZi's book whose name is "Qing Jing Jing"(清静经)

 

aha, I had a hunch that Actual Freedom was actual a rediscovery of an ancient technique

 

The thing is the Dao is much more than that. The Actual Freedom method does not open the channels and all the energy centers, maybe it is to be considered a Heart practise?

[ChiDragon]

[Lao Tzu]

FYI....

Qing Jing Jing(清靜經) was not written by LaoTze. The author was unknown.

It doesn't matter. And it is not the point.

[ChiDragon]

It doesn't matter. And it is not the point.

 

It matters to get the fact straight. You are in the western public. Otherwise, you'll get stepped allover....

[Lao Tzu]

It matters to get the fact straight. You are in the western public. Otherwise, you'll get stepped allover....

It is a history problem. We can not fix that, so let us focus on the book and the words of the book and the spirit of the words.

[konchog uma]

I'm afraid to ask, but why do you think that daoists have always meditated? If hundreds of sages warned against meditation, why is daoism a meditative tradition?

 

Do you suppose that you have gleaned the meaning of the true dao and that millions of chinese throughout history have been wrong? Heiroglyphs and cave paintings of people in lotus posture, and you come along with one idea gleaned from i-haven't-personally-been-able-to-figure-out-where, and think you know better than your ancestors and their ancestors as far back as we have human record?!? And you're not even open to the idea that you might be wrong?@#! hehehe "you can agree with me only after you've read hundreds of books in chinese" ummm the single solitary quote you cited didn't even say not to meditate! it was in a book ABOUT meditation! i am sooo confused.

 

All colors of people have meditative techniques, back to their respective shamanic traditions and beyond, people have sat and let their minds still, let their energies circulate and cultivate, let their spirits thrive.

 

I don't need to read a single text in chinese to figure out what the whole of human history has taught our race by experience, which is that meditation is really really good for you, if you want to dissolve the limited self and experience the greater reality. In china they called it dao, but its universal.

 

whew!! I can't believe I'm still posting on this thread. So all that commentary aside, i am really curious... why do you think that at daoist monasteries they have always practiced so much meditation?

[dawei]

It is a history problem. We can not fix that, so let us focus on the book and the words of the book and the spirit of the words.

Exactly... it doesn't matter if he wrote it or not... just as it does not matter whether or not LaoZi actually wrote the DDJ.

[Protector]

I know that listening to yourself talk is veeeeeery fun but listening to other people can also be educational, I lost all interest now and will come back when people learn to do that

[Lao Tzu]

I'm afraid to ask, but why do you think that daoists have always meditated? If hundreds of sages warned against meditation, why is daoism a meditative tradition?

 

Do you suppose that you have gleaned the meaning of the true dao and that millions of chinese throughout history have been wrong? Heiroglyphs and cave paintings of people in lotus posture, and you come along with one idea gleaned from i-haven't-personally-been-able-to-figure-out-where, and think you know better than your ancestors and their ancestors as far back as we have human record?!? And you're not even open to the idea that you might be wrong?@#! hehehe "you can agree with me only after you've read hundreds of books in chinese" ummm the single solitary quote you cited didn't even say not to meditate! it was in a book ABOUT meditation! i am sooo confused.

 

All colors of people have meditative techniques, back to their respective shamanic traditions and beyond, people have sat and let their minds still, let their energies circulate and cultivate, let their spirits thrive.

 

I don't need to read a single text in chinese to figure out what the whole of human history has taught our race by experience, which is that meditation is really really good for you, if you want to dissolve the limited self and experience the greater reality. In china they called it dao, but its universal.

 

whew!! I can't believe I'm still posting on this thread. So all that commentary aside, i am really curious... why do you think that at daoist monasteries they have always practiced so much meditation?

Don't afraid of asking. Ask me whatever you want to ask.

The reality is even in China, majority of the people can not grasp the real spirit of the Dao, and doing the meditation.

I think the reason is that the sages wrote tons of books to teach people how to get Dao. In order to do that, they used metaphors a lot, just like bible. But meanwhile, it lead to misunderstanding, because lots of readers focus on the superficial meanings of the words. Plus, there are truely some meditations used by some sages, BUT, it must be taught by real immortals, because the laws of Dao in one's body is really "meticulous", it can be easy to result in harm without the instruction of a sage. Fortunately, we can acheive Dao without meditation. The method was mentioned in the books, and was given by me here.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[konchog uma]

Don't afraid of asking. Ask me whatever you want to ask.

The reality is even in China, majority of the people can not grasp the real spirit of the Dao, and doing the meditation.

I think the reason is that the sages wrote tons of books to teach people how to get Dao. In order to do that, they used metaphors a lot, just like bible. But meanwhile, it lead to misunderstanding, because lots of readers focus on the superficial meanings of the words. Plus, there are truely some meditations used by some sages, BUT, it must be taught by real immortals, because the laws of Dao in one's body is really "meticulous", it can be easy to result in harm without the instruction of a sage. Fortunately, we can acheive Dao without meditation. The method was mentioned in the books, and was given by me here.

 

I've never heard anything like that before.

[lifeforce]

Fortunately, we can acheive Dao without meditation.

 

How can you or anyone achieve the Dao ?

The Dao is beyond conceptualization or even description.

One can only wonder at it's myriad manifestations.