Meditation is not a good way for practising

[lifeforce]

Exactly... it doesn't matter if he wrote it or not... just as it does not matter whether or not LaoZi actually wrote the DDJ.

 

What's the DDJ ?

[dawei]

there are truely some meditations used by some sages, BUT, it must be taught by real immortals, because the laws of Dao in one's body is really "meticulous", it can be easy to result in harm without the instruction of a sage. Fortunately, we can acheive Dao without meditation. The method was mentioned in the books, and was given by me here.

I like how you have clearly stated your point here. If you had started the thread with the above, I think it would of been received much better than stating meditation is the wrong way. Thanks for not completely leaving.

[Lao Tzu]

How can you or anyone achieve the Dao ?

The Dao is beyond conceptualization or even description.

One can only wonder at it's myriad manifestations.

Achievement doesn/t mean conceptualization or description.

Dao is everywhere, you just did not notice or realize it.

You are a part of the Dao, and you are a manifestation of Dao.

If your mind can keep correspondence with Dao, you are actually "achieving it".

[Lao Tzu]

The fact is that it is almost impossible for us to find a immortal to teach us, so let us use the natural way for practising Dao. That is the best way like the sages told us, and no risk would be there.

[Lao Tzu]

I like how you have clearly stated your point here. If you had started the thread with the above, I think it would of been received much better than stating meditation is the wrong way. Thanks for not completely leaving.

People can know each other better while time passes by.

[effilang]

I know what you are talking about.

But it is not natural, because in order to do that,you must keep in a certain status with your mind and body, it is conflict with the spirit of the Dao. You are supposed to experience Dao all the time in all your activities.

 

How can one who has not attained the Tao themselves, dictate the spirit of the Tao?

 

You are all wrapped up in concepts. We think because we grasp the words of the sages in their writings, that we fully comprehend the unquantifiable experiences from which they draw their inspiration to communicate?

 

The mere words we possess in our diction can never truly accurately represent genuine spiritual experiences. I've had them, they are beyond the senses. When you try to speak of them, your tongue blocks. A great artist and a sage can but hope that with his words at least something of the whole is understood. It is not by chance that every teaching is an instruction, it is not by chance that they hurry us into practice. Because there is only one truth, and they know damn well their personal interpretations will never accurately represent the reality of what Tao is. Every teaching is an instruction to practice, so that you may with hard work yourself too experience it.

 

No wise sage claims their way is the way. Not Buddha not Lao Tzu. They all show you the path, but the destination, the TAO always remains a personal experience. Leading you to the path is the best they can do.

 

To sit here and discuss what is the Tao and what isn't, you both look like fools on either side of the fence. Who here is an immortal or such a high level meditator that they have the right to preach to others of what the Tao is. When did you last enter the void, when did non-duality engulf you and embrace you completely, that you are so certain of your convictions.

 

Let us not forget a very basic concept:

 

 

 

 

Everything that is a product of the Tao, which sits below in the hierarchy has the essence of the TAO embedded in them.

 

That means that any manifestation of the 2 poles and 4 phenomena has the potential to lead you back to the Tao, after the essence of the TAO, THROUGH meditation/concentration/contemplation has been pin pointed in the product of the phenomena.

 

That means that sound, thought, feeling, sight, smell... any product of the 4/5 elements THROUGH concentration can have the essence of the TAO discovered within them. Whether you're chanting mantras to find the Tao in sound, or meditating on a picture or an object to discover the essence of the TAO through sight. Once the spark of the TAO through active contemplation arises in any method, you must capture it and cultivate it to lead you back to the source.

 

There is no this method is right or that method is wrong. Every method is possible when the empty mind is combined in the equation to help you derive the essence of the Tao from the object of meditation.

 

Everyone is right. That's the real answer. The combination of the elements within our own bodies dictate what methods we can pursue at a particular time. For some we are too weak, for others too strong, and for another we may be lacking a certain virtue at the time required. Because one thing doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work at ALL. You may simply be currently incompatible with the requirements for arousing the spark of the TAO in the object of your meditation.

 

Since both philosophy, meditation, doing nothing, being, non-being are all a product of US, thus a product of the TAO, with the right concentration they can all yield the spark of the Tao, of which you must hold on to when it shows itself in order to further cultivate it into a fire. So again everyone is right.

 

Edited December 28, 2011 by effilang

[Lao Tzu]

There is no this method is right or that method is wrong.

hehe, I understand your points.

But, there are wrong methods, otherwise, the sages should have been shut up. lol

[Protector]

effilang read the whole thread from start to finish

dawei read the whole thread from start to finish

anamatva read the whole thread from start to finish

lifeforce read the whole thread from start to finish

lao tzu read the whole thread from start to finish

sinfest read the whole thread from start to finish

 

know what, somebody lock the thread and let people make their own opinions without putting words in each other's mouths

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sinfest

[Marblehead]

Let us not forget a very basic concept:

 

WoW! You went and got way too heavy for my little pea brain. Hehehe. Now I need to go meditate! Darn!!!

[Thunder_Gooch]

The Tao is the energy which powers the rotation of all galaxy's, the light shining from all stars, the movement of everything down the motion of the orbiting electrons and other subatomic particles of all atoms, it the energy which powers the minds of all beings and gives rise to conscious experience and thought itself. It powers the transformation of universe at every level as time progresses. At least that is my understanding of the Tao.

 

 

A person who achieved unity with the Tao would have reached Godhood, and have a complete and total understanding of the ultimate nature of reality. A spiritually immortal being with no need for a physical body. Or at least I would think as much.

 

That is the end goal of meditation for me, even though I doubt I will ever reach it.

 

If that isn't what unity with the "Tao" means (to the sages of old), then I guess I am not looking for the Tao but rather something else. I think a lot of others here searching for the same thing I am.

 

If what I seek isn't unity with the Tao(according to the sages of old), then I know of no better name or way to describe it.

Edited December 28, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[joeblast]

If nothing else, agitators sometimes serve to make us state the foundations upon which our core beliefs rest. just like teaching, it is instructive to oneself to purposefully review and re-state goals, beliefs, efforts.

[Taomeow]

If nothing else, agitators sometimes serve to make us state the foundations upon which our core beliefs rest. just like teaching, it is instructive to oneself to purposefully review and re-state goals, beliefs, efforts.

 

Yeah, but sometimes (like in this case) they just make me think, sheesh, another dragging-down-the-level-of-discussion effort in full swing?

 

Why are certain Tundra Eskimos always teaching West Congo dwellers how to stay cool on a hot summer day? Why do certain sons insist on teaching their father how to make babies? Why do certain bicycle salesmen insist on selling bicycles to fish? Why do certain hammer owners strive to turn everybody into their obliging nail?

[三江源]

Yeah, but sometimes (like in this case) they just make me think, sheesh, another dragging-down-the-level-of-discussion effort in full swing?

 

Why are certain Tundra Eskimos always teaching West Congo dwellers how to stay cool on a hot summer day? Why do certain sons insist on teaching their father how to make babies? Why do certain bicycle salesmen insist on selling bicycles to fish? Why do certain hammer owners strive to turn everybody into their fucking nail?

 

It's a really good question. I take the interpretation of it from literature showing the old paradigm of the town mouse and the country mouse: the provincial will always attempt to teach the urbane, because he simply is unable to recognise what constitutes urbanity. ie the small minded cannot perceive what others know.

 

The subset cannot perceive the chief structure.

 

I try to excercise tolerance and humility in the face of it, but instead I am brought face to face with my own impatience yet again, and endlessly sigh over the tendency toward bluff, crass, patronage.

 

That tendency to talk rather than to listen that defines the one who doesnt learn much... and then I monitor it in myself..

[Protector]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbCywIvo8gk&list=LLh0j2L-0NpgodVxMvhFe5ow&index=2&feature=plpp_video

[joeblast]

Yeah, but sometimes (like in this case) they just make me think, sheesh, another dragging-down-the-level-of-discussion effort in full swing?

 

Why are certain Tundra Eskimos always teaching West Congo dwellers how to stay cool on a hot summer day? Why do certain sons insist on teaching their father how to make babies? Why do certain bicycle salesmen insist on selling bicycles to fish? Why do certain hammer owners strive to turn everybody into their obliging nail?

true, true...but usually that comes about after the reiterations have been said, the foundations affirmed (yet again)...after that, it devolves into an annoyance, which was why past the first page or two this thread was veritable threadlock material.

[Protector]

...and that's the story of how Tao Bums learned nothing

[Marilyn]

In reading this thread, I see the Yin and Yang of the discussion. One man's path says no to meditation and another says yes, but Zen...usually Zen Buddhism, following the road of the emptiness, so that one could be useful. The still mind is a good path, to listen. If one feels unable to discern the silence, perhaps meditation is not along your path. I hope along my journey I would waive to both of you, whether or not one meditates, it isn't the point. As long as the emptiness is useful, there is purpose in it. Often when you walk low to the earth, you begin to understand that the game itself is pointless, as though we are waiting for something else. Maybe it is a smile to greet us.

[Marilyn]

How can one who has not attained the Tao themselves, dictate the spirit of the Tao?

 

You are all wrapped up in concepts. We think because we grasp the words of the sages in their writings, that we fully comprehend the unquantifiable experiences from which they draw their inspiration to communicate?

 

The mere words we possess in our diction can never truly accurately represent genuine spiritual experiences. I've had them, they are beyond the senses. When you try to speak of them, your tongue blocks. A great artist and a sage can but hope that with his words at least something of the whole is understood. It is not by chance that every teaching is an instruction, it is not by chance that they hurry us into practice. Because there is only one truth, and they know damn well their personal interpretations will never accurately represent the reality of what Tao is. Every teaching is an instruction to practice, so that you may with hard work yourself too experience it.

 

No wise sage claims their way is the way. Not Buddha not Lao Tzu. They all show you the path, but the destination, the TAO always remains a personal experience. Leading you to the path is the best they can do.

 

To sit here and discuss what is the Tao and what isn't, you both look like fools on either side of the fence. Who here is an immortal or such a high level meditator that they have the right to preach to others of what the Tao is. When did you last enter the void, when did non-duality engulf you and embrace you completely, that you are so certain of your convictions.

 

Let us not forget a very basic concept:

 

 

 

 

Everything that is a product of the Tao, which sits below in the hierarchy has the essence of the TAO embedded in them.

 

That means that any manifestation of the 2 poles and 4 phenomena has the potential to lead you back to the Tao, after the essence of the TAO, THROUGH meditation/concentration/contemplation has been pin pointed in the product of the phenomena.

 

That means that sound, thought, feeling, sight, smell... any product of the 4/5 elements THROUGH concentration can have the essence of the TAO discovered within them. Whether you're chanting mantras to find the Tao in sound, or meditating on a picture or an object to discover the essence of the TAO through sight. Once the spark of the TAO through active contemplation arises in any method, you must capture it and cultivate it to lead you back to the source.

 

There is no this method is right or that method is wrong. Every method is possible when the empty mind is combined in the equation to help you derive the essence of the Tao from the object of meditation.

 

Everyone is right. That's the real answer. The combination of the elements within our own bodies dictate what methods we can pursue at a particular time. For some we are too weak, for others too strong, and for another we may be lacking a certain virtue at the time required. Because one thing doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work at ALL. You may simply be currently incompatible with the requirements for arousing the spark of the TAO in the object of your meditation.

 

Since both philosophy, meditation, doing nothing, being, non-being are all a product of US, thus a product of the TAO, with the right concentration they can all yield the spark of the Tao, of which you must hold on to when it shows itself in order to further cultivate it into a fire. So again everyone is right.

 

[Marilyn]

the action of inaction, is a very difficult concept for many, who seem to be full of actions that produce no action. I enjoyed what you wrote...very much.

[kundalini]

Many ancient sages said that meditation is a bad way for pursue Dao.

BS

[Lao Tzu]

BS

What is BS?

[Marblehead]

Maybe it is a smile to greet us.

 

[Marblehead]

What is BS?

 

BS = Bullshit = something said is not true or it is twisted to make it untrue.

[Lao Tzu]

BS = Bullshit = something said is not true or it is twisted to make it untrue.

I got it, thank you.

[Lao Tzu]

BS

How did you know it is bullshit?