Meditation is not a good way for practising

[deci belle]

I think meditation is thinking of some images or some place on/in one's body with your mind.

zen is thinking of the philosophy.

 

I thought I liked your earlier statement, but this one indicates a serious misconception of both meditation AND zen on your part, mr Lao! Hope you get some good definitions from the bums!

 

Meditation is not thinking … it is not-thinking. As for zen, zen is already before the first thought.

[deci belle]

How does one observe one's mind without following thoughts?

 

Thanks,-

Retro

 

hi retro❤

 

Before one endeavors to observes one's own mind, one is unaware of the endless flow of thoughts overflowing prior thoughts and on and on. They come from absolutely nowhere and return to nowhere. Long before it is actually possible to see where they come and go, it is necessary to just observe the flow.

 

When you sense something, it is immediate. You know it. That knowledge doesn't employ thought. You use this sensing knowledge to observe the conscious knowledge. The sensing mind doesn't think; it just knows. The conscious mind doesn't know; it just thinks.

 

Use the shining sensing mind to observe the scattered conscious mind. When you see the thoughts, you just note them without following them. Observe them without going along with them unawares. It takes years of practice …that's why it's called practice.❤

[deci belle]

The reason quiet meditation is not a good way for practicing is because it is carried out divorced from the reality of everyday ordinary situations. That is why it is correctly referred to as a temporary expedient. It is a step above faith and belief practiced by those of the lowest vehicle, because here, observation of mind itself has no intermediary aspect. One uses mind to observe mind.

 

But still, this level of practice, however developed— even to the level of those who can leave their bodies, project forms and perform miracles, this is still not beyond self. Those who mistake their empty conscious spirit for unborn selfless awareness are as common as those who are unaware of their own buddha nature. Obviously, they are one and the same.

 

As for meditation based on selfless adaption to ordinary circumstances, this is considered the highest vehicle of adepts and enlightening beings. This is seeing through phenomena without denying their characteristics and using the power of insight to go along with the inherent potential of any given situation without following the ordinary course of evolution in order to respond effectively and precisely without involving oneself in the matrix of karmic evolution and created energy.

 

Those who can discern how to use and develop the shining nonpsychological mind to observe and neutralize the randomly circumstantial psychological mind, in terms of a temporary expedient that can be practiced to the point of transcending the creative itself, those individuals have the potential to become wizards.

[retrochronyx]

Thank you for your response Lezboyenne!

 

You've given me plenty to contemplate.

 

There has to be a starting point to this path, whether there is an ending point or not.

There also has to be a sequence of milestones or achievements one can use to gage one's progress.

 

Where can I find information to get myself started down this path most effectively?

 

Hope I'm asking the right questions.

 

Thanks again for your help!

-Retro

[thelerner]

 

.. meditation based on selfless adaption to ordinary circumstances, this is considered the highest vehicle of adepts and enlightening beings. This is seeing through phenomena without denying their characteristics and using the power of insight to go along with the inherent potential of any given situation without following the ordinary course of evolution in order to respond effectively and precisely without involving oneself in the matrix of karmic evolution and created energy.

This is great and gets to the heart of the matter.

[deci belle]

Oh thank you, thelerner!!❤

 

Thank you for your response Lezboyenne!

 

You've given me plenty to contemplate.

 

There has to be a starting point to this path, whether there is an ending point or not.

There also has to be a sequence of milestones or achievements one can use to gage one's progress.

 

Where can I find information to get myself started down this path most effectively?

 

Hope I'm asking the right questions.

 

Thanks again for your help!

-Retro

 

All I can add, Retro, is that mind itself has no beginning and therefore no end.

 

Just observe and note minding with mind in everyday ordinary situations without following thoughts unawares.

 

Though it may take years, decades or lifetimes, the first aspect of entry is finite, which results in entry into the inconceivable. This is the universal entry-level experience of first fathoming one's mind and realizing the nonexistence of creation, death and self. It is said "the beautiful girl's (conscious awareness') first trip is short; the second, long." This means that after reaching the end of the "first trip", entry into the inconceivable is endless.

 

One's starting point is the will to enlightenment— or rather recognizing the will itself. You don't decide anything, nor do you do anything. The center, Earth, your impersonal inner intent, is already "the reality whereby origin and completion are effected".

 

The true intent of the human body, which has no location, contains the impulse of life within it. This is the Center, Earth, the yellow woman, the go-between. It is in the region of the southwest, stillness. This is not a psycho-physiological state.

 

I only mention this because the basis of transformative practice, which is a natural process, starts with clarity and ends in openness. So begin with clarity, open innocence, sincerity and truthfulness and naturally attain the flowing stillness' quality of adaption. With this beginning there is no end to transformation of self and other. One's inner function extends as the quality of enlightening being unbeknownst to others. No one notices because it's real.

 

The real itself is inconceivability. Reality is natural freedom in the midst of chaos. Enlightening being is operating the light of creation in reverse, in order to follow the Way. The taoist classics, often mistaken as philosophical works, allegory and prognostication are all based on reality. Seen in this light, the taoist classics and talks by the chan patriarchs can be used effectively to discern the real from the false.

 

But realize that if not for the false, there would be no way to find the real, therefore enlightening being actualizes…

…meditation based on selfless adaption to ordinary circumstances, this is considered the highest vehicle of adepts and enlightening beings. This is seeing through phenomena without denying their characteristics and using the power of insight to go along with the inherent potential of any given situation without following the ordinary course of evolution in order to respond effectively and precisely without involving oneself in the matrix of karmic evolution and created energy.

 

 

 

 

ed note: remember to thank thelerner!!

Edited December 8, 2012 by deci belle

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I'verecently undertaken "active meditation"... quite difficult to describe... sometimes i feel light headed, yet not... Basically, i am allowing myself to become autonomous and simply observe the events during this practice...

 

 

The first time i was successful was very disorienting. i still get a little disoriented but i dont practice often either. I would imagine that the disorientation would jsut take getting used to is all.

 

After i feel fulfilled, i reflect on the experience for a moment and then just continue on with my day as if nothing happened.

[retrochronyx]

I'm grateful for the efforts each of you have put into answering my question!

 

Might I be correct in saying "enlightening beings" are those involved in the process of becoming enlightened?

 

And "seeing through phenomena without denying their characteristics" would be seeing the underlying cause that is driving and event?

 

And "using the power of insight to go along with the inherent potential of any given situation" would be making the best of a particular situation?

 

And "without following the ordinary course of evolution in order to respond effectively and precisely without involving oneself in the matrix of karmic evolution and created energy" would be not being reactionary, but responding in a way that benefits all concerned?

 

Hmmm..."without following thoughts unawares" will take some practice since I'm a habitual rabbit chaser and always actively attempt to connect all the dots in order to remembe and use new information, as I seem to now be demonstrating in the entirety of this reply.

 

I tend to puzzle everything through to some logical conclusion.

The logical conclusion being that new info has to tie into what I already know in order to be remembered and useful.

 

The following quotes seem to sum up how I've viewed the mind in the past:

From: Pirates of the Caribbean ”You're off the edge of the map, mate. Here there be monsters.” ... Hector Barbossa

From other sources: The mind has a map of life experience, it’s the edge of that map that defines the map, not it’s contents, and it's the edge of the map to which one adds new experience and knowledge.

From experience: When others say it can’t be done, you’ve just found an opportunity.

 

So, I'm at the edge of my map, hoping to learn a better way of living, thinking, being.

 

I often feel light headed during my efforts at meditation, I also feel like my head has expanded past my skull, somewhat like my head is like an expanding balloon, not painful, just odd, and slightly distracting.

 

I want to thank everyone again for your responses.

Hoped for a long time to find others to discuss these things with.

 

-Retro

[deci belle]

Yes, Retro, enlightening beings are activating enlightened qualities as a matter of being and responding to ordinary situations.

 

Insight does not see cause, as Cause does not exist. Enlightened qualities are by virtue of the Causeless. One simply knows the essential potential expressed and embedded in any created cycle is there. It's not so much that one sees it and follows it, rather one sees the created aspect and does not follow that. That is seeing through phenomena without negating their characteristics. What is driving the event is creative evolution by virtue of the totality of karmic momentum. Enlightening beings simply don't go along with it as they adapt to conditions as they are.

 

One does not make the best of a situation because one does not not make anything of a situation. One responds, that's all. By not going along in terms of unaware habitual speculation on conditions, one is not acting on potential either. In not using potential, one absorbs potential. Intent then seals this away. At this point, one only need avoid intellectual activity in the aftermath of stealing potential. That is the technical taoist term. All one need do is adapt to conditions in a natural, unaffected, spontaneous, genuine, artless, sincere, relaxed, open, effortless, ingenuous and unpretentious manner.

 

One responds in a manner unique to the situation. The karmic situation itself determines what is appropriate. It is not a matter of conventional attitudes and solutions dictated by social contracts and limited interpretations of, say, compassion, or what might possibly be beneficial. One is naturally free to be audacious, ingenuous, unpredictable …but only in the course of a natural mood of precision. Action is spontaneous in response to the conditions independent of self or other. It depends on the situation.

 

Haha!! You can leave the dots or pick them up at will— when you are circumspect, it really doesn't matter. What matters is not acting unawares. Habitually connecting the dots is relative to… the thinker. This may or may not be relative to the speculative strategy long prized by the ego-awareness. When we become aware of the habit energy, it takes years of subtle concentration to gradually eliminate ego's habitual relationships with external stimulus and patterns of behavior that only serve to prop up the self-reflective identity.

 

Self-refinement is just activating the will which inexorably, steadily, unwaveringly, impersonally applies a permanent pressure of attrition on the props of ego. Ego's valid functions do not and never have required the use of props. Ego is essential to existence— it just needs to find its correct place, and stay there.

 

All cultures' formative moralities are maps. You and people like you are ones who have the will to explore. All the authentic teachings are really for explorers. It is not about good and/or bad. Finding out what is always before dualities is needed in order to gain objectivity— but no one stays there, no one functions there.

 

Enlightening being is the application of the experience of impersonal objectivity to everyday ordinary situations; taking over creation and stealing potential unbeknownst to anyone. Reality is no more or less deadly than delusion— because there is no difference between them whatsoever. Wisdom makes it possible for explorers to keep their karmic place in delusion so spotless, so impeccable, so lacking in maintenance, that it becomes effortless for them to leave the known for the unknowable without being noticed~ so they do.❤

 

 

 

 

ed note: one too many "the" in the penultimate paragraph; sex-up the last paragraph

Edited December 8, 2012 by deci belle

[deci belle]

I'verecently undertaken "active meditation"... quite difficult to describe... sometimes i feel light headed, yet not... Basically, i am allowing myself to become autonomous and simply observe the events during this practice...

 

 

The first time i was successful was very disorienting. i still get a little disoriented but i dont practice often either. I would imagine that the disorientation would jsut take getting used to is all.

 

After i feel fulfilled, i reflect on the experience for a moment and then just continue on with my day as if nothing happened.

❤!!

[retrochronyx]

Thanks deci belle. (Sound Engineer?)

 

I feel like I've just finished reading the spiritual "Art of War". (Your last post)

 

You're so fluent in this!

 

This involves strategy on a much deeper level than I ever imagined, and I haven't even assimilated some of what appear to be the basic mindsets/concepts involved.

 

I see a light at the end of a very long tunnel, and I'm at what feels to be the very beginning.

It's not a pleasant feeling, but it is encouraging to find where I stand, and that there is greater body of knowledge available on this subject than most have been taught to believe exists. (I don't have to remain ignorant)

 

I do have my battles with ego, and some days it absolutely wears me out.

 

Thank you for being patient, and opening my eyes with kindness.

 

-Retro

[deci belle]

heehee!!❤ i'm just a little loud, that's all❤❤ Inner truthfulness and sincerity are the only prerequisites to develop one's own inherent quality of openness. And a strategy in the service of one's duties in the spirit of freedom, yes. Don Juan Matus once said that the only things a warrior has to work with in his bid with Power is will and patience.

 

Regardless of our individual realization and sphere of understanding, we are each surrounded by a circular nadir and horizon extending into the unknown. There is no end to this mysterious world.

[GrandmasterP]

Good posts decibelle.

Pedantic this but 'circular nadir'?

How does that work?

[retrochronyx]

Glad to have provided some levity.

 

I used to be loud, but really value peace and quiet now.

 

Duality seems to broaden the complexity and mystery.

 

I like to reduce as many fudge factors as I can before making a move so I'm less likely to make a wrong turn and thus waste time.

But I suppose making wrong turns adds to one's experience as well, as in "let me tell you why we do things this way".

 

What's the best way to put ego in it's place and keep it there?

Battling ego just seems to make it stronger. And so, maybe I just answered my own question, at least in part.

Revising the question, how does one put the ego in it's place and keep it there without engaging it in battle?

 

Karma sounds a little like inertia. Any similarities between the two?

Analogies seem to help me grasp ideas/concepts more quickly/easily.

 

-Retro

[deci belle]

What's the best way to put ego in it's place and keep it there?

Battling ego just seems to make it stronger. And so, maybe I just answered my own question, at least in part.

Revising the question, how does one put the ego in it's place and keep it there without engaging it in battle?

 

Karma sounds a little like inertia. Any similarities between the two?

Analogies seem to help me grasp ideas/concepts more quickly/easily.

 

Actually it is in its place, but it has assumed duties that it needs to be relieved of. We relieve ego of these entitlements by not applying them. We just give ego less and less to do.

 

One must never battle mind by mind~ that is insanity. So we just do not employ intellect. Outwardly like a dunce, observe the errant human mentality. If it is inactive …or seems to be… it may be fooling you. Just observe mind by mind with subtle concentration. There is no substitute. Endeavor to observe the internal dialogue whether it is rushing by or just trickling. Just observe.

 

You know how it feels to be observed. It's unsettling. Just observe without following thoughts' seductive ways and without letting up; whether walking, standing, sitting or lying down, maintaining a subtle consistency is the unsurpassed method of self-refinement.

 

As for karma, it is your life right now. You exist by virtue of karma right now. Karma is the matrix of creative evolution. Ordinary people go along with creation, perpetually feeding the momentum of karma, sustaining the energy of creation; enlightening beings, going in reverse, say goodbye to their lives without regret.

 

Since created life is karmic, if you want to be free from the killing energy of artificial polluted deluded existence, one must be able to say goodbye to the source of beginningless ignorance in order to turn oneself around and follow the light of creation in reverse to recover the source of innate living awareness in your own body.

 

Karma is living and dying. Enlightening being is activating the unborn awareness. This awareness is intact and functioning right now, only intellect is using it to create illusion befitting selfish views relative to situations.

 

If you have the will to let the life you know bleed to death without blinking in order to discover what has been glowing all along, then just observe mind without following thoughts.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

it is as though reading my own words from another time In the end, how things change, always fascinating Observation is an interesting skill used so frequently by most, and yet without necessarily realizing how much deeper it can go... what directions it can go! (I am missing the ability to insert a paragraph here, windows 7 is fine, but 8 makes it a burdensome block of text) I have to ask you though, what about those who keep coming back knowingly and willingly? Returning to the ""killing energy of artificial polluted deluded existence"" over and over, even having the will to let go, truly even letting go each life, to willingly return in spite of enlightening yourself and even others, knowing and retaining the source of innate living awareness always.... Still returning... don't have to, don't need to. don't always even want to, but for what? I wonder...

Edited December 10, 2012 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[joeblast]

it is as though reading my own words from another time In the end, how things change, always fascinating Observation is an interesting skill used so frequently by most, and yet without necessarily realizing how much deeper it can go... what directions it can go! (I am missing the ability to insert a paragraph here, windows 7 is fine, but 8 makes it a burdensome block of text) I have to ask you though, what about those who keep coming back knowingly and willingly? Returning to the ""killing energy of artificial polluted deluded existence"" over and over, even having the will to let go, truly even letting go each life, to willingly return in spite of enlightening yourself and even others, knowing and retaining the source of innate living awareness always.... Still returning... don't have to, don't need to. don't always even want to, but for what? I wonder...

the enlightenment of all sentient beings, of course the more your mind clings to human nature, the more likely you are to see that as an insurmountable endeavor

[retrochronyx]

How I ever gave ego any liberties or entitlements in the 1st place is uncharted territory for me.

Giving ego less to do, when it feels like a natural/normal mental process for ego to step up to the plate and score another home run for the team, appears a difficult task. The dark side is so integrated and familiar. It's like ego is an indwelling imposter, which to me, feels like it is me, and so, is naturally accepted as me.

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[deci belle]

Yes, or be open to presence right now and forget the flow of inner dialogue until something comes up~ then respond impersonally by assessing the situation objectively.

 

That's a way to do it too.

 

haha!! "score another home run for the team" hahaha!!❤ Ya, it's a feeling (for me), that if I did that (step up to the plate), I will never find out what happens, in the end (if I interfere with arbitrary karmic actions). So we learn to ditch the habitual arbitrary thoughts and actions, so they are not habitually there— so we don't habitually follow them and reap their self-perpetuating consequences.

 

It's more like, "What are these poor miscreants doing?!! …we'll see how will this turn out." Our lifetimes are the result of encounters❤

[retrochronyx]

I know people who say they are gennerally unaware of thinking. They say they just are.

My parents drilled me with "Think before you do or say anything".

So, I do think before doing anything.

It's like sitting in two different seats at alternate times.

I sit in the thinking seat, then I sit in the action seat.

There now appears to be three separate seats in what you're describing, observe, think, and action.

To have inner dialog, one generally has to think.

On the surface, it appears that in order to observe, one has to be able to both think and observe.

I tend to be quite invested in whatever train of thought I am working through.

To be otherwise is to be distracted, and not putting my full focus and energy on coming to a valid conclusion.

I do observe what I am thinking as the process proceeds, but maybe I'm so engrosed, I'm not seeing the whole picture?

Maybe my current method of observing is akin to micro-managing, and is too focused?

I'm wondering how I might back off and be less invested in the thought process.

Am I making any sense?