Meditation is not a good way for practising

[Lao Tzu]

And I still disagree with this understanding. The state of wu wei is very similar to 'empty mind' meditation. And if one's mind is capable of such it is a very natural state to be in. What is natural for one person may not be natural for another.

So I said that so many people misunderstood the Dao.

The state of wu wei is definitely different to 'empty mind' meditation.

[Lao Tzu]

You truly believe that your data evaluation with your little mind did lead you to the truth and that you succeeded but thousands of other people over centuries with the combined effort of data evaluation with their minds PLUS meditative effort and insight with meditative training have failed???

The key is what a real immortal looks like?

Surely not like a person who can blow out a candle in a distance.

[doc benway]

What is meditation....??? Can somebody tell me in words...???

 

I posted this earlier

 

Thank you.

So, I need to know the exact English definitions of both of them, so as to give my opinions on them.

Can you please do that for me?

 

No, I cannot.

 

Zen and meditation do not lend themselves to exact definition.

 

To define means to limit, to encapsulate something within a boundary of some sort, to capture the essence and meaning of something in a phrase, concept, or idea. Zen and meditation are what is left when one drops words, concepts, and ideas. They are not limited or encapsulated. Certainly there are meditative exercises that can be defined, such as the Daoist methods I practice and the the few examples you mentioned, but I don't consider that meditation - just practice.

 

Zen and meditation are a state of being that can occur when defintitions and the process of measurement, judgement, and analysis are not actively operating but that is not to say that this is a definition of what Zen or meditation are. This is what they are not. If you were to practice either, there would be no need to discuss defining them.

 

I think one problem is that we are talking about multiple different things here when we discuss meditation.

 

One way to "define" meditation is to refer to all of the wide variety of "meditative practices" that have been developed by the various religious and spiritual traditions - Daoist methods, Buddhist methods, HIndu methods, Christian methods, and so on, in an effort to help bring the practitioner closer to the truth, closer to Dao, closer to Buddha-mind. As is correctly pointed out by Lao Tzu, these are practices that use the mind in a variety of ways. Lao Tzu is simply making the point that ANY practice of the mind, in one sense, is not an effective way of approaching spiritual cultivation.

 

Why?

 

Because when "I" am practicing, "I" am reinforcing that there is an "I" there who is doing something. The paradox is that to truly approach Dao (Buddha-mind, Wu Wei, whatever you want to call it), the "I" must be dropped. Wu wei is to live in a way in which the "I" does not interfere. There is truly no one there to practice, no one there to achieve anything. So the practicer must let go even of the practice at some point as well as the "goal" and just be. But this is really hard, the mind does not want to let go because it considers itself to be too important. It can't imagine not being in the driver's seat because that is all it knows how to do. That is exactly it's purpose, why it exists. It is the thought that assumes the role of the "thinker" and the "doer." Many of us encounter this obstacle at some point in our training and how we move beyond that is a personal journey that we must each take alone. Peter Fenner puts it beautifully when he says: "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!"

 

So I do understand and agree with what Lao Tzu is trying to say (at least I think that I do) and at the same time I disagree. Why? Because - "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!" Everyone who reaches the point where they realize that practices are not necessary, only gets there after some period of time spent doing practices of some type. Maybe there are a few people who can skip the practices altogether - maybe even Lao Tzu is one, but that's a rarity. Furthermore, it might be better to say that the practices do not cause us to reach the goal because at some point we realize that there is no goal. We are already the goal, we simply need to drop the illusion that we need to become something other than what we already are. We don't need to do anything, we simply need to drop the distractions and obstacles and the truth is already shining through all of it.

 

And the other critical thing to recognize is that if you haven't had this personal realization, then it sounds like a load of arrogant and condescending bullshit. It is not helpful for us to tell others that they are already what they need to be. Unless they have that personal experience, it is a meaningless and unhelpful statement. In fact, it can make matters worse. It can create frustration which further reinforces the need to be something else, and do something to achieve that realization. But you can't do anything about it is that very "you-ness" that is getting in the way. It is truly paradoxical. The best thing we can do to "help" others is to work with them within their frame of reference, which is why all of these "meditative practices" have been developed in the first place! And whether they work or not is mystery. Some folks "get it" and some don't. And whether the practices or help causes them to get it is a mystery. But the fact that we are on this path tells us that there is a seed of awakening present and I do think it makes sense to water that seed for ourselves and others.

 

 

Now, there is another way of using the word meditation - it is the one popularized by chan/zen and the one referred to by Jiddu Krishnamurti. This use of the word meditation is not referring to any practice. It is not referring to any "doing" of the mind or body. It is referring to the state of being that we label in a variety of ways:

Unconditioned awareness

Buddha-mind

Original nature

Wu Wei

One with Dao

Brahman

Christ consciousness

Ayn soff

Non-dual awareness

Undivided light

And on and on and on....

 

It is the state that we hope to "achieve" through all of our practices. It is a state of being that exists in the absence of mental constructs. It seems to be the emptiness out of which everything arises. It defies definition because it has nothing to due with the discriminating mind. It cannot be captured in words, concepts, or thought. You are all welcome to challenge whether or not it exists, whether or not it is possible to achieve it, what it should be called, which definition is correct, and on and on.... And it's all fine that everyone has their opinion, and everyone is completely wrong, including me, because it is no-thing, it transcends our abilities to conceptualize, it transcends our opinions, but it is the no-thing-ness from which conceptualization arises. I'll stop throwing words at it now because it is a waste of time.

 

Suffice it to say that I believe this state of being is what Lao Tzu is pointing at.

It is what I call meditation.

It is what the Zen and Chan masters and Jiddu Krishnamurti refer to as meditation.

For consistency I refer to all of the "meditative practices" as just that - practices.

True meditation is what they are pointing us to.

 

And I think the other point that Lao Tzu is making is that this state of being should perfuse our every action and our every waking moment. It should not just be something we do when we sit quietly in a room for 40 minutes a day. But that takes a very long time and a lot of practice. And we can simply start by sitting and doing absolutely nothing else.

Precisely sitting - 打坐.

[Lao Tzu]

I posted this earlier

 

 

 

I think one problem is that we are talking about multiple different things here when we discuss meditation.

 

One way to "define" meditation is to refer to all of the wide variety of "meditative practices" that have been developed by the various religious and spiritual traditions - Daoist methods, Buddhist methods, HIndu methods, Christian methods, and so on, in an effort to help bring the practitioner closer to the truth, closer to Dao, closer to Buddha-mind. As is correctly pointed out by Lao Tzu, these are practices that use the mind in a variety of ways. Lao Tzu is simply making the point that ANY practice of the mind, in one sense, is not an effective way of approaching spiritual cultivation.

 

Why?

 

Because when "I" am practicing, "I" am reinforcing that there is an "I" there who is doing something. The paradox is that to truly approach Dao (Buddha-mind, Wu Wei, whatever you want to call it), the "I" must be dropped. Wu wei is to live in a way in which the "I" does not interfere. There is truly no one there to practice, no one there to achieve anything. So the practicer must let go even of the practice at some point as well as the "goal" and just be. But this is really hard, the mind does not want to let go because it considers itself to be too important. It can't imagine not being in the driver's seat because that is all it knows how to do. That is exactly it's purpose, why it exists. It is the thought that assumes the role of the "thinker" and the "doer." Many of us encounter this obstacle at some point in our training and how we move beyond that is a personal journey that we must each take alone. Peter Fenner puts it beautifully when he says: "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!"

 

So I do understand and agree with what Lao Tzu is trying to say (at least I think that I do) and at the same time I disagree. Why? Because - "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!" Everyone who reaches the point where they realize that practices are not necessary, only gets there after some period of time spent doing practices of some type. Maybe there are a few people who can skip the practices altogether - maybe even Lao Tzu is one, but that's a rarity. Furthermore, it might be better to say that the practices do not cause us to reach the goal because at some point we realize that there is no goal. We are already the goal, we simply need to drop the illusion that we need to become something other than what we already are. We don't need to do anything, we simply need to drop the distractions and obstacles and the truth is already shining through all of it.

 

And the other critical thing to recognize is that if you haven't had this personal realization, then it sounds like a load of arrogant and condescending bullshit. It is not helpful for us to tell others that they are already what they need to be. Unless they have that personal experience, it is a meaningless and unhelpful statement. In fact, it can make matters worse. It can create frustration which further reinforces the need to be something else, and do something to achieve that realization. But you can't do anything about it is that very "you-ness" that is getting in the way. It is truly paradoxical. The best thing we can do to "help" others is to work with them within their frame of reference, which is why all of these "meditative practices" have been developed in the first place! And whether they work or not is mystery. Some folks "get it" and some don't. And whether the practices or help causes them to get it is a mystery. But the fact that we are on this path tells us that there is a seed of awakening present and I do think it makes sense to water that seed for ourselves and others.

 

 

Now, there is another way of using the word meditation - it is the one popularized by chan/zen and the one referred to by Jiddu Krishnamurti. This use of the word meditation is not referring to any practice. It is not referring to any "doing" of the mind or body. It is referring to the state of being that we label in a variety of ways:

Unconditioned awareness

Buddha-mind

Original nature

Wu Wei

One with Dao

Brahman

Christ consciousness

Ayn soff

Non-dual awareness

Undivided light

And on and on and on....

 

It is the state that we hope to "achieve" through all of our practices. It is a state of being that exists in the absence of mental constructs. It seems to be the emptiness out of which everything arises. It defies definition because it has nothing to due with the discriminating mind. It cannot be captured in words, concepts, or thought. You are all welcome to challenge whether or not it exists, whether or not it is possible to achieve it, what it should be called, which definition is correct, and on and on.... And it's all fine that everyone has their opinion, and everyone is completely wrong, including me, because it is no-thing, it transcends our abilities to conceptualize, it transcends our opinions, but it is the no-thing-ness from which conceptualization arises. I'll stop throwing words at it now because it is a waste of time.

 

Suffice it to say that I believe this state of being is what Lao Tzu is pointing at.

It is what I call meditation.

It is what the Zen and Chan masters and Jiddu Krishnamurti refer to as meditation.

For consistency I refer to all of the "meditative practices" as just that - practices.

True meditation is what they are pointing us to.

 

And I think the other point that Lao Tzu is making is that this state of being should perfuse our every action and our every waking moment. It should not just be something we do when we sit quietly in a room for 40 minutes a day. But that takes a very long time and a lot of practice. And we can simply start by sitting and doing absolutely nothing else.

Precisely sitting - 打坐.

The point is what the majority of guys here are doing when they are meditating.

We should discuss based on this point. Does it make sence?

[konchog uma]

Meditation is not the real Dao, because it is "doing something with your mind", and it is not natural. In other words, meditation is conflict with Dao.

 

haha i don't buy it.

 

washing your dishes and reading your paper is doing something with your mind. Waking up and getting out of bed is too. So are all the things we do throughout the day. Do you suggest a mindless shuffling around all day without accomplishing anything? Or should we just sit there and try not to meditate?

 

mostly i find that you are identifying a so-called problem without suggesting what the correct way is. So you are saying what is wrong without offering a solution.

 

And on top of that i just disagree 100% with you.

[doc benway]

The point is what the majority of guys here are doing when they are meditating.

We should discuss based on this point. Does it make sence?

Yes, it does make sense.

However, I think that there are ways to approach the subject that are more likely to lead to a productive discussion.

To begin with a statement that "meditation is not a good way for practicing" begins by telling everyone that they are wrong.

Then to go on to say that "...meditation is a bad way for pursue Dao" for puts people on the defensive by telling them that they have been wasting their time.

On top of that, you attribute these assertions to "many ancient sages" without giving more than one brief quotation.

 

It might be more productive to begin by asking people what sort of methods they practice, how it helps them, discuss alternatives, and so forth. At this point, you have simply set up a dynamic of conflict and tension. Just my opinion.

[Lao Tzu]

haha i don't buy it.

 

washing your dishes and reading your paper is doing something with your mind. Waking up and getting out of bed is too. So are all the things we do throughout the day. Do you suggest a mindless shuffling around all day without accomplishing anything? Or should we just sit there and try not to meditate?

 

mostly i find that you are identifying a so-called problem without suggesting what the correct way is. So you are saying what is wrong without offering a solution.

 

And on top of that i just disagree 100% with you.

So I said most of people do not understand Dao, misunderstanding WuWei.

WuWei doesn't mean mindless doing something, it means doing anything without caring. So in such a state, everthing is OK, no desire, no worry, no pain, always happy. That is coming back to nature, be united with Dao.

 

Is that a kind of solution?

[Thunder_Gooch]

So I said most of people do not understand Dao, misunderstanding WuWei.

WuWei doesn't mean mindless doing something, it means doing anything without caring. So in such a state, everthing is OK, no desire, no worry, no pain, always happy. That is coming back to nature, be united with Dao.

 

Is that a kind of solution?

 

 

I was under the impression that WuWei meant automatic, effortless, natural, reflexive action. Automatically doing the best possible action for a given task, without thinking about it, or second guessing it, automatically, effortlessly and perfectly.

 

The last time I was in a fight I believe I experienced WuWei, I did not need to think twice about what needed to be done, it happened automatically, naturally and reflexively.

 

I've heard a lot of people refer to it as being in "the zone".

Edited December 25, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Wells]

The key is what a real immortal looks like?

Surely not like a person who can blow out a candle in a distance.

No, more like a person who can ignite a candle in a distance!

[konchog uma]

So I said most of people do not understand Dao, misunderstanding WuWei.

WuWei doesn't mean mindless doing something, it means doing anything without caring. So in such a state, everthing is OK, no desire, no worry, no pain, always happy. That is coming back to nature, be united with Dao.

 

Is that a kind of solution?

 

i meditate in wu wei, and anyone who claims that they actually do understand dao is full of it.

 

there's more to being united with dao than that IMO. That seems like an oversimplification to me.

 

I'm glad you're reading the old texts and having thoughts of your own, but i'm gonna stick with my meditations

[Protector]

No one is saying to stop meditating, just saying there's more to it

[Marblehead]

 

The state of wu wei is definitely different to 'empty mind' meditation.

 

Are you sure? Have you ever attained either of these two states?

[Marblehead]

So I said most of people do not understand Dao, misunderstanding WuWei.

WuWei doesn't mean mindless doing something, it means doing anything without caring...

 

or doing nothing if there is nothing that needs be done. At this time one slips into mindless meditation. I think you are confusing your misunderstandings with the perceived misunderstandings you see in others.

[konchog uma]

No one is saying to stop meditating, just saying there's more to it

 

well thats what i think that quote from the neidan text was referring to, but its hard to tell, taking 6 lines out of context.

 

Thanks for your point of view, i think a lot of people meditate "wrong" but then with time they figure out what they were missing and start doing it "right" so its all just process.

 

and i don't mean to be argumentative but i thought mr tzu was saying the meditation was contrary to dao, and that we should not do it.

[Lao Tzu]

Yes, it does make sense.

However, I think that there are ways to approach the subject that are more likely to lead to a productive discussion.

To begin with a statement that "meditation is not a good way for practicing" begins by telling everyone that they are wrong.

Then to go on to say that "...meditation is a bad way for pursue Dao" for puts people on the defensive by telling them that they have been wasting their time.

On top of that, you attribute these assertions to "many ancient sages" without giving more than one brief quotation.

 

It might be more productive to begin by asking people what sort of methods they practice, how it helps them, discuss alternatives, and so forth. At this point, you have simply set up a dynamic of conflict and tension. Just my opinion.

I thought I know the definition of meditation. So I post this.

But then, I found that most people think it it difficult to describe what meditation is, so I have to ask to discuss meditation based on fact.

[ChiDragon]

Lao Tzu....

What your your definition of 無為（Wu Wei)....??? I would like to hear it from a native in mainland China....

[Lao Tzu]

No, more like a person who can ignite a candle in a distance!

No...

[Lao Tzu]

Are you sure? Have you ever attained either of these two states?

Yes, I think I am sure.

I did both of them.

But now, I only try to did WuWei.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[Lao Tzu]

or doing nothing if there is nothing that needs be done. At this time one slips into mindless meditation. I think you are confusing your misunderstandings with the perceived misunderstandings you see in others.

Can you tell me which part I am misunderstanding?

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I think I am sure.

I did both of them.

But now, I only try to did WuWei.

What do you mean by "Wu Wei"....???

[Lao Tzu]

What do you mean by "Wu Wei"....???

WuWei doesn't mean mindless doing something, it means doing anything without caring. So in such a state, everthing is OK, no desire, no worry, no pain, always happy. That is coming back to nature, be united with Dao.

[Marblehead]

Yes, I think I am sure.

I did both of them.

But now, I only try to did WuWei.

 

I'm really not trying to mess with you. Just trying to get some clarification. The more you post the more I think you are being honest in what you are trying to say but even the title of this thread was a challenge to many of the members here because meditation is an important part of their life and their path.

 

I would agree that if one can attain the state of wu wei meditation would no longer be a necessary part of one's practice because they would be gaining the same benefits of meditation that can be gained in the 'non-doing' condition of wu wei.

 

Can you tell me which part I am misunderstanding?

 

The importance many of the members here place on their parctice of meditation, regardless of the practice. Just saying that meditation is not a good way for practicing the Dao is pretty much of an insult to those who find benefit in their meditation practice.

 

I do meditate on occasion. It is not a practice though. For me it is returning to the Valley Spirit, the condition of yin, the place of rest. I have no goal when I meditate and that is why I call it 'empty mind', a short period of time when I allow my mind to be quiet.

[ChiDragon]

Lao Tzu....

Do you interpret the Tao Te Ching yourself or with the help of the native scholars....???

[Protector]

Let's try this differently

Why is meditation a good way of practicing Dao?

[Marblehead]

WuWei doesn't mean mindless doing something, it means doing anything without caring. So in such a state, everthing is OK, no desire, no worry, no pain, always happy. That is coming back to nature, be united with Dao.

 

Oh!, those words hurt. But I do understand what you are meaning to say and I basically agree with you.